How to deal with So'mer and Ophelia

[Alcibiades]

Hi all. Jumped on the Malifaux bandwagon with the release of 2E and have been having a ton of fun playing a wide variety of Masters and Factions. Guild's Sonnia was my first crew and Guild remains my "go to" faction. I've had varying success against most other Masters and Factions but absolutely no joy against either So'mer or Ophelia. I have tried a variety of Masters and crew combinations but the result remains the same regardless of Strat or Schemes; a nasty beating. Between an inevitable numerical advantage, the extra APs generated by Reckless and Drunk n Reckless, the wicked damage output from Dumb Luck etc. and the mass heals available through Slop Hauler my crews just get annihilated in short order. Throw in the hand demolishing and tar pit Skeeters and an unpleasant experience turns even uglier. Whatever scheme markers I manage to get down are usually removed by game's end. It doesn't help that our Gremlin player is very good in his own right and knows his crew and their capabilities inside out.

I have a couple of tricks left to try with Sonnia with Traps and Austringers with Witchling Handler but I would welcome any hints, tips, insights for use with any of the Guild Masters/crews (though I don't have Hoffman, Ryle, Watchers, Guardians or Wardens).

[Dirial]

That's tough to answer with so little context. Are you using appropriate terrain? In my experience, Gremlin crews aside from Pigs fold pretty quickly if you take out Slop Haulers, and neither Sonnia nor Perdita have much trouble with that. The latter can be a great shooting deterrent herself with Faster Than You.

The Flame Wall is absolutely essential to keep Sonnia alive vs Ophelia. My activations with her usually are Ancient Runes for Ca, Focus, blast Lenny or Francois or something, Flame Wall in front of Sonnia.

[Myyrä]

If your opponent is significantly better than you, you won't win in Malifaux. There is no easy shortcut to victory. You just need to practice and learn.

[zFiend]

If your opponent is significantly better than you, you won't win in Malifaux. There is no easy shortcut to victory. You just need to practice and learn.

That's true. I would recommend you ask your opponent what he would have done post-game etc. The post-game chats are the best. 

[Dogmantra]

In terms of general advice though, Gremlin crews are often very shooty, and being in cover will make it a lot harder for them to get off those huge bursts of damage, or simply engaging them (most models have a 1" melee range, so if you can get someone with a 2" and sit them more than 1" away from an enemy, they can't shoot you and they can't melee you without walking closer and using up an AP)

Anything that targets Wp is your friend. Very few gremlins have a higher Wp than Df, off the top of my head that's Francois, Pigapult and of course Zoraida. To counteract that, Lenny has a whopping 1Wp, and those Skeeters with 7Df only have 3 Wp. In Guild there's one ability that jumps to mind that targets Wp... Pine Box. Lenny ain't getting out of that (perhaps a good use for Frame for Murder - box up Lenny with the sucker Death Marshall?)

Which brings me to my next point: we love our key models. Slop Haulers and Lenny particularly bring so much support for the rest of the crew, but if you take them out gremlins lose a lot. Without a reliable source of mass healing, gremlins can't afford to get their 3rd AP with reckless as nearly as often, and any luck triggers become a much bigger liability. It's not gonna be Lenny every game, but if you can identify the key support and their weaknesses early, taking them out will really mess over your opponent's plans.

Also, if Som'er is doing his summoning thing, if you can take out any of the bayou gremlins he's summoning off, or the slop hauler he's healing with, it will suddenly be a lot less effective.

[zFiend]

Problem with all that is simple: reckless. Gremlins can and will move, focus and shoot. Thus negating the benefit of cover. 

As much as they do shoot that death Marshal ain't making it alive in the gremlin gunline to actually Pinebox anyone. 

Add in dumb luck damage and the weak damage is usually more than enough to take out even masters / enforcers / Henchmen with a single attack. 

So if the gremlin player knows at all what she/he is doing. You won't get near them alive.

[Dirial]

Yeah, "attack Wp" doesn't work so well for Guild. Similar issue with Lilith.

If you want to outshoot them, there really is no way around Perdita. She's the only one who can do it. Sonnia has her chances, but if you don't place your wall smartly... Ophelia just hunts her down.

The new, very fast Witch Hunters might be able to help, but binding them in melee means McCabe and Hounds. No other chance.

[zFiend]

Yeah, "attack Wp" doesn't work so well for Guild. Similar issue with Lilith.

If you want to outshoot them, there really is no way around Perdita. She's the only one who can do it. Sonnia has her chances, but if you don't place your wall smartly... Ophelia just hunts her down.

The new, very fast Witch Hunters might be able to help, but binding them in melee means McCabe and Hounds. No other chance.

The problem with tie them up in melee is also that there are Francois. Ophelia loses nothing in melee. Raphael just pushes out and continues to shoot you. 

So rush them with McCabe and Hounds just means dead Hounds and a dead McCabe. They can't withstand the amount of damage dumb luck hits them. 

So yeah. Perdita + double Austringers is probably the only way to deal with gremlins. Sonnia might be able to depending on terrain and how much she can manipulate it with the walls. 

[Dogmantra]

Problem with all that is simple: reckless. Gremlins can and will move, focus and shoot. Thus negating the benefit of cover.

as opposed to moving and double shooting with the same effectiveness, or focus and shooting for a and probably a cheatable damage flip (which is huge because bayou two card). The cover won't stop you getting shot, but it denies AP, and helps negate AP advantage.

[zFiend]

Problem with all that is simple: reckless. Gremlins can and will move, focus and shoot. Thus negating the benefit of cover.

as opposed to moving and double shooting with the same effectiveness, or focus and shooting for a and probably a cheatable damage flip (which is huge because bayou two card). The cover won't stop you getting shot, but it denies AP, and helps negate AP advantage.

Fair enough. 

Though the main problem I see is that once you do actually get shot it hurts more than the Guild can probably handle. Thus doing the counter damage while remaining hopefully for a while at least untouched until you've broken the lynch  pins is: Perdita + double Austringers. 

[PanzerHarris]

I've enjoyed a lot of success against Gremlins with Lady Justice and the aforementioned Austringers. 

The cloud of Bayou Gremlins is easily whittled down by Austringers who can strike from outside line of sight. Justice can get away with similar tactics with the Unimpeded - she can charge across forests and similar that block lines of sight, and if she wants a Gremlin dead, it gets dead. 

Other than that, the 'Hoff Smash' crews I've mentioned previously have done a real job. Terrifying, heavy armour and hard to wound takes the edge off the incoming Gremlin fire, Hoffman heals everything up like no-one else can, and then even if only 2 of Langston, Rail Golem and Peacekeeper make it to Gremlin lines, they will still redecorate the battlefield in bits of little green man.

[Dogmantra]

I'm not a guild player, so I won't try to argue against anything else, just giving my perspective from what screws me over when I'm playing.

Could Niño be worth it to take out some enemies before you're in retaliation range? Maybe even Hans, so if the gremlinball gets engaged you still have a chance of taking out the key targets. Plus, he can give slow to a Slop Hauler at a long range. They already have a hard enough time keeping up due to the 2 AP cost of their heal, so give 'em slow and they have to reckless if they want to heal, and they move that turn.

[zFiend]

Well no. Probably not. I have to disagree about that. You are forgetting squeal. Justice hits once and the gremlin is gone. Justice won't be taking down any of the masters all that easily, then there is Stilts, healing etc. Last time I played justice against Som'er I got Boomered with 12 damage to the face on 1st activation of turn 2 if I recollect correctly.

[Dirial]

Yeah... Justice is not that bad against gremlins if you keep her away from the enemy Master... counter-intuitive with her, I know. At least she has the range to engage them... On the other hand, Perdita just does it better against the little green annoyances. Hoffman might be a good bet. Haven't tried that yet.

[PanzerHarris]

Squeal's not that hard to deal with. You can back them into a corner or pin them down in amongst their own models. Just remember they have it when you in for the attack run. 

And 12 damage on a shot? That's what Badge of Office is for.

"Hah! 12 damage!"

*Plink*

"Nah, 1 damage. Now, swinging back, 5/6/8 with pos flips on damage, and ooh look there's another Ram..."

[zFiend]

Well yeah gladly I had that upgrade. Justice always has that upgrade under my play. But I wasn't quite prepared to lose it turn 2 start.  

then again as much as you can try to game the squeal trigger if the opponent knows how it works then he/she probably isn't bumping into her/his own models.

Also the damage of 12 from a ranged attack so either Justice double walks over there for the positive flip or she charges and no more positive flip..

[Alcibiades]

Thanks for the comments guys, especially zFiend who seems to appreciate all the tricks Gremlins have to make one's life difficult. I have thought of and tried most of the tactics suggested without positive result. There just doesn't seem to be a way to challenge the number of APs a Gremlin player can access each turn.

Just to recap a bit let me point out and stress what I see to be where the troubles lie. When I refer to Gremlins, I am referring to Som'er and Ophelia builds only. I have played Brewmaster once and while he was tricky, he was failry manageable and I haven't experienced Ulix or Ma Tucket yet.

1) Gremlins are cheap so there are a lot of them even without So'mer's summoning ability. This means that at 50SS Gremlins will almost always have 2 or 3, if not more, extra models which means a minimum of 4-6 extra APs; 6-9 if they go reckless. This allows the Gremlin to wait and see where his opponent moves his heavy hitters and either avoid or counter. With a modicum of effort, So'mer can have four summoned and fully healed Bayou Gremlins by the end of Turn 2 generating an additional 12 AP from the third turn on and 10 APs on the second Turn. As most Guild crews seem to average out at around 7-8 models that leaves the Gremlins original 50 SS crew to deal with 4 or 5 Guild models. Barring a positioning error, the Gremlin can keep whichever models he choses safe until Guild has finished activating. A careless Gremlin player might find himself in a bit of trouble if Guild win the following initiative and have models that can companion, but it would require, as I suggested, a very poor or very high risk move on the Gremlin's part.

2) Most Gremlins are Ht 1 so can often duck completely out of sight. Combined with Reckless or Drunk and Reckless means that an entire Gremlin crew can be out of sight to their opponent requiring a move to get into a position for a ranged attack. Forgot about charging with most models as there is no visible target. So, in many cases you get a single, unfocused shot which is rarely enough to kill even the lowliest Bayou Gremlin.

3) While there is a down side to Dumb Luck, the ability to throw out a ton of damage is fantastic. A replaceable Bayou Gremlin can quite easily inflict 6 points of damage at the cost of 3 inflicted. While that might not take down a larger model, there is likely another Gremlin nearby who can potentially do the same thing and take the target off the board. Worst case, the model is still there at the end of the turn and wins initiative. Perhaps that model can relocate or take down the Gremlin who offered insult. So what? There's plenty more available and an important resource has been reduced to dealing with a 3 SS model. How about Francois with his 23" melee threat dealing out a potential 20 WDs and costing him his life. However, with rare exception he can take out any model he so desires in one Turn. He costs the same as Nino, 7 SS, less than a Witchling Handler and has a killer ranged attack as well.

4) Reckless/Drunk and Reckless makes them almost unstoppable in Scheme pools where interaction is required. Deliver Message is a gimme unless the opposing Master stays well away from the Green menace which is hard to do or is prepared to sacrifice the Master to deny the points.

5) So'mer's 2 point Skeeters are one of the best models in the game at any points value. They can tie up virtually any model in Guild with impunity. Lady J and Perdita have the best chance of killing the thing but to do so would require the expenditure of some pretty high cards if the Skeeter with DF 7 wants to keep you engaged. In both cases Lady J or Perdita would require a 13 or RJ to get away if the opponent has a 13 to burn. In addition to just shutting a model down, the Skeeter can reliably do 4 points of damage each activation or drain your hand of moderate/high cards using So'mer's Pull My Finger ability. 

6) Gremlins have a huge amount of healing. The Slop Hauler alone can heal up to 4 models every turn for 2 AP and can remain out of sight/range etc. until required. There is no need to ever expose the Slop Hauler to enemy fire. In at least 10 games against So'mer/Ophelia I think, iirc, that I have managed to get one shot off at Slop Hauler. Those who claim to have taken Slop Hauler out makes me think their opponent is not very skilled with Gremlins or perhaps overly aggressive. In my experience, he remains in the rear until I am too busy with other models to worry about. In my experience, he has usually earned his keep by the end of Turn 2, well before most models are in range.

The above is not an exhaustive list of all the things So'mer and Ophelia can do to ruin your day. Our Gremlin player is quite candid about the Guild. They trouble him not a whit. The only Master our Som'er/Ophelia player worries about at all is Ramos, on a good day and to a far lesser degree, Sonnia and Colette. However, on the advice given I have looked at Hoffman and he and his crew certainly have more survivability than other Guild crews but I remain concerned about the AP difference. All of that said, I will continue to draw sword and pistol against them and strive to find the answer. As I said, I've still got a couple of tricks to try out.

 

Cheers lads, and Long Live the Governor!! Guild for Law, Order and Justice!!

[Dirial]

ad 2) Not that easy when the Guild model is Ht 2.

Generally, we know the tricks you listed. You didn't comment on my mention of Perdita, with 2 Austringers.... did you try that?

Cheers lads, and Long Live the Governor!!

Boy, have I bad news for you....

[Myyrä]

You seem to have a bit too negative view of your prospects of winning against gremlins. They are indeed good a dishing out hurt, but fortunately they are not very good at taking it barring few exceptions. You also seem to be slightly overestimating their damage. Francois won't be doing 20 damage to anything in one turn unless he gets really lucky and bayou gremlins will be missing more than hitting, even against targets in the open (where you really shouldn't be).

Reckless is indeed borderline OP, but drunk and reckless comes with such a high cost, that your opponent can't afford to use it carelessly if he wants his gremlins to live. Nino is one of the best answers for stopping enemy from completing deliver a message, but he is not the only trick available. When he is combined with Abuela any master can be safe from interact actions assuming, the table has a good position to put Nino in.

Even though Skeeters have Df 7, they don't really have that many wounds. If your opponent wants them to survive your attacks, he is forced to use high cards as well. You should also keep in mind that walking and killing are not the only way to get out of engagements. Pushes work well too and there is relatively little your opponent can do to stop those. Skeeters also have a pretty horrendous Wp, so you can also take care of them using Death Marshals or Lawyers.

Any amount of healing won't bring back dead models. Focus your fire and Slop haulers will be much less useful. Also, they can't stay back the whole game, and when they do advance you can hunt them down with Austringers.

[CannibalBob]

 

6) Gremlins have a huge amount of healing. The Slop Hauler alone can heal up to 4 models every turn for 2 AP and can remain out of sight/range etc. until required. There is no need to ever expose the Slop Hauler to enemy fire. In at least 10 games against So'mer/Ophelia I think, iirc, that I have managed to get one shot off at Slop Hauler. Those who claim to have taken Slop Hauler out makes me think their opponent is not very skilled with Gremlins or perhaps overly aggressive. In my experience, he remains in the rear until I am too busy with other models to worry about. In my experience, he has usually earned his keep by the end of Turn 2, well before most models are in range.

The Slop Hauler is one of the most fantastic models that Gremlins have access to.  He can really do a huge amount of stuff.  However, one thing to remember that his Feed the Piggies action only has a range of 3", takes 2 ap, and he only has a walk of 4.  So he can only heal a model that is within 7" of him at the start of his activation.  He also generally needs to use reckless to get enough AP to reach a target.  Usually it is not terribly easy to keep targets in range of a Slop Hauler without a lot of planning and clumping up.  It also makes it difficult to keep a Slop Hauler completely safe and out of sight since he has to be close to heal his targets.  If he is doing much more than holding a Slop Hauler in the rear to heal up for a summoning machine then you should have an opportunity to kill the little guy.

Gremlins are a very good faction, and Som'er is probably the most versatile master in that faction.  There is no scheme or strategy that he and his crew are not good at.  So naturally it is going to be a difficult proposition to face an experienced player who is good at the game and is piloting a Som'er crew.  But Gremlins are also not unbeatable.  Bayou Gremlins are the primary scheme runners and they die to a stiff breeze.  Also remember that Drunk & Reckless inflicts 2 points of damage on a Bayou Gremlin - which means they can only use the ability once before killing themselves unless they get healing.  If they are out running schemes they will generally not be using that ability very much.  Target them and kill them whenever you can.

[Omenbringer]

I've enjoyed a lot of success against Gremlins with...Austringers. 

The cloud of Bayou Gremlins is easily whittled down by Austringers who can strike from outside line of sight.

Pretty much this. If you aren't using Austringers (or even better a pair of them) in Guild then you are really hampering your options. Against Gremlin's in particular this is even more true. They offset a lot of the advantages that a Som'er player typically enjoys.

Using Som'er as an example, the Austringers allow you to slow or negate his Summon Factory (one of his more common builds) by targeting those Bayou Gremlin's (likely wounded already) near him that are used to Fuel Get Your Bro. Without a Bayou Gremlin to summon off of, the action becomes dead weight on his card, which will either necessitate Som'er's movement or a Bayou Gremlin that is upfield. Against a more elite crew (Ophelia or a Som'er Enforcer squad), the Austringers allow you to get at the Slop Haulers (or other support models) that keep them running at full capacity.

While the recommendation to target Wp receives a lot of voice, it really isn't as effective as it used to be for Gremlins (1st edition). A seasoned Gremlin player that suspects to face a Wp skew list has many ways to place themselves back on even footing.

What I would recommend (aside from a pair of Austringers) are models that are self reliant, i.e. dont depend upon cheating to do their thing with high minimum damage flips. This way not having a control hand isn't such an issue.

[Ludvig]

Not sure if this was mentioned but Sonnia and a Child can shut off parts of the board to give you more bitesized servings of gremlin or prevent them scheming. On some terrain setups you can shut down an awful lot of board. Goes well with austringers too.

To elaborate on what Dirial said earlier ht1 won't hide a ht 1 model if one of the models is ht2 so there is basically no difference between two ht2 models shooting each other or one being ht1. It will however hide your hounds from regular gremlins for instance.

[zFiend]

The Gremlins aren't an easy faction to go against. And while on paper the whole Hoffman df6 armor spam sounds like a good idea it can and could come down to this: You have the big guys with big armor. You will run out of cards. Som'er player will not run out of cards. If his little boys die, he gets more cards, he can also make you both discard those cards of yours and then you are at a huge disadvantage due to Bayou Two Card. So it comes down to death by a thousand cuts approach. Also a huge problem with Gremlins is, again I say Reckless. They can once they are locked in combat just Double focus and hit to make sure they get those of the highest damages. 

So with Guild, I still think that if you want to take on the Gremlin horde there are two good options. Perdita or in some cases Sonnia, Sonnia does suffer though from the fact that she will go down if exposed and the Gremlins should be able to find that exposure spot and take her down from there. While Perdita and double Austringers puts that Gremlin horde on the move which should even out the odds a bit. Though you might want to take a Guardian for that Df 9 Perdita just in case. One hit from a Slop Hauler and you are down to df4 for good and those 10 wounds won't be lasting long against Dumb Luck. 

There are a few things that are way overboard in my opinion on Gremlins. Reckless and Dumb Luck, Dumb Luck could have been something else than a completely swap of the damage track. Maybe +3 or something. But a complete swap opens up a ridiculous Red Joker damage. 

[Math Mathonwy]

  The post-game chats are the best. 

Gaming: a bit like sex.

 

 

...

wait, what?

[zFiend]

You talk after? I usually just do a high-five and leave for the gym. After all Arnold said the two best activities for your health are humping and pumping. I follow it to the core. Order and everything.. Or was pumping and humping..? Might explain why my relationships don't quite last. Well who's to question Arnold.