Hoffman Power Loop and conditions

[Bloaty]

So this is has confused a bit for a while now. Hoffman's Power Loop and having conditions that modify stats. I dug around and couldn't find anything so I came here.

 

So say a model is in the Loop and then gets Cracked from Von Schill which gives him -1 Df. Would this mean that with Power Loop, the model can take another's Df and then get -1 to the stat or take the model's Df and ignore the -1 Df. We've been playing as they get -1 Df to whatever they pick because they replace the stat and still get -1 Df because they always have the condition.

 

Similarly, how does it interact with Appetizing from Slop Haulers? Is their Df 4, then they pick a number to replace it with Power Loop or do they have Df 4, pick a new number with Power Loop, but then it changes back to 4 because the condition is still there even after they use Power Loop at the start of the duel? We've been playing this as Appetizing takes precedent because its always changing their Df to 4 as long as they have it.

 

Kinda awkward, so any help would be great.

 

Thank you in advance.

[Dirial]

I would rule that the same as you did. I agree that it could benefit from some clarification, though.

[santaclaws01]

It's only the stat that is affected not the duel. The value you power loop in for the duel is unaffected by something that lowers the acting models stats.

[solkan]

Power Loop says:

 

“Power Loop: At the start of a duel, this model may use the printed numerical Df, Wp, Ca, Sh, or Ml (ignoring suits) from another friendly model with Power Loop instead of its own.”

 

But the definition of Stat Modifiers isn't easy to get around:

 

Stat Modifiers

These are the simplest way to modify a duel or flip. Stat modifiers are presented as a bonus or penalty to a stat under certain conditions. For instance, a model might gain +2 to its Sh on any Attack against a target within 6”. In these cases, the Sh of the model is increased accordingly, but only for the purposes of resolving the duel.

Alternatively, the model might receive a bonus to the total, rather than the stat. In these cases, simply add the bonus to the total whenever it is calculated.

 

So you're replacing the value that the Stat Modifiers get applied to, not replacing a modified stat value with an unmodified one.

[zFiend]

It's only the stat that is affected not the duel. The value you power loop in for the duel is unaffected by something that lowers the acting models stats.

 

I somehow thought it might be this but I have no idea how it actually goes. Could use some clarification for sure since there was the whole Swarm and Power Loop question a while back too. 

[wizuriel]

IMO the condition lowers the models stat. So if I had a df 6 the condition would lower my df to 5. Imo anyone trying to use that models df would also be 5 instead of 6. Since power loop uses another models stat though you wouldn't suffer from the condition since it modified your stats not theirs

[Icemyn]

My Df5 model has cracked and is Power Looped with a Df6 Model. 

When something attacks me I am in fact Df4 and that never changes, but I am choosing to use Df6 for the duel.

Cracked and Appetizing both alter the base stat and Power Loop allows you to use something other than your base stat in a duel. 

 

Not the only time that Power Loop can be problematic as zFiend has noted. 

[Myyrä]

IMO the condition lowers the models stat. So if I had a df 6 the condition would lower my df to 5. Imo anyone trying to use that models df would also be 5 instead of 6. Since power loop uses another models stat though you wouldn't suffer from the condition since it modified your stats not theirs

Other models using that model's stats would not get the penalty because power loop allows you to use printed stat. It would be pretty silly if you could loop in a Guardian that has El Mayor buff.

[Dirial]

Other models using that model's stats would not get the penalty because power loop allows you to use printed stat. It would be pretty silly if you could loop in a Guardian that has El Mayor buff.

 

Silly... or great?

[wizuriel]

Other models using that model's stats would not get the penalty because power loop allows you to use printed stat. It would be pretty silly if you could loop in a Guardian that has El Mayor buff.

 

Gah didn't read printed stat. My bad

 

edit: I agree that stat modifications can really use some errata on how they work around conditions and referencing other model's stats

[PanzerHarris]

Think it all hinges on the actual card - 'may use the printed stat of another model instead of its own'. 

 

If a model can't use its own stat, such as when conditions like Appetizing or Protection of Metal are in play, then it can't use a stat from the Power Loop either. 

 

If a model can use its stat but has a condition such as Cracked or El Mayor, then it can replace that stat with a Power Loop stat and the Power Loop stat is modified by the condition. 

 

That's how I've ruled and then explained it when asked previously.

[santaclaws01]

In the stat modifiers example it says "the Sh of the model is increased accordingly". Just the models Sh is affected. Not any Sh duel the model takes.

[wizuriel]

In the stat modifiers example it says "the Sh of the model is increased accordingly". Just the models Sh is affected. Not any Sh duel the model takes.

 

The problem is the example in the BRB is very specific that the condition only improves the SH on attacks against a model within 6inches. Not many examples are as specific or clear cut. 

[santaclaws01]

Why the increase is granted doesn't matter. It specifically says the models stat is increased, not the duel total that involves that stat.

[Leoneth]

My issue with this is that power loop replaces the models printed stat is replaced by the other models printed stat.  If you're only replacing the printed stat, you're not overwriting the modifiers or adding the other model's modifiers to your own.  You replace your printed stat with it.  It is now your printed stat and subject to your modifiers for the remainder of the action.  Hence if you were d5 with cracked and you were power looped with a d6 model, you would be d5.  Does this make sense?  To me, you are not using the other models stat.  You are making your stat a copy of it.

[Dirial]

My issue with this is that power loop replaces the models printed stat is replaced by the other models printed stat.  If you're only replacing the printed stat, you're not overwriting the modifiers or adding the other model's modifiers to your own.  You replace your printed stat with it.  It is now your printed stat and subject to your modifiers for the remainder of the action.  Hence if you were d5 with cracked and you were power looped with a d6 model, you would be d5.  Does this make sense?  To me, you are not using the other models stat.  You are making your stat a copy of it.

That's exactly how it works, per the recent FAQ.