What Are The Easiest And Hardest Schemes To Achieve

[SpectreEliteGaming]

Math's post nails exactly how I feel about the schemes. Outflank and Protect Territory could be removed from the game and I wouldn't miss them at all. Protect Territory can only be denied constantly by board wipes and is a lame unexciting auto include whenever it comes up. Even with Ashes, if your opponent sniffs out your outflank you are screwed.

The other ones Math mentions are what I consider the "gimmicky bullshit" schemes - ones that are average for most but laughingly simple for some masters - not much you can do about that.

Spring the Trap is practically as useless in the game as Outflank but JD laughs at it (therefore I consider it gimmicky and can nail it consistently because no one thinks you'd ever take trap). I'm not a fan of distract and I think its just an AP sink, but my opinion I guess.

Frame is a good in theory but in actuality it doesn't achieve what it seems to want to do. If you cater around not killing your opponent's models if you have a killy crew, you are screwing yourself more than if you just bite the bullet, play normally to your strengths and accept the 3vp loss. As such, I think of it as an unfun "penality" rather than a legit scheme. I ignore it and move on - from what I understand this is a common view - so I find it unfun, regardless.

The rest are pretty legit - not a fan of LitS but I have taken it from time to time.

From what I can tell, the rest of the opinions about schemes vary from player to player, besides outflank (spring trap, imo) and protect territory. The game would be much more challenging and overall better without them taking up potential scheme slots.

I roll my eyes everytime Pro Terra comes up. It is rhe worst scheme in the game... Breakthrough is totally legit though.

[Jewomie]

I'll echo outflank, spring the trap, and take prisoner as I have a hard time with all three.

 

if distract is in the pool, I'm taking it, and likely scoring all three points from it. I love it, it can be really easy if you time it right, or easy but resource intensive if you just spam it and hope for the best.

 

Also, I think you guys make a good point about bodyguard scoring a little late in the game for most people. It seems that any time we are running short on time and have to call the game, the person who ends up losing took bodyguard and we are all left wondering if they would have still lost had we played to turn 5. I like the idea of scoring it starting on turn 3 that someone mentioned. you could theoretically keep it to where you only score 2 points even if you announce it on turn 3, and score that last point for announcing it.

[Icemyn]

I think the biggest problem with the schemes is that you cannot score full VP from all of them regardless of whether or not they were revealed. Not being able to hide both killy schemes and bluff marker schemes is a real detriment to the game as a whole. With the way schemes are structured now you can easily figure out your opponent's two hidden schemes immediately. 

 

In a tournament games you have to be able to score 3vp from both of your schemes. Otherwise you are at a significant disadvantage both in game and in the tournament as a whole.

 

The easiest tier of schemes are any of the schemes that can be accomplished by one model on it's own. These are the easiest because not only can one model do them there is very little your opponent can do to stop you from completing them without hurting themselves. These schemes include: Protect Terr, Cursed, Plant Evidence, Deliver, Breakthrough, and Power Ritual.

 

The next tier of schemes are the schemes that can potentially be done by one model but more often require a concerted effort to complete. In addition to that the opponent has some say in these schemes either by defending the target or not just playing into your plan. These schemes include: Assassinate, Bodyguard, Distract, Alits, Entourage, Make them Suffer, Murder Protege, Plant Explosives, and Frame for Murder.

 

The final tier of schemes are the ones that are completely out of your control. These are the schemes that require a large amount of investment on your part while being reasonably easy for your opponent to disrupt. These schemes include: Outflank, Spring, and Take Prisoner.

 

I gave these weights assuming a blank crew with no keywords. Obviously every master is going to shift these ratings in one direction or another. For instance I have taken Outflank/Plant Ex every time they are available, but that is because Ashes and Mech Rider aren't fair models. 

 

Given a spread of 6-9-3 (IMO) I think Wyrd/Justin did a pretty good job of balancing the schemes over all.

 

I would have preferred something like this though:

 

Assassinate

This scheme is scored when the enemy master is killed or sacrificed. 
Hidden:

If this happened on or before turn three score 3vp. 2vp if turn four. 1vp for every turn thereafter.

 

Revealed:
If this happened on or before turn four score 3vp. 2vp for every turn thereafter.

 

ALITS

This scheme is scored at the end of the game. 

Hidden: If there are two scheme markers on the center line score 1vp. If there are four scheme markers on the center line score an additional 2vp. 

 

Revealed: Score 1vp for every scheme marker on the centerline. 

[Dogmantra]

Also, I think you guys make a good point about bodyguard scoring a little late in the game for most people. It seems that any time we are running short on time and have to call the game, the person who ends up losing took bodyguard and we are all left wondering if they would have still lost had we played to turn 5. I like the idea of scoring it starting on turn 3 that someone mentioned. you could theoretically keep it to where you only score 2 points even if you announce it on turn 3, and score that last point for announcing it.

At some point during 2e beta it didn't have any bonus scoring clauses and basically just gave you a point per turn (starting on turn 2) as long as it was a) announced and b.) the model was still alive and 8" from deployment.

 

I'm not sure why it was changed and I'm sure there was a good reason (the added half-wounds thing is nice for more unkillable models), but I preferred the gist of this, at least. Partly for the exact reason that it starts scoring earlier.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I agree with the general gist of Icemyn's post.

 

From my personal observation, first let me say I like the nature of the revealed vs unrevealed schemes, but I do think there was a little bit of something lost when the shift from any scheme possible scheme (M1E)  to a pool (M2E)  occurred. Let me say I like the Pool mechanic because it forces at least some difference in scheme choices, unlike in 1.0 when even in most of my pick up games the same 2 or 3 schemes were just chosen over and over. Hoever there are some things I wish were slightly different.

 

The first is while it is awesome and I would love to keep the ability to reveal vs not reveal schemes, I really wish it was still possible to get full points even if you didn't reveal the scheme. I believe Breakthrough is like this (though I might be wrong as I don't have my books handy). If you reveal it you can get three points for less effort, though you are annoying your plan to the opponent. You can still get 3 however for getting more scheme markers down. That is sort of how I wish more of the schemes were, although I know balancing would be tricky, in that it would be possible to get full points for not revealing, but it would take more effort then revealing did. 

 

The biggest issue being that even unrevealed schemes aren't really unknown, as it is VERY hard to bluff a scheme in this game, and it got even harder to do so once the game length was reduced to 5 turns, as in the best designed scenarios, you don't really have time to use AP on things like moving and interacting to bluff scheme markers, or try to convince the opponent you have assassinate, so they don't use their master to the highest efficiency. The only way I've found bluffing to work well is if something like spring the trap or plant explosives are in the mix along with something like protect territory so that the schemes laid down could be multi use.

 

Secondly I know why they are there, and I appreciate there being more schemes, but aside from ALitS, I really wish there weren't schemes tied to suits. I think the best games I've played scheme wise were those designed by a TO who didn't pay attention to the suit/number schemes, and just picked 4 different schemes to make the encounter. The suit schemes come up over and over, and they tend to be the ones more responsible for the same schemes getting taken over and over I find, especially protect Territory.

 

If a redesign were ever contemplated, I think I'd make it so that there were 13 schemes for the red suits (Rams and Masks) and 13 schemes for the Black suits (crows and Tomes) and then the joker scheme, so that aside from AlitS there would no constantly repeating schemes, and the pool would be almost totally different every time one played.

[moxypoo]

This is a tough question because it really depends a lot on crew composition.  However, I can make these generalizations from my experience in my two factions.

 

 

Outcasts

Easiest: Bodyguard - the Outcasts have some good healing and very tough models making this fairly easy to achieve. 

Protect Territory - we also have good area control, especially with Jack Daw and the Viks

Breakthrough - Outcasts have some nice fast models, including some Incorporeal ones that make Breakthrough pretty easy.  Ashes and Dust is also great at this.

 

Most difficult: Spring the Trap and Plant Explosives - these are both fairly difficult because we don't have many models that can simply place scheme markers like the Mechanical Rider.  Instead, Finish the Job and Rat Catchers with Don't Mind Me are our best tools here.  Rat Catchers don't find a home in my crews unless I'm using Rats and an Obedient Wretch as well.

Take Prisoner - I've always found this to be difficult simply because you telegraph what you're doing unless you manage to accomplish the scheme during the last game turn. 

 

Neverborn

Easiest: Breakthrough, Power Ritual, Deliever a Message - Silurids.  'Nuff said.

Most Difficult:  Spring the Trap and Plant explosives - Similar reasons to the Outcasts.  It's tough to accomplish these schemes unless you have models that can place scheme markers or have Don't Mind Me.

 

 

Note that a common theme here is that the easiest schemes are the ones that don't rely on any sort of interaction with my opponent, while the harder ones rely on my opponent to move his models in a certain way or expose a model that I must kill.

[tmod]

I agree with the general gist of Icemyn's post.

From my personal observation, first let me say I like the nature of the revealed vs unrevealed schemes, but I do think there was a little bit of something lost when the shift from any scheme possible scheme (M1E) to a pool (M2E) occurred. Let me say I like the Pool mechanic because it forces at least some difference in scheme choices, unlike in 1.0 when even in most of my pick up games the same 2 or 3 schemes were just chosen over and over. Hoever there are some things I wish were slightly different.

The first is while it is awesome and I would love to keep the ability to reveal vs not reveal schemes, I really wish it was still possible to get full points even if you didn't reveal the scheme. I believe Breakthrough is like this (though I might be wrong as I don't have my books handy). If you reveal it you can get three points for less effort, though you are annoying your plan to the opponent. You can still get 3 however for getting more scheme markers down. That is sort of how I wish more of the schemes were, although I know balancing would be tricky, in that it would be possible to get full points for not revealing, but it would take more effort then revealing did.

The biggest issue being that even unrevealed schemes aren't really unknown, as it is VERY hard to bluff a scheme in this game, and it got even harder to do so once the game length was reduced to 5 turns, as in the best designed scenarios, you don't really have time to use AP on things like moving and interacting to bluff scheme markers, or try to convince the opponent you have assassinate, so they don't use their master to the highest efficiency. The only way I've found bluffing to work well is if something like spring the trap or plant explosives are in the mix along with something like protect territory so that the schemes laid down could be multi use.

Secondly I know why they are there, and I appreciate there being more schemes, but aside from ALitS, I really wish there weren't schemes tied to suits. I think the best games I've played scheme wise were those designed by a TO who didn't pay attention to the suit/number schemes, and just picked 4 different schemes to make the encounter. The suit schemes come up over and over, and they tend to be the ones more responsible for the same schemes getting taken over and over I find, especially protect Territory.

If a redesign were ever contemplated, I think I'd make it so that there were 13 schemes for the red suits (Rams and Masks) and 13 schemes for the Black suits (crows and Tomes) and then the joker scheme, so that aside from AlitS there would no constantly repeating schemes, and the pool would be almost totally different every time one played.

Not a bad idea! I guess changes are oit of the question with the schemes and strategies deck printed up and sold and all, but there are some good points here. Using two cards to generate five schemes is neat and elegant. However, you do get repetitions, and after a while it becomes hard to bluff as the selection is rather limited.

How about this:

One (or two?) always present schemes. They should be easy to understand for new players, be doable for most crews, but not the best choice most of the time.

13 red schemes

13 black schemes

1 black joker? (difficult for most crews?)

1 red joker? (easy for most crews?)

All schemes should be able to score full points hidden, but many (most?) should be significantly easier revealed. Bodyguard should be adjusted to be less time-dependant for turnament play.

Draw six cards for a pool of eight; each player choose two.

Argument:

This would demand almost ten new schemes, so would take much effort to balance and playtest. The larger number of schemes allow for a bigger scheme pool, resulting in more opportunities for bluffing. All schemes possibility scoring full points while hidden also gives more opportunity for bluffing/less easy to guess opponent's schemes. All in all should bring back more of a bluffing game, while hopefully also giving more variety in schemes chosen. Most schemes should be viable for all factions.

Could be even more varied by adding variations for each suit, but balancing 56 schemes might be asking to much...

[Fetid Strumpet]

To be clear I wasn't asking for a change. Beta is over, just a suggestion if they ever add schemes to a future book or gaining grounds document.

[tmod]

To be clear I wasn't asking for a change. Beta is over, just a suggestion if they ever add schemes to a future book or gaining grounds document.

This. Too much change can disrupt an already great game, be it more masters of rules changes. But if something is to change in the future one can always speculate/wishlist...

[wizuriel]

Difficulty	Scheme	reason
1	Cursed Object	Super easy to do and requires no real crew investment. Just give it to a model that has activated already. Rarly do I not get the 3 pts for this one
2	protect territory	Does require a scheme marker, but usually pretty easy to get full points even if revealed
3	Plant Evidence	like protect territory but a bit more specific. This one also depends on the board but usually super easy to do
4	Breakthrough	I find this super easy to do and doesn't require much of a crew investment. Fast Scheme runners can probably solo this with minimal investment. Also one of the few schemes you can get full points with never revealing
5	Deliver a Message	Tends to be super easy unless your fighting the dreamer. Most masters you can usually engage and deliver this easily enough. Not one I usually reveal though and usually better picks
6	Body Guard	Might require the right model, but usually pretty easy to get full points with minimal investment
7	Power Ritual	tends to be easy, but need to tailor the list to this
8	Entourage	Very master and crew depenent. Would take this with either a lot of models that can move my master around, or a very in your face master.
9	Vendetta	I like this one. I usally take it if I have a good mid prices very kily model. Can usually surprise your opponent and just go for the full 3 points
10	distract	I find this pretty easy to get some points for, but usually hard to pull off. Much safer schemes
11	Make Them Suffer	Depends on the master, but get a killy master and henchman and this is easy. Though not a good pick if the rest of the schemes and strategies require covering a lot of ground
12	Frame for Murder	easy to get some points for as few can reset a sacrifical lamb, hard to get full points for it though
13	Murder Protegé	Tends to be pretty easy as a big ecpensive model is usually a target anyways. Hard if reveled though
14	plant explosives	Easy to get some points, but hard to get all as it depends on your opponent. Can make it look like protect terriroty or break through, but usually that just gets a few points. Would depend a lot on the strategy, but usually easier options
15	assassinate	Easy with and against some masters and super hard against others (looking at you Dreamer and Leveticus). I will rarely take this one since without knowing the master it is a huge gamble
16	A Line in the Sand	Usually easy to get some points, but very hard to get full. You really need to devote a crew to this. I will rarely take it
17	Spring the Trap	very hard to get the scheme markers that close to a master without them realizing what you're doing.
18	out flank	This one requires a lot of effort to do and easy to stop. I never take it
19	Take Prisoner	This one is super hard to do with how choatic a game can be. Never pick it

 

 

So the first 6 I find super easy to get the full 3 points and usually doesn't require me taking that many specific models to do. 7-14 I can usually get some points for, but hard to get the full 3 or requires me having to take specific models or get lucky to get points. 14-18 are almost never worth taking as they just require a lot of crew investment or luck.

Edited August 27, 2015 by wizuriel