Joel Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 but a summoning master doesn't have to aggressively summon in a reckoning game - and a melee master simply has to make sure they kill things when they go in and pick their time to do so well. such a master, like Justice, can still have a huge effect on the game even if they never draw a sword. No master is a one-trick pony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zFiend Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 Okay how does Justice have a huge impact on the game without ever hitting anything all game? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 Okay how does Justice have a huge impact on the game without ever hitting anything all game? Now I am intrigued as well. I'm a big Justice fan, but without ever drawing her sword? I'm curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadeton Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 She's really good at Take Prisoner without ever drawing her sword! Like, really good. Probably the best in the game at that one specific thing. I agree in principle with the "No Master is a one-trick pony" and "Every Master can build for any occasion" sentiment, but there are still degrees, and some scenarios are more skewed than others when it comes to establishing a hierarchy. Reconnoiter is the main culprit, for me - playing a non-summoner against a power-summoner like Nico or Dreamer is just an enormous uphill struggle because they have an inherent advantage. There's a similar disparity between very mobile Masters and slower ones in scenarios where movement is important - try playing Stake a Claim, Breakthrough and Power Ritual with Rasputina, then try again with Colette. Both can succeed, but Colette can do it with her eyes closed and both hands tied behind her back. Every Master has strengths and weaknesses, but some weaknesses are more restrictive to their ability to compete in a range of schemes and strategies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 Okay how does Justice have a huge impact on the game without ever hitting anything all game? Simply by threatening to - board position and threat range = control Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengt Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 but a summoning master doesn't have to aggressively summon in a reckoning game - and a melee master simply has to make sure they kill things when they go in and pick their time to do so well. But that is the point I'm trying to make. Every Master have their "SS" put into various abilities, some Masters have them sunk into summoning and their other abilities are weaker. So if you take them and don't summon very much you are not getting your moneys worth. And again if you take Justice vs Deliver a Message you'll probably have to spend a noticeable amount of AP moving around to line up safe combats instead of just chopping things into tiny pieces with your great honking sword. If you had picked Sonnia in the same game you could have spent your AP making things die in a fire while cackling gleefully, just like you would in a game without Deliver a Message in the pool. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zFiend Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 No Izamu is. Ml 8 and to disengaging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 No Izamu is. Ml 8 and to disengaging. Sorry, a flat out "you can't disengage" wins. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zFiend Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 Sorry, a flat out "you can't disengage" wins. Oh right I forgot that upgrade. I never use it. Still I think that the mere threat of Justice isn't enough to have her impact the game hugely if she never hits anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadeton Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 Oh right I forgot that upgrade. I never use it. During one of the beta phases, when Freikorps Trappers and Librarians both lacked any kind of melee attack and the Trappers didn't have their push, Justice engaged two of each, said "You're all under arrest," and basically just stood there for the rest of the game holding up 24 stones' worth of models. That would normally never happen, but it sure was funny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zFiend Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 During one of the beta phases, when Freikorps Trappers and Librarians both lacked any kind of melee attack and the Trappers didn't have their push, Justice engaged two of each, said "You're all under arrest," and basically just stood there for the rest of the game holding up 24 stones' worth of models. That would normally never happen, but it sure was funny. Haha. Now if that was still the case I'd agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxypoo Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 Was there ever any doubt that Leveticus is super mobile and generally awesome? That he can dominate any strategy hardly makes your point that all Masters are flexible. How is Vasilisa on her own supposed to stop a remotely competent opponent from controlling a quarter in Reconnoitre? All it takes is two non peons playing hide and seek with her. --- I think the whole "less flexible Master thing" revolves around that some Master have a main shtick that is in some way less viable in one particular strategy (the most obvious is summoning damaged and/or generally weak models in Reckoning). And if you take them in that particular strategy and uses their AP for something other than their main thing chances are that you are going to spend the whole game thinking that another Master would have been more effective. And then there is Deliver the Message. A melee centric Master have to be much more careful than a ranged Master if you don't want to just gives those points away. In conclusion I think some Masters have one or two blind spots while others don't, and I would call those with blind spots "less flexible". Maybe my point didn't come across clearly because of the specific examples I used. My point is that being a more flexible player allows you to use more unorthodox tactics and unusual combinations to achieve objectives and cover "blind spots" than what conventional wisdom dictates, which can be a distinct advantage. No one says Levy isn't awesome and mobile, but if you look through the tactica threads and pullmyfinger article it's incredibly rare for people to suggest that he can be a good scheme runner. Instead, discussions of his mobility are generally limited to "jump around to get LoS and kill stuff." With the Vasilisa example I forgot to include her teleporting a puppet, such as a Stitched or Coryphee along with her. Now your opponent has to dedicate 3 non-peon models to controlling that table quarter. All three models have to be able to survive the damage output of the Stitched or Coryphee and cannot be near the table center or another quarter or Vasilisa can simply Obey them to walk into a non-scoring position. Plus, if your opponent heavily commits to that quarter, Vasilisa is crazy fast, so she can just hop to a different quarter to cause problems. I completely agree with you that some masters are less flexible in certain strategy/scheme pools, and you give good examples. The point that I'm trying to make (and that I think Joel was too - correct me if I'm wrong) is that player flexibility allows you to overcome these "blind spots" and can confer some distinct advantages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxypoo Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 But that is the point I'm trying to make. Every Master have their "SS" put into various abilities, some Masters have them sunk into summoning and their other abilities are weaker. So if you take them and don't summon very much you are not getting your moneys worth. That's a fair argument, but if you win it doesn't matter whether you used your master to their "full" potential. In the case of summoners like Nicodem and the Dreamer, summoning a single specific model from your toolbox at a critical moment can often shape the game just as well as spamming summons the entire time. Edit: Holy crap! ZFiend, you changed your avatar! Just realized that was you haha. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zFiend Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 Edit: Holy crap! ZFiend, you changed your avatar! Just realized that was you haha. Hahaha. Yeah I lost the standoff. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victoria Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 All of this talking about Lady Justice not hitting anything reminds me of a tournament where I brought the Viks and used them and their entire crew as scheme runners. It was frustrating to my opponents, especially one in particular who exclaimed "You aren't SUPPOSED to play them like that!" I did get 2nd in the tournament. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zFiend Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 "You aren't SUPPOSED to play them like that!" That is amazing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 All of this talking about Lady Justice not hitting anything reminds me of a tournament where I brought the Viks and used them and their entire crew as scheme runners. It was frustrating to my opponents, especially one in particular who exclaimed "You aren't SUPPOSED to play them like that!" I did get 2nd in the tournament. Scheme runner sling shot! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zFiend Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 Scheme runner sling shot! I can just feel the opponents fear and complete and utter confusion. "Oh my god, there they come, holy shit, now the sling shot began, oh my god it's the accomplice upgrade. Blood is within my crew.. I'm just gonna d.. SCHEME MARKER!? THE HELL ARE YOU DOING LADY!?" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 I can just feel the opponents fear and complete and utter confusion. "Oh my god, there they come, holy shit, now the sling shot began, oh my god it's the accomplice upgrade. Blood is within my crew.. I'm just gonna d.. SCHEME MARKER!? THE HELL ARE YOU DOING LADY!?" Might be worth it for Deliver a Message. *My God, there she comes... Vik of Blood... sling shot..." *closes eyes* "Ahem." *opens eyes and stares at a folded piece of paper in his hand* "What's this?" *reads aloud* "Yeah, you know, I could've totally killed you... but nah. Too easy." 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadeton Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 I would expect the slip of paper to just read "MELEE EXPERT"... 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 I would expect the slip of paper to just read "MELEE EXPERT"... Heh. Good one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zFiend Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 I would expect the slip of paper to just read "MELEE EXPERT"... Hahaha. Classic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgarbonzo Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 Most Gremlin masters are remarkably versatile, to the point that with few exceptions, I believe Gremlins to be more crew dependent than the chosen Master. Wong, Ophelia, Somer, and Mah all can do things to help their crew but are very independent of them as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trikk Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 I would expect the slip of paper to just read "MELEE EXPERT"... I always imagine they deliver a Dickbutt picture Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PraetorDragoon Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 I would expect the slip of paper to just read "MELEE EXPERT"... Glorious. In the context of this thread, Hamelin has a pretty impressive toolbox that can be used in a various amount. You would be suprised at the death glares you receive from the Colette player when they realize they can't drop scheme markers anymore...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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