Who "pays" the soulstone cost of drawing 2 extra cards?

[Carcosa]

Normally this is not an issue as it can be safely assumed that the soulstone comes out of the crew's "general pool", but the issue arises with the interaction of Lucius' Devil's Deal ability which allows him to deal 3 damage to a friendly model within 6" to gain a soulstone after the action and the Wings of Darkness upgrade that states that "the model" paying for the card draw may draw 3 cards rather than 2.

 

This leads to 2 questions.

 

1:  Is the card drawing ability paid for by a model, which allows for the interpretation of Lucius being able to use Devils deal to "offset" the cost of the card draw?

 

OR

 

2: Does the text of Devils deal stating "After the action" render the point moot as Card drawing can be seen as "not an action" therefore ineligible to interact with Devils Deal.

 

After consideration, I am inclined to go with option 2, but I'm not 100% sure.

[zFiend]

I'd say it's the 2nd option.

[Myyrä]

RAW it's 3: Wings of Darkness upgrade does not actually work, because model isn't allowed to spend a soulstone to draw cards. Also Lucius can't benefit from Devil's Deal for the exact same reason.

(I'd say Devil's Deal does work even if there is no current action though.)

[Ausplosions]

RAW it's 3: Wings of Darkness upgrade does not actually work, because model isn't allowed to spend a soulstone to draw cards. Also Lucius can't benefit from Devil's Deal for the exact same reason.

(I'd say Devil's Deal does work even if there is no current action though.)

Answer the questions asked, not voice the latest RAW argument you've thought up or play devils advocate again. It's not helpful, or permitted.

Can someone post the actual wording for devils deal and/or Wings of Darkness?

[zFiend]

RAW it's 3: Wings of Darkness upgrade does not actually work, because model isn't allowed to spend a soulstone to draw cards.

So when you play Neverborn you never take this upgrade since you can't use it?

[Myyrä]

Answer the questions asked, not voice the latest RAW argument you've thought up or play devils advocate again. It's not helpful, or permitted.

Can someone post the actual wording for devils deal and/or Wings of Darkness?

I'm not trying to argue that Wings of Darkness does not work. I'm trying to argue that it is actually worded badly, and should not be used as evidence to support any claims that Devil's Deal can be used for card drawing. I suppose I could have made that more clear, but I feel that your hostility is still quite unwarranted.

[Phinn]

Can someone post the actual wording for devils deal and/or Wings of Darkness?

 

Devil's Deal Ability (Lucius): After this models spends a Soulstone, it may deal 3 damage which may not be reduced to a friendly model within 6 to add 1 Soulstone to this Crew's Soulstone Pool after resolving the current Action.

 

Whisper From the Other Place Ability (On Wings of Darkness Upgrade): When this model spends a Soulstone in the Draw Phase to draw cards, it may draw and discard three cards instead of two.

[Ausplosions]

I'm not trying to argue that Wings of Darkness does not work. I'm trying to argue that it is actually worded badly, and should not be used as evidence to support any claims that Devil's Deal can be used for card drawing. I suppose I could have made that more clear, but I feel that your hostility is still quite unwarranted.

Sorry if you read hostility. None was intended. Read it with a smiley face.

[lusciousmccabe]

So I guess Devil's Deal does work then? You can probably ignore the last clause as there doesn't need to be an action to resolve after, it's just a timing thing.

[Myyrä]

So I guess Devil's Deal does work then? You can probably ignore the last clause as there doesn't need to be an action to resolve after, it's just a timing thing.

Devil's Deal does not work (in this case) because it's not a model but the player who spends the soulstone to draw the extra cards. Rulebook has a list of possible ways to use soulstones. A model can only use soulstone to enhance a duel or prevent damage unless they have an action or ability that says otherwise.

That is also the reason why Wings of Darkness don't really work RAW, but I think it's pretty clear that the intent is that it is supposed to work.

[lusciousmccabe]

Yes, Wings of Darkness implies that it is your master who spends the stone for cards even though that's not mentioned in rules. If we want an interpretation of Wings of Darkness that does what it's supposed to do then it follows that Lucius would be able to use his Devil's Deal when spending a stone for cards.

 

As an aside, another time you would spend a stone with Lucius outside of an action would be to prevent damage from conditions, which should also work fine with Devil's Deal.

[paradoxstorm]

Hate to be thick, but "RAW" means ?????

[zFiend]

Rules as written

[Myyrä]

Hate to be thick, but "RAW" means ?????

Read as written.

Yes, Wings of Darkness implies that it is your master who spends the stone for cards even though that's not mentioned in rules. If we want an interpretation of Wings of Darkness that does what it's supposed to do then it follows that Lucius would be able to use his Devil's Deal when spending a stone for cards.

 

As an aside, another time you would spend a stone with Lucius outside of an action would be to prevent damage from conditions, which should also work fine with Devil's Deal.

So you find it more likely that the rulebook uses the wrong wording instead of Wings of Darkness? One or the other must be wrong, and I'm betting on Wings here. If we assume your interpretation is the correct one, who draws the extra cards when Leader is dead?

[Mikey_C]

 

 

Whisper From the Other Place Ability (On Wings of Darkness Upgrade): When this model spends a Soulstone in the Draw Phase to draw cards, it may draw and discard three cards instead of two.

 

I think it is worded this way to be clear that this ability is lost if the model with the upgrade is dead.

My 2¢.

[lusciousmccabe]

Read as written.

So you find it more likely that the rulebook uses the wrong wording instead of Wings of Darkness? One or the other must be wrong, and I'm betting on Wings here. If we assume your interpretation is the correct one, who draws the extra cards when Leader is dead?

 

They could easily rule it one way or the other. Until then I'm inclined to go with the leader using soulstones to draw cards for the purposes of Devil's Deal and Wings of Darkness, mostly because both those abilities can be on the same model and it would be very weird to interpret them differently.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I would disagree with that because that would mean you no longer could do so if you had no SS users present, which isn't the case.

I might be misremembering, but that ability was specifically added so that support masters and players who lost their master still had something to use remaining as for.

[lusciousmccabe]

I said for the purposes of those two abilities. Once they're no longer in play just treat it as per the rulebook.

 

EDIT - I'm not advocating or trying to justify this interpretation. There's as just much support for assuming that Wings of Darkness will be errata'd to not mention a model and that Devil's Deal will have nothing to do with the draw step. 

[PolishSausage]

Um... devils deal implies action at the end..... so y are we still talking about this?

[Dirial]

Um... devils deal implies action at the end..... so y are we still talking about this?

 

Because it's only implied, and because it might be a timing factor, not a prerequisite.

[sharpobjects]

Big rule book page 25.

 

Soulstones:

 

Hire a Crew: Each player will..............

 

Enhance a Duel: Some models can...........

 

Reflip Initiative: A player may..............

 

Draw Additional Cards: A player may........

 

Prevent Damage: Some models can.........

 

 

 

Devil's Deal Ability (Lucius): After this models spends a Soulstone, it may deal 3 damage which may not be reduced to a friendly model within   6 to add 1 Soulstone to this Crew's Soulstone Pool after resolving the current Action.

 

 

When spending a Soulstone to draw additional cards it is not the model doing it but the player. Furthermore you are not resolving an action when spending a Soulstone to draw additional cards. So no, this ability cannot be used when spending a Soulstone to draw additional cards at the beginning of a turn.

 

 

 

Whisper From the Other Place Ability (On Wings of Darkness Upgrade): When this model spends a Soulstone in the Draw Phase to draw cards, it may draw and discard three cards instead of two.

 

 

As stated in previous replies to this thread I think we all agree that this upgrade is supposed to work when spending a Soulstone to draw additional cards at the beginning of the turn. The upgrade should not have mentioned the word model. It should have just said something like " when spending a Soulstone in the draw phase to draw cards, draw three cards instead of two". Or mention the word player instead of model. 

 

 

An example of an abilty that affects the draw phase and does not mention the word model;

 

Primordial Magic:

 

Rush of Magic; During the Draw Phase draw an additional card and then discard a card. 

[zFiend]

Very good rundown sharpobjects.

[Dirial]

Very good rundown sharpobjects.

 

But one that supports Myyrä's argument:

 

Whisper From the Other Place Ability (On Wings of Darkness Upgrade): When this model spends a Soulstone in the Draw Phase to draw cards, it may draw and discard three cards instead of two.

 

This ability wouldn't do a thing, and would have to be errata'd to

 

Whisper From the Other Place Ability (On Wings of Darkness Upgrade): When spending a Soulstone in the Draw Phase to draw cards, draw and discard three cards instead of two.

[Myyrä]

This ability wouldn't do a thing, and would have to be errata'd to

Or we could just pretend it is working as it was intended.

[sharpobjects]

Or we could just pretend it is working as it was intended.

 

 

Your title is "rules lawyer" and you suggest we should just pretend something works as intended. 

 

Dichotomy at it's best. 

 

[Dirial]

Or we could just pretend it is working as it was intended.

 

Yeah, what I meant was:

 

Sharpobjects post was well worded, but it just said what you said before: The ability RAW doesn't do anything. Since it's pretty obvious what it should do, we can just play it like that. Thus, you're absolutely right.