McCabe + Luna - Guaranteed to Deliver a Message??

[CapnBloodbeard]

So, here's a situation that came up last night.  Playing against McCabe (I was von Schill). We both had 'Deliber a MEssage'.

He was also playing Luna.

Now, I have no complaints about what happened being permissible, but it struck me as pretty indefensible:

McCabe gave Badge of Speed and Nimble to Luna.  

So this means Luna, with a walk of 7, also had Companion, Reactivate and an extra Walk AP.

 

So Turn one she activated, Triple walk, activated again (applied Companion to herself), walked, and delivered a message.

What we worked out though was the effective range of this: 

Assume she starts 6" out, standard deployment. To Deliver a Message on turn 1, she needs 2 AP remaining from what's effectively 6AP.

So 6" + 4 walks = 34" + 1" melee. So if my master is withing 35" of her starting position when she activates, he'll cop deliver a message.

We ran the tape measure just showing the radius of this....basically, that covered almost the entire board.  It seemed like the only possible way my master could avoid having the message delivered in Turn 1 would be to bunker down in the corner and do absolutely nothing (and the thought of von Schill hiding in the corner because he's scared of a dog is, frankly, offensive!!!!).  Even then there would still be quite a good chance it would happen in Turn 2, unless I win initiative and am lucky enough to kill Luna first.

So, everybody last night agreed that this seems rather broken.  Virtually guaranteed AP from Deliver a Message (and with this sort of possibility, of course my opponent declared the scheme).

Anybody else come up against this one or have any thoughts on this scenarios?  As I said, no problems with my opponent doing it, but I was curious to hear the thoughts of others, it was just an interesting scenario!!  

Made for a good laugh anyway 

[Myyrä]

That's how it works. It's not impossible to prevent Luna from delivering a message, but quite difficult if you aren't prepared for it. Luna and McCabe also aren't the only ones who can deliver a message to an absolutely ridiculous range.

[Patzer]

I got both Plant Explosives and Deliver a Message handed to me on turn one. A humble Guild Hound is nearly as good for the job too, while being a far lesser trade off than Luna. Its very hard to defend against it. Most of the times the best thing that comes out of it is that McCabe will have to sacrifice  a valuable upgrade and a dog for it, something that can come in handy down the line. Besides that, I cannot really come up with any good defences against the tactic.

[asrian]

Don't forget to add in the pushes McCabe can do. That should add in another 4" to 8" of movement if I recall correctly. You'll have to check though.

[Patzer]

Don't forget to add in the pushes McCabe can do. That should add in another 4" to 8" of movement if I recall correctly. You'll have to check though.

4" push per upgrade attached to the target of Take This. So, you are correct Sir!

[StuffedKiwi]

I don't play Outcast so don't know what options Von Schill specifically has available for this situation, but anything that provides a no-interact aura (through Chatty or the like) is obviously very powerful against Plant Explosives, Deliver a Message, and the like. I prefer 'tough to beat' as a description, rather than broken' -- once you've experienced it, and can plan for it, it's definitely still a powerful combo but, as others have said, it has costs for McCabe, and you can always use terrain, intervening model, etc. to make it harder for him to pull off in the first turn. There's also always the option of focusing your first activation(s) on killing Luna, somehow, from that same range.

[CapnBloodbeard]

That's right, forgot about the pushes.  So yeah, it reached all the way across the board, really just leaving the corners.  Effective range - 43" to Deliver a Message on Turn 1.  So to avoid it I would have had to let von Schill do absolutely nothing in Turn 1 (or, be out-activating and leave von Schill to last), hope to win initiative and pump a lot of firepower into Luna (who can be pretty darn hard to kill) and cross my fingers.

I dunno, that just feels broken to me.

 

Oh, and losing Luna wasn't an issue, given he took Frame for Murder as well

 

I suppose there are some possibilities of killing Luna before her first activation....not sure how though, given she can also benefit from Armour, she's can be pretty darn hard to kill.

 

Terrain doesn't do enough to block that sort of mobility, and nothing with a no interact aura in my crew

 

Of course, I'd pretty much have to kill Luna anyway, and Frame for Murder is a perfect companion here, so maybe 'near-guaranteed VP' are a more common part of the game than I was thinking.

[EnternalVoid]

I get a chuckle as this was actually the thing that brought up the whole can you companion with yourself thing on the rule forum way back before the FAQ.

 

A few things to remember about this though is that while McCabe might get his 3 VP first turn, he might also lose some pretty valuable tools in the process.  Like it was mentioned it might be better to have a Guild Hound do this rather than Luna, as while the Hound has a 6" walk if it starts its first activation close enough to Luna and/or a Guild Sergeant you can get additional movement first activation.  Even just with Luna you can get the Hound Walk 7" for those first three walks.  So if McCabe uses Luna he might be losing a very useful Totem, so it is more likely for a Guild Hound to do the job.  Second, if he literally sends it shooting across the board to do this first turn there is a good chance that the final Hound is more than 10" from McCabe, so if you kill the hound before McCabe can get closer to retrieve his Badge of Speed you can deny him Reactivation to his minions and the ability to hand out Nimble.

 

So if he does this first turn he is looking at possible losing at least a 3ss model and a 3ss upgrade, or if McCabe charges forward to be in range to retrieve it, might be in a poor place to be counterattacked or counter deliver the message.

 

When I have done this I have often waited till turn 2 to do it as I can migrate things and might not need to be so risky with my upgrade *which is very valuable*.  I have done it turn 1 before that is generally when my opponent is kind enough to move their leader 8-10" forward for me.  That way McCabe does not have to dart forward so much to make sure he is in range to get his upgrade back if the messenger is killed.

 

To try and prevent this counter a few options.  He has to get a model with in melee to your leader.  If the likely subject is a dog with 1" melee, you can position your models so that there is not a gap they can fit through and if they press against your models cannot get with in 1" of your leader.  Also if you have models like Trappers you can possible try to kill the messenger.  As there will be a gap somewhere you might be able to interrupt it.  To pull this off it requires at least 3 activations, of which only 2 can be chained with Companion.  There is McCabe doing his thing and then the two activations to actually get the job done.  So if you see McCabe giving reactivation and his badge you now know who his messenger is.  If a Trapper can shoot and maybe kill the target you can throw a wrench into the plan.   He could companion after McCabe to get initially movement to get into safety, but that also means he is stopping a certain distance from your leader and giving you a chance to run and engage the dog to try and stop its message run.  It is also not easy for him to give Luna armor if he is going with her unless he activates her with companion after McCabe as you have a gap between it activating to shoot.  A Trapper will have a harder time killing Luna in 1 or two shots then a Guild Hound, but with the right cards you might be able to.  A Guild Hound is very possible as a Focus shot with a strait flip to damage can kill one with a Severe, or if you had a Ram to hit all you need is a Moderate.

 

As for Frame for Murder, if you have that and Deliver the message you should likely consider having the model killed by a Non-master or henchman model as it seems like an obvious thing.  Sure they will still get some VP but at the very least you have Denied them full VP for both Schemes.  As someone who has played plenty with McCabe I can say it is really rough to deal with but I have also seen how it could go possible wrong.

[Math Mathonwy]

I'm probably missing something obvious, but doesn't the Guild Hound's Insignificant make him a worse candidate for this maneuver?

As for how to stop this thing, take Tara Or block Luna by using terrain and models with a long melee reach she can't pass in one move.

But yeah, Deliver a Message is almost an automatic 3VP much of the time unless you have access to Chatty. There are lots of models who can do it pretty trivially. But really, many other Schemes are really easy as well so it's not like Deliver a Message is a total outlier.

[zFiend]

Luna makes them significant.

[CapnBloodbeard]

I get a chuckle as this was actually the thing that brought up the whole can you companion with yourself thing on the rule forum way back before the FAQ.

 

 

 

 

Wow, great post - thanks heaps!  And you want a real chuckle?  It's my fault this happened!!  Just before the game I was checking something in the FAQ and for some reason I just mumbled about a self-companion one in there.  So he hadn't even thought of it before I mentioned it!!

 

 

 

I'm probably missing something obvious, but doesn't the Guild Hound's Insignificant make him a worse candidate for this maneuver?

As for how to stop this thing, take Tara   Or block Luna by using terrain and models with a long melee reach she can't pass in one move.

 

 

 

That's the downside of Freikorps - they all have a 1" melee range.  And I don't know much about the Guild Hound

 

[Math Mathonwy]

Luna makes them significant.

I was missing something obvious then! For some reason I thought it was an Aura but it's just the Wk bonus that is one. Thanks!

[zFiend]

I was missing something obvious then! For some reason I thought it was an Aura but it's just the Wk bonus that is one. Thanks!

No worries.

[sharpobjects]

As mentioned above the Outcast faction has Tara with her zero action Lost Instants. Sometimes you need to tailor your list to the schemes available as well as the opponent's declared faction. If they declare Guild or Ten Thunders with deliver the message AND framer for murder available then you hedge by hiring Tara instead of Von Schill. Tara is going to have an easier time winning intiatives with her positive twist to initiative flips on her upgrade allowing her to bring up her zero action aura. Yes this costs you reactivate but it bones deliver the message. 

 

Now you will have the opposite grumbling from your opponent that they cannot score on deliver the message because of Tara's zero action aura & her positive twist to initiative flips. 

[zFiend]

We had a game where I declared deliver a message against Tara. I had no idea she had another (0). Especially one that would mess that whole scheme up. So instead I just killed her turn 2 with Misaki. She'd be better off with the message.

[Breng77]

As others have said a no interacts bubble, or blocking with other models will works. Short I that you could always kill your own master. Now that is not always the best choice but if frame an deliver are in play it could deny 6 vp....so might be worth it.

[Math Mathonwy]

We had a game where I declared deliver a message against Tara. I had no idea she had another (0). Especially one that would mess that whole scheme up. So instead I just killed her turn 2 with Misaki. She'd be better off with the message.

"Hey, I have a message for you"

Sticks fingers in her ears and goes "Lalalalalala"

Urge to kill... RISING!

 

As others have said a no interacts bubble, or blocking with other models will works. Short I that you could always kill your own master. Now that is not always the best choice but if frame an deliver are in play it could deny 6 vp....so might be worth it.

Ah, the Gremlin response to Assassinate!

.

.

.

(I know it doesn't work but it's a reference to a story that someone told on the forums)

"Hey boys, I think they're trying to kill me!"

"What did he say?" "I dunno, all I heard was 'kill me!'"

*Banjo Bash*

[zFiend]

Oh yeah. That was the most gremlinest thing I can imagine. :D

Best part, it doesn't even work. Makes it even more gremlin like. "we did our best."

[sharpobjects]

We had a game where I declared deliver a message against Tara. I had no idea she had another (0). Especially one that would mess that whole scheme up. So instead I just killed her turn 2 with Misaki. She'd be better off with the message.

 

And I had a game where I killed Misaki on Turn 1 by Tara delivering Killjoy to her face. Misdirection didnt even save her. Using your logic my opponent would have been better off not playing Malifaux that day. That particular game ended in a 1 point victory for me but my opponent actually had a shot at tie. 

 

Killing a master doesnt mean you win the game unless your scoring VP for doing it. You dont need to have any models left on the table to win the game. Certain strategy and schemes dependant of course. To say someone would be better off allowing an opponent 3VP just to keep their master alive doesnt understand the game.  

 

I have won many a game after losing my master early. The main reason was there wasnt any VP gained by killing my master. The secondary reason was I hired a solid crew that could still do some heavy lifting even without their leader. 

[zFiend]

I think you misunderstood something big time mate from what I meant to say.

[Math Mathonwy]

And I had a game where I killed Misaki on Turn 1 by Tara delivering Killjoy to her face. Misdirection didnt even save her. Using your logic my opponent would have been better off not playing Malifaux that day. That particular game ended in a 1 point victory for me but my opponent actually had a shot at tie.

I'm pretty sure that the "she" in ZFiend's "She'd be better off with the message." was referring to Tara as opposed to the dude playing with Tara. The player naturally denied three VP which was good for him.

[zFiend]

I'm pretty sure that the "she" in ZFiend's "She'd be better off with the message." was referring to Tara as opposed to the dude playing with Tara. The player naturally denied three VP which was good for him.

Yeah exactly. It was a fun game.

[shakes1066]

Just kill your master first turn, I know it sounds extreme but sometimes best option. Then don't kill Luna if frame for murder is in the pool. They are 6pts down straight away. This is a good way to make people think about taking it and what they should take with it.

[zFiend]

The Gremlin way is catching on.

[Adran]

The Gremlin way is catching on.

Its more a case of Heading Old Skool.

Too much of the first editon scheme selection could be prevented by you kiiling your own crew.