Why is 'Cisco OP?

[dgraz]

I see a lot of Guild players saying he is virtually an auto-include in many crews.....and lots of non-Guild players saying how much they hate him and what he does.

 

What is it that he does that makes him so? Why is he so much better than the other awesome Guild Henchmen?

 

Personally, I play Guild a bit and played against a bit.....I don't include him in all my crews (but always with 'Dita) and I don't see him as some insurmountable obstacle when facing him? Am I missing something?

[Dirial]

Agree with Dgraz, and am curious as well.

[The Zinc Lich]

Its a couple of things really.

 

1- He is 8 soulstones. Unfortunately, this is why you almost never see Santiago; the two of them do fairly similar things, and paying one more stone to get El Mayor is hilariously good. It also makes him the cheapest guild model that is decent in melee (with his competition being, to my knowledge, a 9 ss Executioner with no gun and an 11 point Peacekeeper).

 

2- He brings El Mayor. A +2 static boost to your defenses is *really good*. That is the reason why I see most people bring him. He makes 'Dita functionally invulnerable, he brings Sonnia's Df out of the toilet, and he gives Lady J a much higher chance of being delivered to the opponent unharmed. Those are the three that almost always lean on him for defensive buffs, but no one will *turn down* an El Mayor boost.

 

3- He brings Hermanos De Armas. This is, simply, the most impactful positioning effect that the Guild has access to. Pushing friendly models around is not really the Guild's jam, and HDA is pretty much all they get aside from Austringer's two inch push. It is sometimes dangerous to put it on Papa, Nino is usually deployed too far up the board (and dies really easily), and if you are going to bring Santiago for HDA, as I said, you might as well bring Francisco for one more point. It also makes it *very* easy to keep El Mayor up.

 

4- He is incredibly resilient for his cost. If you kit him out in the Lead Lined Jacket and Wade In, he gets Armor +1, Hard to Kill, self-healing, and drops  on enemies in melee with him. This is all on top of his decent statline. For the cost of the Peacekeeper at that point, you get a model that is, in many cases *more resilient* that also brings everything else along with him. As well as lacking really good positioning abilities, the Guild also tends to be light on truly tanky models, which drives the value of Francisco's stock up.

 

5- In the end, he is still one of the "dudes with good pistols", which is something the Guild *is* known for having a lot of. Nobody applies ranged firepower like the Guild, and you can bring Francisco along for everything else he offers without lowering your pistol count. Even if he never gets to charge something, he'll pull his weight with El Mayor and his Peacebringer, which is not something many melee-capable Henchmen can brag about.

[Dirial]

Disclaimer: I see your points, and don't want to refute them. But you have to admit that he always only does some of those things. For example, he cannot do 3. and 4. in the same game, as they are dependent of his upgrades. As well, he cannot do 1. and 4.

 

Also, points 1., 3., 4. and 5. are done equally well by the Judge (because, seriously, who plays Francisco without Wade In?), who is never mentioned as an auto-include.

 

So, for me, this is what follows from your post: Two points make him good. For one, he is very adaptable. From Master to Master and from game to game, he can be very well tailored for what you want of him. And secondly, El Mayor. It's an incredibly good effect, there's no arguing about that.

 

Does that sound correct, or did I misinterpret your post?

[The Godlyness]

Dgraz I think it's your meta more than actual him being op. I have taken him once and was thoroughly unimpressed. He walk he hugged things that needed mayor love I think he shot once or twice.

I see him as a decent piece but not omg wtf so op. I just don't fancy him. Course 98% of the time I don't play stalkers or even use Sam when playing Sonnia. So maybe I am the odd one.

[The Zinc Lich]

Disclaimer: I see your points, and don't want to refute them. But you have to admit that he always only does some of those things. For example, he cannot do 3. and 4. in the same game, as they are dependent of his upgrades. As well, he cannot do 1. and 4.

 

Also, points 1., 3., 4. and 5. are done equally well by the Judge (because, seriously, who plays Francisco without Wade In?), who is never mentioned as an auto-include.

 

So, for me, this is what follows from your post: Two points make him good. For one, he is very adaptable. From Master to Master and from game to game, he can be very well tailored for what you want of him. And secondly, El Mayor. It's an incredibly good effect, there's no arguing about that.

 

Does that sound correct, or did I misinterpret your post?

 

You don't typically see him with Lead Lined Coat. Its a good upgrade, but rarely is it as good as other stuff he can bring. I will argue with you about The Judge doing Francisco's job as well as he does, because he lacks access to self-healing. I can't overstate how useful it is to be able to heal yourself back above HtK without supporting models. Francisco also brings Finesse, making him a lot harder to hit in melee than the judge is and Flurry, which is a lot more reliable way of generating extra melee attacks than the Judge's Blades and Bullets trigger.

 

For the same Soulstone cost (with Wade In), El Mayor typically tips the balance in Francisco's favor.

[Dirial]

Since Finesse and the Heal are exclusive, I don't see it as that great a bonus, but that may be down to preference. Also, I seldom use Hermanos, as it competes with Finesse.

 

Also, you listed him as tanky with LLC. Without it, he isn't particularly tanky. Not easy to kill, but other models can easily compete with him.

 

But now we argue with what load-out each of us would play him. In what load-out do you see him as particularly good, or do you think all of them?

 

I still think that adaptability is the strength you are pointing out. You don't?

[The Zinc Lich]

Nope, I agree with you on all the points. The question the thread is about is "why everyone talks about how good Francisco is", and I'm just listing the stuff I have seen/experienced. He frequently has to make a hard choice about what (0) action to use, but having 1-3 really good (0) actions isn't exactly a *bad* thing.

 

On Finesse/heal, Francisco can use the heal to make sure he is topped up before charging in with Finesse, then after disengaging heal himself back up. Unless he is at 1 wound, I typically opt for Finesse, but sometimes that clutch heal makes all the difference. I agree that sometimes it hurts having to choose, but I, personally, find those times to be few and far between.

 

Also, I forgot to mention that Francisco is the single best model to use Diestro on, and if you've never been walloped by that upgrade, let me tell you, it is *really good*.

 

The big thing about the judge is that he brings tankyness and a push that is just as good as Hermanos, without needing to bring upgrades for it. If the Guild had more compelling generic upgrades, I think you'd see a lot more of him, but as it is, it ends up being El Mayor and Diestro versus the Judge's personal upgrade, and Francisco usually wins out that comparison.

[Dirial]

Also, I forgot to mention that Francisco is the single best model to use Diestro on, and if you've never been walloped by that upgrade, let me tell you, it is *really good*.

 

Oh, I know that, believe me!   

[dgraz]

In the Master Queeg thread I mentioned that he usually died by turn 3 when I use or face him and Myyra responded that by then 'Dita or Lady J would have killed a great many things by then if left unchecked...........left unchecked they're going to do that with or without 'Cisco in the mix. There are plenty of other ways in this game to slow down such models. And if Lady J is so brutal with Df 7 why does 'Dita need 'Cisco at all?.......I've said for a long time that you're much better off putting El Mayor on anyone other than 'Dita....Df 7 is already extremely hard....all Df 9 does is tell the opponent to kill the rest of the crew first (especially 'Cisco). Two Df 7 models on the table makes things much more difficult to deal with.  
 

Its a couple of things really.
 
1- He is 8 soulstones. Unfortunately, this is why you almost never see Santiago; the two of them do fairly similar things, and paying one more stone to get El Mayor is hilariously good. It also makes him the cheapest guild model that is decent in melee (with his competition being, to my knowledge, a 9 ss Executioner with no gun and an 11 point Peacekeeper).

Judge is great in melee and no model can do the level of damage that Sam Hopkins does in melee.
 

2- He brings El Mayor. A +2 static boost to your defenses is *really good*. That is the reason why I see most people bring him. He makes 'Dita functionally invulnerable, he brings Sonnia's Df out of the toilet, and he gives Lady J a much higher chance of being delivered to the opponent unharmed. Those are the three that almost always lean on him for defensive buffs, but no one will *turn down* an El Mayor boost.

No question this is one of his greatest abilities. On the downside, it does force a certain positioning of models making them more susceptible to blasts, pulses, and auras.
 

3- He brings Hermanos De Armas. This is, simply, the most impactful positioning effect that the Guild has access to. Pushing friendly models around is not really the Guild's jam, and HDA is pretty much all they get aside from Austringer's two inch push. It is sometimes dangerous to put it on Papa, Nino is usually deployed too far up the board (and dies really easily), and if you are going to bring Santiago for HDA, as I said, you might as well bring Francisco for one more point. It also makes it *very* easy to keep El Mayor up.

Now he is a 9ss model.....the model has to push directly towards him....and I don't know how it makes it very easy to keep El Mayor up, since El Mayor must be applied at the start of 'Cisco's Activation....before he has a chance to use HDA. HDA is also a (0) action so he can't use Finesse if he uses it.

4- He is incredibly resilient for his cost. If you kit him out in the Lead Lined Jacket and Wade In, he gets Armor +1, Hard to Kill, self-healing, and drops  on enemies in melee with him. This is all on top of his decent statline. For the cost of the Peacekeeper at that point, you get a model that is, in many cases *more resilient* that also brings everything else along with him. As well as lacking really good positioning abilities, the Guild also tends to be light on truly tanky models, which drives the value of Francisco's stock up.

Okay...now he is an 11ss model....he should be resilient. Finesse only lasts until the end of the turn.......so again it influences your activation order and if you don't win Initiative and have him go first he is in trouble......he is only Df 5 with 8 Wds. He also can not use both his self heal and Finesse in the same turn as they are both (0) Actions.
  

5- In the end, he is still one of the "dudes with good pistols", which is something the Guild *is* known for having a lot of. Nobody applies ranged firepower like the Guild, and you can bring Francisco along for everything else he offers without lowering your pistol count. Even if he never gets to charge something, he'll pull his weight with El Mayor and his Peacebringer, which is not something many melee-capable Henchmen can brag about.

Again, Judge would disagree....with triggering extra attacks and being able to hand out additional attacks. He pulls his weight whether he is engaged or not....he's also a model that you can pick for certain Schemes because he is far more resilient....my Judge often survives the entire game whereas my 'Cisco hardly ever does.
 
I usually compare 'Cisco with Sybelle as they are both 8SS......With no Upgrades, 'Cisco is Df 5 Wd 8 with the potential to use Finesse (which uses up his (0) action, costs you a discard from your hand, and forces you to activate him early).....Sybelle is Df 6 Wd 9, with Terrifying (All) and H2W.....while her Ml attack isn't as powerful as 'Cisco's it does totally shut down a model for Schemes and Strats by turning them into a Peon that can't Interact....she also has a decent ranged attack with Blasts and has a (0) action that allows her to 'Place' Belles in base contact with a much better range than HDA (Sybelle's costs an 8 of anything, only targets Belles, they can be placed anywhere in base contact, and doesn't cost an Upgrade slot and extra SS......HDA is a push directly toward so can be influenced by terrain and dictates the position of the pushed model, is a much shorter range, costs 1ss and an Upgrade slot - it's upside is that it only costs the (0) action - which competes with Finesse and the self heal - and can target any friendly model......I think they're pretty comparable in ability but the 1ss and Upgrade slot is important).
 
Overall I agree that he is a great Henchman.....and his abilities make him very versatile for several crews. However, you paint him as if he can use all of the things you mention all the time and that just isn't true. HDA is an extra SS.....Just a Flesh Wound is also on a 1SS upgrade and costs a suited 8 to cast........So at base he is a 10ss model........HDA, Just a Flesh Wound, and Finesse are all (0) actions....and at the end of the day his is still Df 5 with only 8 Wds which is one of the lowest Wd stats in the game for his level.
 
@ Godlyness - it isn't my Meta, it's the forums.....we don't hate 'Cisco in my Meta the way I see him discussed here on the forums.

[dgraz]

 

 

Also, I forgot to mention that Francisco is the single best model to use Diestro on, and if you've never been walloped by that upgrade, let me tell you, it is *really good*.

 

Which is a 3 ss upgrade.......so now 'Cisco is a 12ss model that is Df 5 with 8 wounds that is in the middle of danger at all times.

 

How do you use Just a Flesh Wound before charging in with Finesse? Over multiple turns? If you're holding him back to heal, you're wasting him....he isn't doing what he should be doing. By turn 2 he should already be engaged and by then he has no time to self heal.

[SpectreEliteGaming]

Best of both worlds - take Judge and Frank! Problem solved

Apart from minion Lucius lists and the dual faction masters playing core - I've been most impressed with guild when they are run with Elite lists heavy on the henchmen. You have fewer models (5-6) but your crew is a rock.

[Myyrä]

I actually run Sidir and Frank. They help to keep each other alive and Promises aura makes sure that you hardly ever have to cheat your Ml attacks on Frank (or LJ or McMourning).

[The Godlyness]

Just played Frank with Sonnia. And he was her taxi. And she shot his gun. Multple times. Other wise didn't do much. But Df6 Sonnia was a thing she still got hit a lot. But ended the game at full wounds due to the brutal effigy. So I see his utility but at 10 stones (hda and wade in) he did not drove any of his points back. Maybe next time he will be in melee. So I can shoot him with Sonnia or something.

[EnternalVoid]

I would not say Francisco is OP but I do think he is very strong and personally I think El Mayor is bad for the game.  He rarely does not perform for me, even if it means he does get murdered midgame.  Because as long as he did his job then it is fine, anything more than that is extra.  My normal set up for him is Wade in and Hermanos De Armas, so for me he is pretty much 10ss.  Now does he show up for every master?  Not really, but he always shows up with Perdita and decently with Sonnia, McCabe, McMourning.  If I was running Lady J I would likely use him there enough.  Lucius has been odd for me as I want so many minion choices.  He ended up in plenty of lists at last Adepticon and he only died in like 3 out of 8 or 9 matches I took him.  More often than not he lives through about 50% of the games I use him.

 

Why I like him over the Judge?  He is a bit more vercatile in this set up for the same cost as the judge.  The guy is a swiss army knife.  He is not as tough as the Judge but better rounded in my opinion.  With Finese or a (0) heal he has two defensive steps that the Judge does not have the option for.  He also has a way to break your models out of combat easier with his Enfrentate a Mi.  Damage wise in my opinion he beats the Judge.  While they have similar damage on their main attack, melee, the fact Francisco has Ml7 to Ml6 is huge in my opinion plus Francisco beats him out by 1" on the charge.  Even in shooting Francisco has a Sh6 to Sh5, the only advantage the judge might have in shooting is the trigger to take another attack but Sh5 and damage prevention can really hurt that.  Next Francisco has El Major which can be useful on pretty much anyone you use it on.

 

With Perdita I do not leash him to her all game, but often they are tag teaming turn 1 going into turn 2 at least.  While I will say that having two Df7 might generally be more useful I can think of a couple reasons a Df9 Perdita is solid.  The first is the mind game, if your opponent thinks she is untouchable head on they will generally not even try even with high stat attacks.  This for me is important when my opponents have models like Langston, Lady Justice, or the like on the table.  A 7 in their attack stat is a clear threat to Perdita with out El Major, more so when they can get positives to their damage flips.  Them having a 13 and a 12 in their hand might mean two solid hits on Perdita that I don't have the options to heal generally.  With Df9 they will often forgo her to try and target something else *possible Francisco* but it means she often gets the chance to take out said threat.  Now if I don't feel much threat to her, ya I like giving that Witchling Stalker or Papa Loco the bonus to get them up to a more respectable defense.

 

With McCabe generally Francisco tag teams with something in my crew initially then serves as a trouble shooter.  He often likes pulling a model forward to give me extra movement first turn and maybe give the model McCabe is going to buff like crazy for an attack run El Mayor.  He often is useful to give the +2 to models if I worry about lure as it helps prevent lure and if they do helps save them from attack.  Having a Warden with Df7 and Wp7 makes for a rough model to remove with out dedicating your best hitter to the task.

 

The thing that bothers me the most about Francisco is that I still feel El Mayor was a bad game design issue, at least as it is.  As it is, it forces alot of future proofing and I personally feel a bit to strong for an ability that can last as long as it does *not end of turn* for the models it does *any friendly*.  So while I will not say he is OP, as he does not break the game, I think he might be a little to good.

[HowNot2Wargame]

Personally if I really need to tank... Judge with LLC and a peace keeper with McCabe. Then throw elixir of life between them. Its half the crew but for turf war it helps me to claim and be aggressive at the same time. With Harpoon and prepare for judgement, you can also get people sucked into your death machine. If you do have points spare Abuela can help with this with listen up young un

I love franciso, but I never take him with Abuela so you can at least place him with your fight is with me with listen up young un and then he can flurry away. El mayor is great but most of the time he's causing mayhem away from the rest so I rarely get to place it past turn 3 anyway

[DeleteAccount]

I face Francisco constantly, I absolutely hate him since I have to pass through him before I can actually start assaulting the master he may be protecting for the first couple of turns, he hits like a truck in melee with easy access to weak damage 4 on a Ml 7 weapon and also happens to be Companion which is another huge tool in his arsenal. Yes, I kill him usually by turn 3, but because I end up focusing an unreal amount of resources to remove him quickly so I can quickly pass on to take down or neutralize the enemy master, you simply cannot allow Perdita or Lady J to run around without any form of interference unless you can make enough chaff to keep them honest and Francisco gives them that breathing room between Enfrentate a mi and making them hell to menace.

 

Francisco with Wade In is probably one of the top tier henchman in the game, and certainly as a resser/10T, if I had access to him, all my other similar costed henchman would go to the backburner in favor of him except for Toshiro, and we all know that Toshiro isn't exactly "lightfisted" either.

 

No, he does not break the game, but like EternalVoid I feel El Mayor it was an ill conceived ability, just like Papa Loco's Hold this, such a HUGE buff that happens to not be a condition and can last almost 2 full turns with a single application is pretty disgusting in my eyes, and if anybody doubts my words, then please, look at how many effects have come out working like that in the wave 2, where they pretty much dissapeared, the same as stuff like Devour. That two of the strongest buffs of the game also happen to be immune to condition removal and last such a long time is pretty bad in my eyes now that I pretty much have to deal with it constantly. Papa Loco at least has the decency of being a pretty irregular package in the rest of his card.

[zFiend]

I face Francisco constantly, I absolutely hate him since I have to pass through him before I can actually start assaulting the master he may be protecting for the first couple of turns, he hits like a truck in melee with easy access to weak damage 4 on a Ml 7 weapon and also happens to be Companion which is another huge tool in his arsenal. Yes, I kill him usually by turn 3, but because I end up focusing an unreal amount of resources to remove him quickly so I can quickly pass on to take down or neutralize the enemy master, you simply cannot allow Perdita or Lady J to run around without any form of interference unless you can make enough chaff to keep them honest and Francisco gives them that breathing room between Enfrentate a mi and making them hell to menace.

 

Francisco with Wade In is probably one of the top tier henchman in the game, and certainly as a resser/10T, if I had access to him, all my other similar costed henchman would go to the backburner in favor of him except for Toshiro, and we all know that Toshiro isn't exactly "lightfisted" either.

 

No, he does not break the game, but like EternalVoid I feel El Mayor it was an ill conceived ability, just like Papa Loco's Hold this, such a HUGE buff that happens to not be a condition and can last almost 2 full turns with a single application is pretty disgusting in my eyes, and if anybody doubts my words, then please, look at how many effects have come out working like that in the wave 2, where they pretty much dissapeared, the same as stuff like Devour. That two of the strongest buffs of the game also happen to be immune to condition removal and last such a long time is pretty bad in my eyes now that I pretty much have to deal with it constantly. Papa Loco at least has the decency of being a pretty irregular package in the rest of his card.

 

I absolutely agree with Razhem on this post. Really well put and couldn't have said better myself. Also EternalVoid put it really well. 

 

I think they are definitely a bit too much as they are. 

[dgraz]

 That two of the strongest buffs of the game also happen to be immune to condition removal and last such a long time is pretty bad in my eyes

This part I can really understand. 

 

I just see so many ways around it that I don't see it as hateful as some. It's a short range, and there are so many movement effects in the game that you can move him outside of his ability to use it. Separating him and bogging him down is super effective.

 

And I don't see that he is as tanky as people claim. He can be fairly tanky if your willing to dump all of your resources on him.....high cards and SS....but that's any Henchman. Lots of things in his price range can take him down in one activation. With Wade In he is a 9ss model....with Df 5 Wd 8 and H2K.....big whoop. One Cerberus charge kills him.......a couple of cheaper ranged models can kill him in one turn....a couple of Stalkers can kill him in one turn.....most damage dealers at or above his price range can kill him in one turn....plenty of masters can do it in one activation.....and I don't think investing a master's activation to remove a lynch-pin model to be an unreal amount of resources (I couldn't tell you how many 7-10ss models I've killed with masters for their activation). I just don't see the 'unreal amount of resources to take him down' portion of the problem. 

[Myyrä]

Having a tanky model is only useful if your opponent wants to hit it, and many people like to hit Frank.

[Dirial]

and many people like to hit Frank.

 

Probably due to his douche stache.

[lusciousmccabe]

I wouldn't describe Frank as OP really, he's just very efficient and that makes him an attractive choice in a lot of crews. He's good at basically everything and contributes a few unique tricks without making you jump through any serious hoops to get them (unless you want to try keep El Mayor on all game, but I wouldn't bother) so he's a satisfying and easy to use model who rarely disappoints when you bring him along.

 

I'd just as soon as call Johan broken, because he does the his trick when you want it and is still worth his points when you don't.

[DeleteAccount]

Having a tanky model is only useful if your opponent wants to hit it, and many people like to hit Frank.

This is huge, that Fuhatsu is one of the hardest models to take out int he game means jackshit the moment he is completely castrated by a guild hound or night terror that engages him. Stuff like Francisco or Izamu on the other hand DEMAND attention and DEMAND to be dealt with extreme prejudice.

[HowNot2Wargame]

Tanks have big guns (matron!) After all

[RagingRodian]

I always figured Francisco was like training wheels for Guild, much like the Mechanical Rider is for Arcanists. 

 

First time I played against El Mayor I had one of those "you have to be kidding me" moments. 

 

So it ends at the end of the turn, right? No? Really?

 

So it ends if the model you give it to moves more than 2 inches away, right? No? Seriously it doesn't?

 

At least it is a condition so you can use condition removal against it, right? Wait, that doesn't work either?

 

There has to be a restriction on who you can give it to though, right? Wait, any friendly model? Does it really say that?

 

El Mayor should have been a condition that ends at the end of the turn, that would have made Frank still worthwhile without setting a bad precedence in the game and keeping him from being a training wheels choice. Unfortunately, short of an errata we are pretty much stuck with it as it is.