Dreamer: Surviving Sonnia?

[Bodiless]

Stuck in traffic on the way in this morning I was thinking about my new Dreamer crew and possible matchups. It occurred to me that if Sonnia got range and LOS to him she will probably kill him in a single activation and there is very little he can do about it. Ca 9 with a positive flip against Df 4 means she will hit him easily even through cover, and Safe in My Bed only allows him to push attacks off onto a model within 3" - easily in range to get tagged with blasts. With only 6 wounds if your opponent has anything like a decent hand I can't see him surviving. 

 

 

Having never used Dreamer is there a trick that would keep him alive here that I am not seeing? Does it come down to making sure he is not, in fact, in line of sight or range? I feel like I should put a disclaimer on this up front that I am not saying this matchup is unfair or unwinnable or anything like that - just trying to see if understand how that would play out.

 

[Dirial]

Don't worry, Sonnia is not the only one that can do this. Rasputina is equally bad news for Dreamer. 

 

Joking aside, I have never played against Dreamer, and thus cannot say anything meaningful about this problem.

[Myyrä]

Stuck in traffic on the way in this morning I was thinking about my new Dreamer crew and possible matchups. It occurred to me that if Sonnia got range and LOS to him she will probably kill him in a single activation and there is very little he can do about it. Ca 9 with a positive flip against Df 4 means she will hit him easily even through cover, and Safe in My Bed only allows him to push attacks off onto a model within 3" - easily in range to get tagged with blasts. With only 6 wounds if your opponent has anything like a decent hand I can't see him surviving. 

 

 

Having never used Dreamer is there a trick that would keep him alive here that I am not seeing? Does it come down to making sure he is not, in fact, in line of sight or range? I feel like I should put a disclaimer on this up front that I am not saying this matchup is unfair or unwinnable or anything like that - just trying to see if understand how that would play out.

Staying outside her LoS and range would be the advisable course of action. Lucky for you, she is quite slow and not many things in Guild can help her with that. You could also try and out activate her and hide behind Chompy until Sonnia has activated.

Edit: Oh, and putting stuff in close combat with her will hinder her damage quite a bit too. Same can be said for Raspy and Wong.

[MasterDisaster]

Don't worry, Sonnia is not the only one that can do this. Rasputina is equally bad news for Dreamer. 

 

Joking aside, I have never played against Dreamer, and thus cannot say anything meaningful about this problem.

 

Wong too! 

 

This does sounds like a pretty rough situation for the Dreamer to be in though. 

[Bodiless]

Staying outside her LoS and range would be the advisable course of action. Lucky for you, she is quite slow and not many things in Guild can help her with that. You could also try and out activate her and hide behind Chompy until Sonnia has activated.

 

 

I'm pretty sure you can't have Chompy and Dreamer on the board at the same time. Unless you mean have Dreamer wake into Chompy so he is not actually present during her activation? But even hiding behind something big like a Teddy is not necessarily going to save him, because then she can just spark the blasts off of Teddy instead. 

 

@ Dirial - Yep, Rasputina would also be a serious problem. Really any blast-caster could do this trick, but they didn't have the alliteration of "Surviving Sonnia".

 

Ok, so it doesn't sound like I am missing the trick that would save him here - essentially you can't let the opponent get the shot off. So either he has to be entirely out of range or LOS, with no model nearby to spark a blast that could be walked into him, or you need to engage the opposing caster so they can't take the shot at all. 

[Insidiously Mad]

One thing I like to do if I am going to face one of the blasters is take Aether Connection and a large cache. That would you can tank the damage from blasts (which is usually 3-4 damage at post) by soul stoning. It will prevent at least two of the damage and often 3 or 4. Its resource heavy so its more of a backup to keeping out of LOS, but it is still a useful tactic. Hiding behind teddy also works because with Impossible to Wound it is not that likely that they will get blast markers from shooting teddy regardless of his low df, especially if you use cover as well (waldgeists/stitched help here). also their is a ton of fast stuff in dreamer's crew so often throwing fast models into combat with Sonnia can really help (in theory)

[Myyrä]

Unless you mean have Dreamer wake into Chompy so he is not actually present during her activation?

Exactly what I meant.

[Bodiless]

Gotcha, thanks. I can see that managing transitions between Dreamer and Chompy is going to be one of, perhaps the?, key to using him effectively. Probably I will get his face melted off more than a few times before I get that right.

[Dirial]

@ Dirial - Yep, Rasputina would also be a serious problem. Really any blast-caster could do this trick, but they didn't have the alliteration of "Surviving Sonnia".

 

Let's see.... Recovering from Rasputina? 

 

Oh, oh, oh:

 

"What would thou do versus Wong?"

 

[Bodiless]

One thing I like to do if I am going to face one of the blasters is take Aether Connection and a large cache. That would you can tank the damage from blasts (which is usually 3-4 damage at post) by soul stoning. It will prevent at least two of the damage and often 3 or 4. Its resource heavy so its more of a backup to keeping out of LOS, but it is still a useful tactic. Hiding behind teddy also works because with Impossible to Wound it is not that likely that they will get blast markers from shooting teddy regardless of his low df, especially if you use cover as well (waldgeists/stitched help here). also their is a ton of fast stuff in dreamer's crew so often throwing fast models into combat with Sonnia can really help (in theory)

 

 

I had forgotten that Impossible to Wound would likely prevent blasts from sparking, since you would be flipping to wound against Teddy and not Dreamer. That makes him a much better bodyguard than I had thought previously - thanks!. 

 

 

If you go the Aether connection route, do you just take that combination any time your opponent declares Guild/Arcanist/Gremlins? The group I am playing in now has been around for a while, so most people have access to many if not all of the masters in their faction. If someone declares Guild, for example, I really can't assume that they won't be bringing Sonnia. It probably is not a bad idea for Dreamer regardless, but I try to shy away from plans that require me to know something about the opposing master. 

 

Edit: "Whoops, it's Wong!" ?

[admiralvorkraft]

Let's see.... Recovering from Rasputina? 

 

Oh, oh, oh:

 

"What would thou do versus Wong?"

 

Worried About Wong?

[hypoking]

Whilst wrought works of whimsy wreck vis-a-vis Wong?

 

On topic, yeah these match ups are an uphill battle for dreamer. They're also one of the things that holds him back just a little from frolicking through the meta like an unstoppable delightful juggernaut, so probably for the best.

[Bodiless]

Whilst wrought works of whimsy wreck vis-a-vis Wong?

 

On topic, yeah these match ups are an uphill battle for dreamer. They're also one of the things that holds him back just a little from frolicking through the meta like an unstoppable delightful juggernaut, so probably for the best.

 

Is there any crew Sonnia *isn't* an uphill battle for?

[The Godlyness]

Freikorp. She can single target dps things but at that point you feel like a worse Perdita.

[hypoking]

With the most recent faq I'd also say Hamelin, funnily enough.

[Trinecity]

With the most recent faq I'd also say Hamelin, funnily enough.

 

Which part are you referring to exactly?  Just curious...

[Bodiless]

I notice that the main thing those two crews have in common is not being Neverborn.

[Tuttleboy]

Don't forget he's HT 1, use terrain where possible and always have at least 2 models to shove damage off and keep you rself some for prevention and a severe to cheat in on that reduction as well if you can.

[The Godlyness]

I notice that the main thing those two crews have in common is not being Neverborn.

You never said what never born crews aren't an uphill battle lol. But in that case lilitu with some Waldgeists. Make your own terrain and cover and have the speed and tricks to neutralize her crew.

[Bodiless]

I don't think soft cover is going to do too much to protect Dreamer from Sonnia. It would cancel her positive flip, but that still leaves you on Df 4 vs Ca 9. Not great odds. Having a nightmare in hard cover would help though, since that would put a negative flip on the damage and reduce the odds of generating blasts (if I understand Safe in My Bed correctly). But staying out of los, staying out of range, rushing forward to engage, disappearing off the board and letting chompy take the hit, transferring the hit to Teddy and his Impossible to Wound, Aether Connection and plenty of stones, those all seem like viable tactics for keeping him alive even against Sonnia. 

[Nical]

How about Mysterious Effigy's (0) Action? 

[The Godlyness]

I don't think soft cover is going to do too much to protect Dreamer from Sonnia. It would cancel her positive flip, but that still leaves you on Df 4 vs Ca 9. Not great odds. Having a nightmare in hard cover would help though, since that would put a negative flip on the damage and reduce the odds of generating blasts (if I understand Safe in My Bed correctly). But staying out of los, staying out of range, rushing forward to engage, disappearing off the board and letting chompy take the hit, transferring the hit to Teddy and his Impossible to Wound, Aether Connection and plenty of stones, those all seem like viable tactics for keeping him alive even against Sonnia.

Damage is flipped before you pass it off.

[Insidiously Mad]

Sorry I wasn't clear on that. I meant that if you are hiding behind teddy and they are shooting him to attempt to hit you with the blast. 

[Csonti]

With two turns of heavy summoning you will most probably outactivate Sonnia around the middle of turn 2. If you were cautious not to wander into direct LoS till that time you can launch a Teddy missile forward with Daydreams. Of course she can try to cross your plans with careful model and pillar placement but in case of a flying Teddy this is still a hard task. You most probably can lay down 1 or 2 hits on her which is not enough but you can Peekaboo! her around where she will be more prone to other attacks and your Teddy is on a more safer spot against her crew. And if you win the next turn initiative, chances are high that after a Flurry Sonnia will be near dead with low or zero SS in her bag. Even if she wins the init Teddy can most probably survive the first assault aimed to dispatch him and then he regens and starts eating face meanwhile transporting Sonnia towards you to finish her.

 

Of course the whole thing means that you have to be super cautious during turns 1-2 which is certainly a problem in some scenarios.

[Adran]

The dreamers players biggest problem, is that normally their crew is one the opponent has to learn to play around, where as the dreamer needs to change tactics to face a blasty master. (If you're in the Waking Aura, you can possibly be used to put blasts on the dreamer. You're normal defense of shifting off the attack doesn't save you anywhere near as much. )

 

Hide more, summon less and push you summons away with his tactical action if they are at risk of being a blast targtet.

dreamer is one of the best conditon removal in the game, and Sonnia works a lot better if she doesn't need line of sight. Knowing when its worth activating Dreamer to remove Burning is a vital skill, as you on'y get 1 activation of it.