When to use Focus or Defend?

[CapnBloodbeard]

So, as a new player, one thing I don't really use (nobody in my 'newbies' group does) is focus and Defend.  I still have the mindset of 'but....surely 2 attacks is better than 1!', same sort of thing with Defend.

 

So, what's your advice/tips on when to (or not to) use focus or Defend?

 

I figure focus can be good on models that get a particular boost from it (eg Nino who gets a range boost, assuming the range boost would be helpful), or on models with a big damage spread between weak and moderate..

 

I suppose being a new player I still want to keep 'doing stuff'.  I don't even like walking less than the maximum range

[asrian]

Ways/Times I use them:

Focus - When I want to ensure, or at least increase the odds, of hitting a target or having a straight/   flip. 

Typically if I'm fighting someone that puts me at a   flip (via their defenses), or if I have a high card in hand that I want to potentially cheat in I'll focus first. Most of the time in the game, which you'll notice as you and your group plays more, the average damage flip is on a  . A common tactic for someone defending is to cheat just high enough to make the Attack flip a  (Example: Defender has a total of 9, Attacker has a total of 18, difference of 9 which means straight flip. Defender cheats up to a 13 at least, and now the difference is 5 so the Attacker is on a   and more likely to do minimum damage). Focus can help offset things like this for the attacker.

It can also be used for special rules as you mentioned (sniper who gets a longer range if focused. Zoraida has an ability that puts all attacks at a   unless the attack Focuses), or to just make one ability, overall, do the most it potentially can (Seamus' gun, for example, is a once a turn use ability. Better, imho, to focus and make full use of his high damage spread then waste your one shot and do weak damage or miss). 

It's not guaranteed that you'll do better focusing, but it does up the odds in your favor.



Defense Stance - Same as Focus, but for Df (does NOT apply to WP). When you want to ensure you have the best chance to survive. It costs a card and AP, but sometimes it's worth it.

It lasts until that model next activates, so can be done early in a turn on one model, then that model isn't used until late next turn so retains it throughout. I typically use Df stance if I have a model guarding a Scheme/Strat marker, or occasionally on a Master/Henchman who I know is about to get attacked and I have no way to get them out of the line of fire, or even if I want to just waste the enemy's AP on one of my models that's keeping them tied up.

Other ways to use it is on models that are trying to disengage. Go defensive then attempt to walk away. The enemy gets a disengaging strike, and you get to defend on  , increasing your odds of drawing a high card. It can also be used to offset someone else's bonuses. If you know, or suspect a model is about to attack your model and that enemy model will potentially have a  from an innate ability or focus, then go defense to even the odds if you're able. 

I'm sure other players have more uses than the above. That was just a few off the top of my head.

Best of luck to you and your group, and Welcome to Malifaux. 

[SpiralngCadavr]

Focus: trying to mitigate a negative flip, either to hit (cover) or to damage (force my opponent to spend a higher card to defend, since I'll only not be able to cheat on ties, which may not be possible if my opponent can't match me (doesn't have the cards or stats)).

 

About the only time I use it for the positive is if my opponent is low/out of cards- 2 flips vs. 1 has a better chance of getting the higher card, which normally doesn't matter as much if I think my opponent can just cheat from his hand and it's a middling card vs. a low card, but if he can't, then I might be able to edge past.

 

Defensive: If I think it'll be more beneficial to spend the action on defense than positioning or attacking. Most often if I want a piece to tie up an opposing point or I'm expecting my opponent to concentrate on killing it before it can activate again.  Also if the model has a defensive trigger.

[CapnBloodbeard]

I suppose defensive stance could be good if, for instance, I know one of my models is about to cop 4 attacks (Misaki's Stalk, I'm looking at you!)

 

Thanks heaps for the detailed post

[Hateful Darkblack]

Focus: When fighting Yin the Penangalan. When shooting into cover. When your Moderate and Severe damage are WAY better than your Weak. When you're using a sniper ability for longer range.

 

Defense: When you have some stray cards and nothing else to do. When you have a good Df score (or lots of Armor) and just need to hold your position. When you have extra Defensive bonuses. When there's an onslaught of models coming.

[Rob Lo]

Focus and defensive are the rules you learn to love when you start thinking about the math behind the awesome card dueling mechanic of the game. On one level, it's fun to be flipping cards against your opponent for a duel. But when you know the math wants to work out to weak damage most of the time, and you'd need 4 weak shots to do as much damage as one severe, you start to think, hey, focus is a pretty great thing right now.

 

Think of any hand you've ever dealt yourself at the beginning of a turn. Maybe there's a couple cards in there you set aside as being for specific abilities you want to make happen (a summon or whatever). After that, you've got maybe one high card, and a few low cards. Are you better served by using that one high card to cheat on an unfocused attack flip to make that attack hit for weak, or on a focused attack where you can now cheat that severe on the damage flip instead? And each of those low cards? That could be a defensive, or double defensive (still for one card!) for a guy you've got sitting somewhere holding turf war or protect territory.They weren't good enough to cheat in to protect you from an attack, but they give you the next best thing, a second random card flipped from your deck, and maybe that's the one that saves you from a rabid teddy bear.

 

Going a little more abstract, don't forget the psychological benefits of using focus/defensive. Want to 'suggest' to your opponent to move models in a particular direction? Put a couple guys up front, defensive the one on the left but not the one on the right. Your opponent is probably going to shift to your right, opening up the left for more freedom for positioning/scheme runners.

 

After the first one or two focused shots, your opponent will spend more time finding the right hiding spots to keep his guys alive, limiting his movement and ability to be where he wants to be. Is he guarding a marker somewhere in cover and thinking he's safe? Focus a shot in there, make him worry that one model isn't really enough to guard that marker. Maybe they overcommit a second guard, when it could have been better used elsewhere.

[Drool_bucket]

Okay,

 

I like and agree with a lot that is said above, but I'll add some of my own takes to both.

 

Defensive Stance robs you of two separate resources, an AP and a card.  Coupled with it's very nature as a "reactive" condition that does not accomplish anything without your opponent choosing to do so, I find myself using it less and less.  I would rather discard a low card at end of turn, removing it from the Fate Deck for a turn, than randomly Defensive Stance, in many cases. 

 

Focus, well, Focus is probably the most powerful, under used ability in my local meta.  But I don't mean that Focus should be used a lot, but instead in particular circumstances it should become a theme.  The most common occurrence is when you have seen approximately 1/2 your Fate Deck for a turn without seeing most of the Severes.  Even more when the RJ hasn't appeared and the turn still have many duels left.  I count 13's and loosely keep track of 12's and 11's.  If you haven't seen many high cards, its time to start Focusing... often seeing the exact same amount of cards, but only using the higher of the two.  (or whatever number) 

 

Focus, is also about defeating certain abilities and conditions.  (and other game effects)   Hitting an armor+1 model twice for 2 damage is not as good as hitting it once for 4 or 5 damage, which is a pretty common dmg spread, 2/4/5.... 

 

Focus is also about models with notably higher Mod/Sev damage or when Blasts will have value against clumped opponents. 

 

Focus is also about that RJ in your hand. 

 

Focus is something minions and many enforcers should consider, especially if they have a notable Stat superiority to their target.  (Ml 6 vs Df4 for example)  I don't enjoy using my Fate Hand on lesser models and by Focusing they often "get their best shot in" without needing to draw upon my other resources.

 

Those are some of my thoughts.

[Matney X]

A little off topic, but someone in a podcast mentioned that they get rid of the RJ in their hand as soon as possible.  Their reasoning is that, in their hand, it's just a 14 of any suit -- unless you're lucky enough to have a 13 that will get you to a point you can cheat the RJ for damage, or you need to get a trigger off.  

In their deck, however, it's a 14 of any suit that can't be cheated against.  I've cheated the RJ in and been one-upped by a 13, but had I flipped that it couldn't have happened.

Their main point, though, was holding onto it for a perfect situation gives it the chance to go unused for an entire turn or two.  At least it's going to be flipped when it's in your deck.

[StuffedKiwi]

Rathnard has a good article on Focus and Defensive Stance in Chronicles #14, available for free download (and great reading!) from this website -- just go to Downloads on the bar at the top of this screen.

[CapnBloodbeard]

Played my first tournament today - and followed the advice on this forum on focus (didn't really use defensive stance).  Actually used focus quite a lot (had never used it before), I think it made a huge difference to the game.  Especially with von Schill

 

Trapper, every turn.  Discard a low card, focus shot on a far model, second shot on a close model.  Awesome.

 

Used it on quite a few other models too.

 

so a tremendous thank you to everybody here - you've helped my game massively!!

[jonahmaul]

Trapper, every turn.  Discard a low card, focus shot on a far model, second shot on a close model.  Awesome.

You don't discard a card to focus, it costs 1AP.  So to focus shot it costs 2AP in total (1 to focus and 1 for the shot) so you couldn't shoot one thing at 28" range and another at 14" range without somehow giving the Trapper an extra AP.

[moxypoo]

You don't discard a card to focus, it costs 1AP.  So to focus shot it costs 2AP in total (1 to focus and 1 for the shot) so you couldn't shoot one thing at 28" range and another at 14" range without somehow giving the Trapper an extra AP.

He could have been using "I Pay Better" on Von Schill or someone else to get this effect.

 

The advice in this thread is very good, especially Drool_Bucket's excellent post.

[Gorbad]

Another time to consider using focus is when hitting something (regardless of damage) have an important effect. It could be you have an effect on your attack that you need to go off or it could be that the threat of that effect will force your opponent to try and cheat out of the hit and focusing makes it much more likely they will have to spend a good card to do so. Same can apply to needing a suit for a trigger, it just makes it more likely that you get it. It's not always the 'optimal' use of resources, but if you can't spare the card to cheat for something it can be a viable alternative.

[CapnBloodbeard]

Another time to consider using focus is when hitting something (regardless of damage) have an important effect. It could be you have an effect on your attack that you need to go off or it could be that the threat of that effect will force your opponent to try and cheat out of the hit and focusing makes it much more likely they will have to spend a good card to do so. Same can apply to needing a suit for a trigger, it just makes it more likely that you get it. It's not always the 'optimal' use of resources, but if you can't spare the card to cheat for something it can be a viable alternative.

 

Good point.  I started to find that focus not only increased my hit chances but seemed to significantly increase my chance of doing at least moderate damage.  Interesting to note that none of my opponents used focus.  Also great for taking out necessary minions.

Only downside to using focus with the trapper - he already has a  flip to attack, using focus to gain     on attack usually just mean I was pointlessly burning another high card.  But oh well, worth it for the damage flip.  Made the difference between Trapper actually being useful, and Trapper occasionally just doing 1 point of damage (which probably also explains why I didn't like Nino first few times I played Guild)

[Adran]

Another time to consider using focus is when hitting something (regardless of damage) have an important effect. It could be you have an effect on your attack that you need to go off or it could be that the threat of that effect will force your opponent to try and cheat out of the hit and focusing makes it much more likely they will have to spend a good card to do so. Same can apply to needing a suit for a trigger, it just makes it more likely that you get it. It's not always the 'optimal' use of resources, but if you can't spare the card to cheat for something it can be a viable alternative.

 

I disagree with this.

If you just want the effect to go off with the least input from you, then you are better off attempting the action twice rather than once with a  . This will force the most resources from your opponent to stop you.

 

Occasional circumstances, like only being allowed 1 attempt a turn because its a (0) or something similar will change that, but as a general rule 2 attempts is better if its a binary result.

[CapnBloodbeard]

If the effect requires damage though.....

[dancater]

Another reason to consider Defensive Stance is when you have a model which does damage on a disengaging strike, especially if they have good damage and a 2" melee range and several targets inside that range. You defensive stance and then challenge your opponents to move away or attack a difficult to hit model.