Sensitivity in the painting community

[Ferossa]

You can listen to what the poster is saying about their model, and moderate your standards based on how the poster feels about the model. (And if they don't have anything to say about their work, why should they expect you to have anything to say about it?)

 

"I FINALLY finished this model! The [part] took forever!"

Standards: You didn't murder anyone to paint the model in the blood of frustration! Good job! I also like your lighting effects.

 

"New crew! Painted over the week for a weekend tournament."

Standards: Decent tabletop quality. Do the colours show up? Are the details clear? Most people at this level know what they need to work on, but they don't know how to achieve it. If you offer one or two general suggestions on their weak points instead of critiquing specific details, it's usually better received. "Is that COLOUR? I washed over that with OTHER COLOUR and it looked really cool for REASONS." Lead the horse to water is what I'm saying.

 

"Practice models for a painting tournament! What do you think?"

Standards: Now we dance in peer-to-peer combat. (Er, like a sparring match. For training. No hitting below the belt.)

[Rwwin]

This topic has been pretty well thrashed out but I'd like to offer a view from the lower end of the painting spectrum.  I'm a gamer that paints to tabletop standard.  Not because I don't know how to do better and not because I need pointers, but because on a good week I get maybe one to two hours to model and paint.  It also doesn't help that I suffer from deuteranopia (partial red-green color blindness).

 

I'm not overly sensitive and don't have any illusions that I paint to anything better than average, but statements like this below say to me that you've just made a massive assumption about the person that posted the picture.

 

And that is exactly what I mean, you wont get better if you just keep doing the same, repeating the same mistakes every time.

 

If someone isn't asking for criticism, why assume they want it?  As some have said, maybe they're just proud to have gotten something off their desk and onto the table.  If you don't think a figure is well painted, or the technique is poor, you're not under any obligation to praise it, but why is it your job to set them straight?

 

Now if someone asks for honest feedback and then can't handle it when done offered, that's a different issue.

[Ausplosions]

If you place your work online. Whether you want critical feedback or not, you need to keep in mind that you may get it. If you don't want any, either say so VERY clearly in the post, or DON'T put your work up.....

[Rwwin]

If you place your work online. Whether you want critical feedback or not, you need to keep in mind that you may get it. If you don't want any, either say so VERY clearly in the post, or DON'T put your work up.....

  

I mostly agree with that, but it completely misses my point.  This wasn't a thread started by a painter complaining about criticism they received, it was started because Ikvar didn't understand why his well intentioned comments received the kind of blowback they did.  Ikvar seemed to genuinely not understatnd why his criticism was met with hostility.  I beleive it was partly because he made some incorrect assumptions about what the posters were looking for.

 

Your statement could just as easily be turned around to say that if you post criticism to a painter, for either good or bad intentions, you should expect a negative response from the recipient.  I don't believe that's the right spirit either.  Folks who have a burning need to offer criticism should take a moment to determine if it's really what someone wants.

[Math Mathonwy]

DISCLAIMER: This isn't aimed at anyone in particular, just general musings.

The flip side, I think, is that often criticism fails. The most obvious ways are naturally that it is given too bluntly, concerns a matter of opinion or is flat out wrong. Those are all common enough, but then there are more subtle ways in which criticism can fail.

1) It can concern some essentially one-off thing that, unless you strip the model in question, can't be helped.

Criticism is only useful if it is something that you can actually learn from, but if someone, for example, painted some detail obviously wrong by mistake and this is then pointed out to him - what is he to do with that information?

He likely won't strip the model so all you've managed is to point out a flaw that will probably annoy him for a long time to come and he might take out his frustration (wrongly) on the critic.

2) The painter might know fully well that a particular thing isn't as it should be but either isn't skilled enough to do anything about, tried, failed and got frustrated, or, perhaps most commonly, can't be arsed.

Now, this is often something that the critic really cannot know and therefore the blame lies on the painter if he lashes out but it can be a natural impulse in all those cases.

Take me, for example. My painting isn't very stellar. It is a nice, high table top standard but really, I won't be winning show-case contests any time soon.

But that doesn't mean that I don't know about high-end painting. I know how euro-style painting differs from Eavy metal style painting, I know about focal points, I know about colour theory, I know about the cold and warm and saturated shadows and all that jazz.

Now, this doesn't mean that critique can't tell me new things. Far from it - the breadth and depth of painting is vaster than one mind can fathom but still, I paint far worse than I know. So many times the criticism I receive is something that I knew already. The critique failed, in a way, but through no fault of the critic.

3) Somewhat tied to the previous point, but still different - the critique might be entirely inconsequential. If I'm painting "faces and bases" style, then pointing out that a certain detail isn't smooth isn't useful. The focus of the piece is elsewhere and I'm not interested in other things. Or maybe I'm taking a shortcut and applying some sort of method that makes certain parts uninteresting to me.

This is slightly different from the previous point in that here the critic has a fair chance to notice what the painter is doing and might realize that they shouldn't criticize inconsequential bits. Or they might not and often through no fault of their own, again.

So yeah, to summarize, when offering advice try to think slightly outside the box, give a different angle and something that can be done in the future to other minis. Saying "blend smoother" is boring and useless, say "try putting purple to the shadows of the skin to make it more lively".

---

Also, a word on compliments. Don't say "Great painting! However, X, Y, and Z should be done differently." Say why you think that the painting is great! This is super important. General "platitudes" fall flat if you then go to criticize the work in fine detail.

So yeah, not disagreeing with Ikvar so much as trying to point out how to critique more valuably. Positive stuff is easy to do, constructive criticism is really, really hard!

[Poko]

Interesting observation on taking criticsm, as someone mentioned "everyone wins" culture as being at fault- I grew up in a place with the very opposite of that- "if you're not the best, then perhaps you should consider removing yourself from the genepool" is the general attitude..and it also makes taking criticism hard, because in that kind of enviroment, any criticism is meant as a way to sink you, not make you better, so it has to be met with outright denial or agression. Both giving and taking critique is a skill, and not just something that happens by itself.

 

Anyway, that being said, I think, as some have pointed out, the biggest piece of contention is that wargaming has two groups of people in it- the ones primarily caring about gameplay and for whom the minis are merely tokens, and the painters that happen to play the game. The first group will be happy to be able to paint a mini and make it resemble the cover art at all, the latter will be puzzled why the first don't try to improve. I eventually learned to get better, but for the lonest time I was happy to just slap paint and have the models look not terrible at arm's lenght...and no amount of critique would have me change my ways, because as trite as it sounds, you have to want to change for criticism to have any positive impact.

 

And that means there's no hard and fast way to figure out if you should or should not give critique, it's all about context. If the guy or gal is "I did it, the damn model is done" or "This crew looks great, i can finally play with it"...it's very likely they wont care for your criticism, because they have no desire to compare themselves to actual painting masters. If they're "i finished this piece, and it looks nice, but i'm sure it could be better" then they do want some criticsm, obviously.  But overall, if something looks bad to you, you probably should limit yourself to "that's nice, also, adding black wash would make the details pop" rather than full blown "here's how you can improve" tirade.

[Cavalierartist]

I would suggest that, in the online universe where trolls make a career of doling out unsolicited, offensive and derogatory comments to belittle folks they don't know, many people are gun shy. I agree that tone and intent are everything in a critique. I have worked for thirty years as an art teacher and have found that the manner in which I critique must be carefully considered. On the other hand, I have posted my painting efforts both on this forum and on A Wyrd Place, hoping for some constructive criticism, and receiving vague "likes" or worse, silence. I can at least pull something positive with crushing criticism, but what does one do with a lack of advice or a thumbs up?

[Clawz]

I've recently run into a bunch of this online...

 

I have long held that theory of human communication, about the grand majority being facial expression and (audio) tone used whilst saying it. As a result, I tend to hold any statement said online as either lighthearted, ironic, or not-meant-to-offend, and it always makes me double-take when someone takes something I say as hostile, since it's really not worth it to get into something like that on the 'net.

 

I come from a university program that expected the ability to give and receive criticism. In any (graphic design) critique, it was an almost clinical "this is working, this isn't working, have you considered this" kind of structure: not fawning praise, not attacks.

 

Generally with someone's work, it's fairly easy to judge the overall level of painting skill upon looking at it, and so you'll be able to cater your feedback accordingly. Plus, if someone's posting saying "hey look at this thing I made" versus "Here's my work, critiques welcome"...

 

(Though even then, I once was dragged into a lengthy... 'debate' with someone who specifically welcomed critiques and then went very defensive upon receiving any.)

 

I think the TL;DR I'd use for my stuff is: Assume they're not meaning to be offensive, and generally cater any comments to the level of work.

[ehren37]

... But I did not say it was wrong, I just pointed out a random fact that Wyrd had said it was actually her skin, and not cloth as most people think it is. Where in that sentence did I say it was wrong of him to paint it as cloth? O_o

 

 

 

 

Wyrd can say its skin all they want, and I'll file it away in the same category as "Greedo always shot first, you just didn't notice because of.... uhh... cropping". My guess is someone painted the towel "flesh" colored for the card/book and they rolled with it and made it cannon. The original mini's art had it clearly as a towel (and its looks to be separate from her on the new one too), To me, it looks silly as skin, since its the wrong size, shape, and really makes no sense of what she's doing with it.

 

When I give advice, I try and keep it within the person's skill level to something relatively easily achievable. A baby step up if you will. So I'm not going  to say "hey, that cloak is a pretty flat area, why don't you do some free hand on it" when they're struggling with basic shading. 

[sigmar3]

What an interesting topic this is. I'll add some musings too, do with them what you will.

I think there should be a general acceptance that if you put photos of your work on a wip blog- or a site that has a rating system even, like cmon- you will get feedback, some good, some constructive criticism, and some but hopefully not too much negative. As already said you can always block the outright rude people if you want. But I would think this is a standard life lessen basically. A 'not everyone will like you' thing. If feedback is constructive there shouldn't really be any problem.

I tend to, especially if I think someone is a beginner as such, give feedback along the lines of pointing out the things I like about a model. I hope this gives encouragement to the person without doing the over the top "it's fantastic" thing (which probably would lead to them not accepting criticism when they finally do get some). It might not be too constructive but I always feel there are a lot more experienced people on the forums who would be able to advise better than me. Such as most of you guys!

I suppose there are a few factors to consider when you do give feedback, two of which are age and what the models are for. If you can tell (which you can't 100% I realise) the person is a little younger, a beginner, then just be a little more encouraging I would say. And if someone is painting for gaming only and aren't too bothered about Golden Demon standard then again, you may as well just say what you admire, as they won't spend more time painting lol, they want to start gaming.

As Ikvar says I've seen posters get defensive over constructive critiques, although I think on occasion it boiled down to frustration on the posters part that they just couldn't achieve what the more advanced painters were advising. Once they got it...with practice...they chilled out again. I think we've all been flummoxed a few times and been given a tip and thought "but how, it's not working?!" Lol.

At the end of the day if someone asks for criticism or feedback, then seems to not to like or accept it all you can do is leave them to it really. Though I agree there is a ´nice' way to give criticism, so it can work both ways.

[Fog]

I've never posted anything I've painted out of sheer terror. I've spent three years struggling to learn some methods-painting does not come naturally to me. I'm not visual at all and have never been able to do anything in any manner resembling pretty. I force myself to improve, but my brush control is awful, I have no gift with color choice and I'll spend five hours to get a model to table top quality.

Am I proud of my work? You bet. Am I am artist? Not by any definition of the word. People brave enough to post their accomplishments should be lauded for their efforts. If you want critique you'll go looking for it. Posting in AWP shouldn't, and isn't, the place for that.

[Fog]

I've never posted anything I've painted out of sheer terror. I've spent three years struggling to learn some methods-painting does not come naturally to me. I'm not visual at all and have never been able to do anything in any manner resembling pretty. I force myself to improve, but my brush control is awful, I have no gift with color choice and I'll spend five hours to get a model to table top quality.

Am I proud of my work? You bet. Am I am artist? Not by any definition of the word. People brave enough to post their accomplishments should be lauded for their efforts. If you want critique you'll go looking for it. Posting in AWP shouldn't, and isn't, the place for that.

[Ikvar]

I've never posted anything I've painted out of sheer terror. I've spent three years struggling to learn some methods-painting does not come naturally to me. I'm not visual at all and have never been able to do anything in any manner resembling pretty. I force myself to improve, but my brush control is awful, I have no gift with color choice and I'll spend five hours to get a model to table top quality.

Am I proud of my work? You bet. Am I am artist? Not by any definition of the word. People brave enough to post their accomplishments should be lauded for their efforts. If you want critique you'll go looking for it. Posting in AWP shouldn't, and isn't, the place for that.

 

First of all, you saying that you use 5hours on a model tells me quite a lot, I can use 5hours just priming and getting the base colours on, a model can takes me several month to finish

 

... so you are telling me that everyone on the AWP side are so insecure that even the smallest suggestion will be frowned upon- no matter how kind I try to be, I am NEVER to do anything my praise their pictures and kiss their feet as the new big thing?

 

And I know I am not being very diplomatic right now, and I am sorry for that, but that last thing you wrote kinda tickled me all the wrong places...

[wobbly_goggy]

Glad this subject is getting some serious discussion!
As criticism has been largely covered, I'd like to point out that what irks me (most of this has been covered already) is that  a stream of 'WOW! Awesome'! could potentially be as unhelpful as comments which could be considered too critical. I think that if you have something encouraging(/negative) to say, explain why (the negative part has been covered at length...). A stream of exclamations at how wonderful a mini is are great up to a point, but start to look a bit disingenous, if not mildly condescending. If you think it's great... why? What part? Do you like what they did  with the colours there? Great OSL? Essentially I think feedback should be constructive whether positive or negative. You wouldn't just say 'Shit!', as it's completely unhelpful, and to some extent 'Great!' is equally unhelpful. Of course, one should always try to take into account the intention in posting minis in the first place, as discussed already at length.

[TychoTerziev]

Frankly, I would get annoyed by the "It's flesh, not  cloth"  comment. When I decided to paint my Doppleganger, I knew that this was skin and yet I decided to paint it as cloth, because it provided better contrast than the whole flesh/flayed flesh/flesh theme. Such "feedback" wouldn't give me anything. It's not much different than " Nephilim should be bluish , not that fleshy tone you chose". In such cases this is an artistic choice and has nothing to do with the quality of the paintjob itself , thus the value of the feedback is questionable. This can come as condescending indeed, without the use of such phrases like "I would have preferred flesh Instead of cloth, but...". Otherwise there is the possible implication that you know better in an area were "better" doesn't exactly exist.

[Fog]

First of all, you saying that you use 5hours on a model tells me quite a lot, I can use 5hours just priming and getting the base colours on, a model can takes me several month to finish

... so you are telling me that everyone on the AWP side are so insecure that even the smallest suggestion will be frowned upon- no matter how kind I try to be, I am NEVER to do anything my praise their pictures and kiss their feet as the new big thing?

And I know I am not being very diplomatic right now, and I am sorry for that, but that last thing you wrote kinda tickled me all the wrong places...

See, if you're taking months on a model then brava for you. I'm going to assume you're talking showcase models, because if that's what you consider tabletop I'd be amazed if you ever got a game in. You're arguing from a vastly different position and I'm pretty comfortable assuming you're the outlier.

And you can drop the hyperbole. No one is asking for candy coated kisses. I'm simply suggesting that, in a casual place like AWP, you should save criticism for people who are looking for it.

But, to return your snark, you'd rather insult people for not taking a year and a half to paint a starter.

[Ikvar]

See, if you're taking months on a model then brava for you. I'm going to assume you're talking showcase models, because if that's what you consider tabletop I'd be amazed if you ever got a game in. You're arguing from a vastly different position and I'm pretty comfortable assuming you're the outlier.

And you can drop the hyperbole. No one is asking for candy coated kisses. I'm simply suggesting that, in a casual place like AWP, you should save criticism for people who are looking for it.

But, to return your snark, you'd rather insult people for not taking a year and a half to paint a starter.

I paint all my models to that standard and within that time frame, but I am not criticising anyone for not doing the same, I am simply pointing out the fact that you cant expect the same results as what I do, if you only use 5hours on a model. Many people who claim they are bad at painting or drawing, simply needs to use more time on their work for better results- they are not bad painters, just way to impatient.

 

Actually that was not what you said, or what I reacted on. This is what you said:

 

"Posting in AWP shouldn't, and isn't, the place for that."

 

That is basically telling everyone to STFU unless you want to praise the miniature, and that was what I reacted on.

 

And the last line really puzzles me... do you actually consider polite and  constructive criticism as an insult?

- when have I insulted anyone for not painting a miniature for "a year and a half"?

[Math Mathonwy]

As a side note, some people do this in two hours:

This is Jinn's idea of tabletop quality 

[Ikvar]

Well the huge amount of time I spend on my models pretty much reflects how new I still am in this hobby, I make so many mistakes, and paint everything on my models multiple times for it to work. I hope and expect the time I use on the models to go down a bit the longer I paint

[dgraz]

As a side note, some people do this in two hours:

This is Jinn's idea of tabletop quality 

How the hell............?

[Math Mathonwy]

How the hell............?

Here's a link to the tutorial (it's about painting dark skin and by far the best tutorial on the subject I've seen):

http://jinn.fr/tutoriaux-peinture-figurines/peau-bamaka-en-tabletop/

Oh, and in French, so this might be a better link:

https://translate.google.fi/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fjinn.fr%2Ftutoriaux-peinture-figurines%2Fpeau-bamaka-en-tabletop%2F&edit-text=&act=url

[Fog]

I think you're vastly oversimplifying. I could take a week on one model (and I have), but I don't have the skill to get to the next level. That extra twenty hours of work? It's wasted when there is no big difference. I watch tutorials, I study techniques, and I practice. I'm just so naturally untalented that I'm almost catching up to people who started a month ago.

Now, i do say, and stand by, AWP isn't the place to give unsolicited advice. If people want criticism they'll ask for it. If they just want to share their accomplishment, let it be.

[SpectreEliteGaming]

I admit to having a problem - I can't not do the best that I can do and be happy with it. I have sped up my painting considerably by adopting zenithal priming and utilizing creative washes and glazes - for a lot of the plastics - this is almost mandatory because the detail is not very defined.

Even so, zenithal painting is not good enough and I still find myself adding layers and highlights and (especially) effects like battle damage or cuts etc.

For example, once upon a time I screwed myself hard by layering handpainting fur and woodgrain hair at a time and grain at a time - the effect is so good and I'm so pleased with it I can't not do it However, I suck at skin so I do the Zenithal+highlight and it looks good and I am happy with it.

Even with Zenithal priming/painting I cap about 2-3hr prep and 10-20hrs painting per model and I would consider myself moderately fast. If I am utilizing only my "perfected recipes" for things like hair, skin, metal and stone I can bang a model out every 5-10hrs though.

I've spoiled my eyes and table top is just not good enough (I do "premium table top" - not quite award winning ).

Even so - if that only took 2hrs that is godmode - though i'd need to see it to believe it

[sigmar3]

I must say, Fog, I'm now intrigued to see some pictures of what you've painted lol. Although you say you are an untalented artist/painter I bet you are improving, even if it's slowly. You shouldn't be terrified to post pics, even work in progress ones, a lot of the painters here could maybe see something that could help you. But I can agree that specifying whether you want critique and advice should set the tone for a blog/thread.

One thing you could do (and this is advice for everyone because I'm generous like that) to kind of herd people into helping, is to ask a specific question like 'on this figure how could I improve the nmm?' It kind of suggests you want help improving but not a free for all on the model posted. If that makes sense.

I think we must remember that the vast majority of painting fotums, especially on these Wyrd forums, are actually filled with really friendly, helpful people (unless everyone's seeing things I'm not ha!). Oh and everyone go post advice on my wip. I can take it.

[Ikvar]

I think you're vastly oversimplifying. I could take a week on one model (and I have), but I don't have the skill to get to the next level. That extra twenty hours of work? It's wasted when there is no big difference. I watch tutorials, I study techniques, and I practice. I'm just so naturally untalented that I'm almost catching up to people who started a month ago.

Now, i do say, and stand by, AWP isn't the place to give unsolicited advice. If people want criticism they'll ask for it. If they just want to share their accomplishment, let it be.

 

And I think it is amazing how much you want to convince me that you suck, and that there are no hope for you...

In any case, seeing as most people I have been meeting on AWP are like you, I think I will just delete the page on FB and leave you guys alone.