ierthling Posted November 9, 2014 Report Share Posted November 9, 2014 I'm wondering what people are achieving with the Union Miners' False Claim ability. They can't do it while engaged, so there's no advantage there. For something like Plant Explosives or Spring the Trap, the opponent still only has to pick one of them up for both to be discarded before scoring. I see the basic advantage of placing a marker at a 3" range, but otherwise the only real advantage I see is from other models that discard scheme markers for certain effects. Obviously Collette and co. do a lot of this, but otherwise I only see a couple of times it would help: Willie with Set Charge; the Large Arachnid with Temporary Limb (though it can only do this with one marker); Cojo with Mark Territory (he could benefit from both markers, but what's the list with Union Miners and Cojo in it?). What am I missing about this? I get the value of tossing a marker 3", but it seems to me the advantage of tossing two, one of which disappears at the end of the turn, is limited to a couple of very rare situations outside of a Collette crew. Is there something I'm just not getting here? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Godlyness Posted November 9, 2014 Report Share Posted November 9, 2014 Line in the sand. Protect territory break though. Being able to place marker not in base is amazing. Plant explosives. Etc. You can throw markers into a cluster of enemies and have the waste ap getting rid of them. Can just toss them around cause your playing the guessing game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ierthling Posted November 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2014 Yeah - I get the huge advantage of being able to toss the scheme marker, I just haven't figured out when it would be that useful to toss two, when at least one gets discarded at the end of the turn, meaning your opponent only has to pick up one to get rid of both. Is there something about the order at the end of the turn I'm not getting - ie, you could count two markers for something like plant explosives, before you have to discard the "at least one"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancater Posted November 10, 2014 Report Share Posted November 10, 2014 It is a small bonus skill on a 5SS model so massive utility is not I suppose to be expected. First the ability to place markers 3" away and not BtB is very useful. Second it may be possible to place markers in such a fashion as to not clearly demonstrate what exactly the marker is for (thus disguising undeclared schemes) or in such a way as to score different schems/strats depending on which is removed forcing opponents to make decisions and granting a small amount of flexibility if done early in a turn. Third model interactions (that I can think of): Molemen can move using scheme markers Cojo gain benefits from scheme markers Collette and her crew love any scheme markers Willie can gain some benefit Soulstone Miner can move to scheme markers on an attack trigger Large Arachnid can use scheme markers Fourth certain spells and abilities (eg Ice Pillers) allow placement at 1" away from other models and markers (regardless of friendly/unfriendly) so potentially placing extra temporary markers could restrict these types of spells and attacks and the placements of certain things. As I said it is an action on a 5SS model so it pretty situational but there seems to be a few options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brdparker Posted November 10, 2014 Report Share Posted November 10, 2014 I had an alpha strike idea with Angelica and a bunch of Union Miner-generated scheme markers. And auto-trigger on her cane strike says to push the target (doesn't say enemy) 3" + 1" for each scheme marker w/i 5" in any direction (doesn't have a maximum). So Angelica starts 6" up. The target (we'll say Ironsides as a prime example) double walks to the edge of charge range of Angelica (and maybe drops a SM). Miners lay markers all over the place. Maybe some Molemen join in (bamf to a SM, walk and place another). Let's say you've got 6 SM's in significant play (that really doesn't seem unreasonable). Angelica then charges the catapult target (gaining her some ground), does 1 damage and pushes it 9" (almost 2 Wk's extra)... best part is that's toward the end of the turn, so Ironside's not going to be particularly vulnerable, and can certainly survive a failed initiative. Then all hell breaks loose on the the opponent's vanguard. Haven't had the chance to try it out, but it sounds fun. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorbad Posted November 10, 2014 Report Share Posted November 10, 2014 I would think you got more mileage out using Angelica's push action. Not quite as far (and non-master only?) but you could move two models 6" and not have most of your crew spend the turn setting the whole thing up. If you really wanted to move a master then just push/walk a performer forward and then Siren's Call the master further up. Just seems like a more efficient use of resources as it requires fewer models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterDisaster Posted November 10, 2014 Report Share Posted November 10, 2014 Kaeris with Wings of Fire and Union Miners is immense. Set them of fire to give them Flight, once they've moved they drop a marker then use False Claim for 2 more. That's 3 markers and full points for Plant Explosives straight off the bat! They are great minions for scheme marker based shenanigans, especially because they can do it from 3" away. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ierthling Posted November 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2014 Ok, so the way you guys are describing this is making me think I've misunderstood the order of what happens at the end of the turn. Do you get to score off BOTH False Claim markers before you have to pick up either one? Because if that's the case, I totally get it - somehow I was thinking if you were doing, say, Plant Explosives, you would have to do the "pick up one if at least one remains" thing first, then score on whatever was left; but you're saying you get to score off both markers, THEN remove? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengt Posted November 10, 2014 Report Share Posted November 10, 2014 Upkeep is before scoring, so you can't use both, p 35. Also, plant explosive is how many enemies are near your scheme markers, not how many scheme markers you have near enemies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ierthling Posted November 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2014 Thanks, Bengt - that's what I thought, which is why I'm confused about what the advantage is of tossing out two markers but picking up one before scoring. Seems to me like the enemy only has to pick up one marker to prevent you from getting points from either one, which is the same as if there had only been one marker to begin with. So there's no real point in "tricking" them, because they can pick up either one and prevent both from scoring. So at this point, I'm seeing how being able to throw a scheme marker 3" is a big advantage, but I'm only seeing the "throw two, pick up one if any remain" part as being useful with other models that get advantages from picking up scheme markers. Sound about right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengt Posted November 10, 2014 Report Share Posted November 10, 2014 If you place them in different directions your opponent wont know which one will still be there at the end of the turn, which can be important for some schemes. Edit: Also the fact that it's not an Interact action lets you place them within 4" of other scheme markers which is really good for some schemes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterDisaster Posted November 10, 2014 Report Share Posted November 10, 2014 Upkeep is before scoring, so you can't use both, p 35. Also, plant explosive is how many enemies are near your scheme markers, not how many scheme markers you have near enemies. If you place them in different directions your opponent wont know which one will still be there at the end of the turn, which can be important for some schemes. Exactly why the Union Miners work so well with Kaeris. Drop 1 after flight then plant 2 others with False Claim. Pick which one to remove bearing in mind you can put them in fairly beneficial places to begin with and you can often bag a nice easy 3 VP with Spring the Trap / Plant Explosives etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengt Posted November 10, 2014 Report Share Posted November 10, 2014 I hadn't really thought about them before (since they aren't out in plastic) but Union Miners seems really good for certain scheme pools and/or crews. Not a must have for every game, but really something you should have in your arcanist toolbox. Please Wyrd, make the models pretty and without odd scaling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted November 10, 2014 Report Share Posted November 10, 2014 You are right in that there is little advantage to throwing 2 rather than 1, unless you have a crew that is supposed to make use of scheme markers. Think of that as a small bonus, for a few models, as mentioned elsewhere in the thread, the true power is the non interact placement of scheme markers. They are one of a very small number of models that can protect 2 new markers on their own in 1 turn, and can single handedly do a Line in the sand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decker_cky Posted November 11, 2014 Report Share Posted November 11, 2014 The two markers opens deception (eg, the FALSE claim) regarding your schemes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ierthling Posted November 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2014 Sure - but the opponent doesn't actually care which one you're planning to score off, right? Because if they pick up either one, you're forced to pick the other one up at the end of the turn... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted November 11, 2014 Report Share Posted November 11, 2014 One of the few advantages to placing 2 scheme markers, is that its much harder for them to stop abilities of yours that discard scheme markers. So whilst by the end of the turn there is no advantage to it being 2 markers, there can be situations during the turn that give you an advantage to having multiple. If you're not using models that can take advantage of it, then there is not much advantage to placing two. And if you can make them spend a turn trying to stop 1 scheme that you're not doing, then its still pretty strong. ( By which I mean they use their models to stop the rest of your crew being able to do the required interact. ) And finally, there was quiet a while during the avatar test that discarding scheme markers was one of the ways of manifesting. This may well change, but it would be an arcanist wide use for the Miner. Just make sure Ulix can never hire them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rover1013 Posted November 11, 2014 Report Share Posted November 11, 2014 I didn't see it mentioned yet, but the biggest advantage I've found using them for scheme markers (outside of the tossing 3" which is great) is that they ignore the within 4" restriction as well. Makes it much easier to pile markers in convenient locations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decker_cky Posted November 11, 2014 Report Share Posted November 11, 2014 Sure - but the opponent doesn't actually care which one you're planning to score off, right? Because if they pick up either one, you're forced to pick the other one up at the end of the turn... You can use the deception to hide which schemes you actually took. If your opponent is reacting to 3-4 different potential schemes, it's a lot harder than reacting to only 2. Takes some planning on your part, but particularly turn 2-3, you can confuse how your opponent reacts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadeton Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 Generally speaking, I've found it very easy to stop my opponent interacting with Scheme markers, assuming they don't have a model with Don't Mind Me nearby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grantt Posted November 23, 2014 Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 I can't quite understand why the skill is being questioned. It's immensely useful in many different ways. It; Allows you to stack multiple markers in close proximity (useful for Willie, plant explosives, etc) Allows you to place loads of scheme markers for shenanigans (showgirls, Willie, LSA) Adds layers of deception to your plans (psychological mind games) Costs an opponent 1ap to get rid of one (kind of like inflicting slow on a model) Can you imagine setting up two Union minors to fly in with Kaeris (using WoF) then running Willie in to box them in with Set Charge? Yeah, it'll be hard to do, but that one time when you pull it off? Every member of that gaming store/tournament will high five you as you strut out the door. Personally, I love it; it presents me with more choices as to how to spend my AP and makes my actions much less predictable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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