Is there a "best" master for each strategy?

[Joel]

Hi guys,

 

I've been debating this question like a dog worrying a bone - is there a "best master" for each of the 5 main strategies in Malifaux.

 

I'm still not sure where I come down on it, but I was hoping to get your views.

 

discuss.

[Math Mathonwy]

I think that there is a best Master for each Strategy/Scheme pool/terrain combination. I think that Strategy, when considered alone, does not have a single best Master - not necessarily even a group of best Masters.

[Myyrä]

I think that there is a best Master for each Strategy/Scheme pool/terrain combination. I think that Strategy, when considered alone, does not have a single best Master - not necessarily even a group of best Masters.

You forgot opponent's faction. That also has quite large an impact on expected effectiveness of a master.

[Math Mathonwy]

You forgot opponent's faction. That also has quite large an impact on expected effectiveness of a master.

Aye, I actually originally had it in the list but deleted it, since I couldn't think of a good example of a situation where opposing Faction would impact my Master choice against an "ideal" opponent with access to the whole of their faction. If they have a more limited pool of Masters available, then it of course can have a big impact. But do you have any examples of Masters that you wouldn't take (or would prefer) against a specific Faction?

[Myyrä]

One should keep in mind that opponents faction is only part of the master choice.

Ressers have a lot models with Hard to Kill or similiar rules. That means that getting blasts off is somewhat more difficult against them than many others. That would make for example Sonnia a weaker choice than she is normally. On the other hand they have very few ranged abilities and have very few abilities that help them mitigate high weak damage. That makes Lady Justice a good choice against them. (Removing corpse markers helps too.) Of course none of this exactly applies spirit models.

Many factions have some abilities that are much more common inside that faction. Thus it is often a good idea to bring something that can deal with those abilities well. It doesn't have to be your master, but it can be, or it can be something else. Of course you shouldn't really forget that there are also "outliers" within each faction and you should be prepared to face them too.

[Insidiously Mad]

I do think there are Masters that are better at certain strategies. Summoners in Reconnoitre being the most obvious. Also Lucius in Squatter's Rights. The ability to give all minions within 6' the ability to interact in combat is amazing in that scenario. So I would say yes there are better masters, not sure if there is a BEST master though. But there may be.

[Adran]

No I don't think there is an outright Best master for each game.

I think there are too many variables to be able to do it, especially since each master will play it slightly differently.

There is also the possibility of your opponent having a direct counter to your list.

 

For example it might be that the Best Turf war list involves Zoraida and lots of movement tricks to force the enemty out of the turf area. Fuhatso and Ototo will ruin that plan completley. The list might be best against 60% of the other things out there, but there will still be times that it will be worst.

I know thats meta related, but the best you could ever get would be that a certain master/list combbination is best in ceratin circumstances.

[Joel]

Let's refine the discussion then

Assuming your crew I'd built to get your schemes done and to gain you 6 points from them. And that you are picking a master, master specific upgrades (and totem) to deal with getting those 4 strategy points, which master is best for each strategy?

With this caveat, I think we could make some distinctions.

Reckoning:

Lucius - probably not, he doesn't go killing models himself.

Zoraida - see above

Lynch - distinct possibility with wanna see a trick and final debt, but killing 2/turn...maybe with

Lilith- better at killing 1/turn than 2

Collodi - not really a damaged in himself.

Dreamer - with chompy he can hit hard, but again, not 2 models/turn

Pandora - now we're talking!

Could similar be done for the other strats?

[Adran]

Thats still a bit tricky to really answer. Some masters just don't work that way.

 

Lucius in a crew with 2 or 3 illuminated could possibly get 2 kills during his activation.

 

And do you include the summoned models from the dreamer in the models you are using to do the killing? Stiched Together spring to mind as a dreamer summons that would do very well at killing 2 models a turn (especially as you could easily have 4  of them in place by turn 2 ready to gamble themselves and everything else to death, its not hard to have 10 gambles on turn 2 (probably hoping you lose 4 to save anything else having to trigger re-activate) just based on the Dreamers AP and not the original crew.

[TehMik]

There are certainly masters better at strategies when comparing within a single faction. Across factions I think it more or less evens out.

[Dryzen]

The only one I will take 90% of the time just by seeing the strategy is Lucius in Squatters Rights. Mainly because in his 3VP he can easily claim 2s squat markers, even if the closest model to that marker is engaged.

Use Guild Intelligence to let minions within 6 interact while engaged

Use Issue Command on a minion to flip a squat marker (if you have a tome, claim a marker and another action)

Then you can either Issue Command on another target, or claim one yourself if you are in position to do so.

[Tuttleboy]

This is a good question. I think that in your example Joel Lynch is a solid choice for Reckoning. His crew works to kill one thing and move another model to Lynch to kill when he activates last. This also makes his crew a solid choice for Turf War and possibly Reconnoiter, but not so much for Squatter's Rights or Stake a Claim.

 

Bottom line for me is that I tend to think  each master is good at 2-4 Strategies and weaker at the others. To me this is why M2E is so much better than 1.5. In 1.5 there were some masters that did everything well and others that didn't do anything worth shit.

[Patzer]

There seem to be two different questions asked her. One referring to the best in faction, and another referring to the best in the game overall.

 

I personally believe that every master can do every scheme very well. Such thing as a perfect list or just "no argument top tier" at a strategy doesn't exist. There are just too many components coming into play. For instance, if you can summon significant minions like crazy it will give you an advantage, but then Make them Suffer comes along, or the board mitigate the effectiveness of you summons etc.

Just for fun though. Lets ponder that owned every model in the game, knew all them pretty well, and attended an open faction tournament where I wanted to "power game". What would I bring for all the different strategies?

 

Reconnoiter. Ramos, Nicodem, or Somer.

Reckoning. Viktorias, or possibly Pandora.

Turf War. Ramos, Nicodem, or Von Schill.

Squatter's Rights. Lucius, McCabe, Somer, or Nicodem.

Stake a Claim. Pandora, Hoffman, or Marcus.

[Nical]

"Best" master for "some strategy" can be completed by his/her crew.

Each master is good at some strategies, but he/she is poor at other strategies.

And truly, they are not best for "their good strategies", just as good or better than other masters.

So they need combination with other models to be "best" for some strategy.

Additionally, we need to think about schemes & terrains for victory. 

 

So I think there is only a "best crew" for "each game".

[Myyrä]

"Best" master for "some strategy" can be completed by his/her crew.

Each master is good at some strategies, but he/she is poor at other strategies.

And truly, they are not best for "their good strategies", just as good or better than other masters.

So they need combination with other models to be "best" for some strategy.

Additionally, we need to think about schemes & terrains for victory. 

 

So I think there is only a "best crew" for "each game".

This is what I was trying to say too. Best master only exists as a part of the best crew.

[Math Mathonwy]

Let's refine the discussion then

Assuming your crew I'd built to get your schemes done and to gain you 6 points from them. And that you are picking a master, master specific upgrades (and totem) to deal with getting those 4 strategy points, which master is best for each strategy?

With this caveat, I think we could make some distinctions.

Reckoning:

Lucius - probably not, he doesn't go killing models himself.

Zoraida - see above

Lynch - distinct possibility with wanna see a trick and final debt, but killing 2/turn...maybe with

Lilith- better at killing 1/turn than 2

Collodi - not really a damaged in himself.

Dreamer - with chompy he can hit hard, but again, not 2 models/turn

Pandora - now we're talking!

Could similar be done for the other strats?

I think that it is weird to think that the Master takes care of the Strategy while the crew takes care of the Schemes. There's lots of Masters who make certain Schemes trivial and certain other Schemes nearly impossible for the opponent.

In my latest game, McMourning made Plant Explosives utterly trivial and also made Deliver a Message almost impossible for the opponent due to the Plastic Surgery end-of-round push. And since the rest of the Scheme Pool was tricky (Distract in Reckoning - no thanks!) he really limited my opponent's Scheme selection.

Similarly, the Strategy affects crew selections tremendously. For example, Depleted are super good for Reconnoiter but they can't really contribute much to most Schemes. The same is true of, e.g., Night Terrors.

In this specific example of Reckoning you discount Zoraida since she isn't very killy. This is true but OTOH for Reckoning you will go for an elite crew and Zoraida's Obey is especially useful with an elite crew. Eternal Bad Juju is also really nice in Reckoning since he won't give out points for it and your opponent is trying to kill your Swampfiends so he will have plenty of opportunities to come back. Finally, Voodoo Doll is super lethal but in an easily controllable way so you can easily strive for the Reckoning points with it.

So, long story short, I actually think that Zoraida is a good choice for Reckoning as long as your crew has good damage dealers.

[Myyrä]

You win the game by getting more points than your opponent. In reckoning it's at least as important to deny points for your opponent as it is to score them. Not all killy masters are equally good at that.

[Adran]

I don't think Joel is entirly saying that you pick your master to do the Strategy and your crew to do the schemes, just trying to remove some of the variables from the question. (under this assumption you can pretend to be able to ignore the different scheme pools and therefore what you crew is, and so just pick which master is best for each Strategy). Unfortuantly the assumption is slightly flawed (in my opinion) in the case of support masters, as it is very hard to outright rate the support master without knowing the crew.  Zoraida transfering an AP (via Obey) to a Bayou Gremlin is much less effective than to a Mature Nephlim, but has cost the player exactly the same. Where as a support master giving all models +1 damage probably has more effect on 3 gremlins than 1 Mature

[Math Mathonwy]

I don't think Joel is entirly saying that you pick your master to do the Strategy and your crew to do the schemes, just trying to remove some of the variables from the question.

Oh aye, I probably could've been clearer in my reply in that I do realize that this is a thought experiment and Joel doesn't actually play that way.

(under this assumption you can pretend to be able to ignore the different scheme pools and therefore what you crew is, and so just pick which master is best for each Strategy). Unfortuantly the assumption is slightly flawed (in my opinion) in the case of support masters, as it is very hard to outright rate the support master without knowing the crew.  Zoraida transfering an AP (via Obey) to a Bayou Gremlin is much less effective than to a Mature Nephlim, but has cost the player exactly the same. Where as a support master giving all models +1 damage probably has more effect on 3 gremlins than 1 Mature

We are in agreement.

I was trying to say that even as a thought experiment it isn't very enlightening since actual conclusions for real gaming situations are very difficult to draw from it.