Leave it to Luck and low Tomes / high Masks

[Matney X]

Last night, during a game, we ran into a problem...  Tannen had cast Leave it to Luck, followed by Kang flipping a 2 of Tomes for damage.  Because of LITL, the 2 of Tomes is effectively the 0 of Tomes.

The problem is that there isn't a damage rule for card values less than 1 or greater than 13 (a 12 of Masks would have been a 14), and 0 damage is only listed under the Black Joker, specifically.

 

We ruled that the 0 was Weak, because 0 damage is only specific to the Black Joker, which this wasn't.

 

So, is the 0 of Tomes 0 damage, or Weak damage?  Is the 14 of Masks Severe damage, or Severe+Weak?
 

[Mister Shine]

I'd say weak and severe respectively for the two situations. Jokers have a value of 14, but thats not what gives them their special traits. Of course thats just opinion

[Hateful Darkblack]

I'd say this requires errata. I was hoping that LITL wouldn't affect damage flips, but it totally does.

I believe if this happens, save your data and hit control alt delete.

[Matney X]

It's too bad we can't just link the AWP thread -- we're at somewhere between 20 and 30 posts about this -- to show how confusing the rule is.  Three replies in the Rules thread doesn't do it justice.

[MasterDisaster]

It does offer viable arguments on lots of different fronts. I use the classic fate decks which have Weak, Moderate and Severe printed on them and seeing as the numerical value isn't really all that important when determining damage I'd just stick with what is printed on my cards under these circumstances. Personally I'd consider it weak Damage but this definitely needs to be brought up on the next FAQ / Errata

[Stupid Bob]

One might make an argument that card's values are clamped at a minimum of 1 and a maximum of 13 based on the rule that defines cards. An Ace with a -2 does not go below 1, as 1 is the minimum value.

 

(Note that Jokers have a seperate rule to define their value).

 

This would, of course, prevent Teddy summoning as well.

 

I am not in favor of this interpretation, but that is the only rule I see that describes values of cards. (And frankly, I'm not in favor of that interpretation because I LOVE to summon some Teddy cuddling!!)

 

<edit> Beating this up some more, the rules for Values of Cards say:

Value

The value of a card ranges from 1 to 13. A card’s value

is often added to a model’s Stat when determining the

results of a flip to resolve Actions. When

the rules refer specifically to a Fate Deck card's value

they are referring to the printed number on the Fate

Deck card.

 

 

The only rules for Modifiers specify modifiers to a Stat or a Duel Total:

 

Stat Modifiers

These are the simplest way to modify a Duel or flip.

Stat modifiers are presented as a bonus or penalty

to a Stat under certain conditions. For instance, a

model might gain +2 to his Sh on any attack against a

target within 6”. In these cases, the Sh of the model

is increased accordingly, but only for the purposes of

resolving the Duel.

Alternatively, the model might receive a bonus to the

total, rather than the Stat. In these cases, simply add the

bonus to the total whenever it is calculated

 

 

Then a bit more, under the Math callout box:

 

Minimum Values

All stats, other than Wounds, have a minimum

value of 1, regardless of how many modifiers

are applied to the stat. Models with a value of

"—" in a Stat do not have the noted Stat, and it

may not be modified.

 

 

While none of the above really directly apply (would be great if this were covered in errata/faq), this is just stuff that I found almost kinda-sorta applied: food for thought, if you will.

[Bengt]

It does offer viable arguments on lots of different fronts. I use the classic fate decks which have Weak, Moderate and Severe printed on them and seeing as the numerical value isn't really all that important when determining damage I'd just stick with what is printed on my cards under these circumstances. Personally I'd consider it weak Damage but this definitely needs to be brought up on the next FAQ / Errata

Do you not allow him to change between levels, e.g. 6  becoming Weak damage?

[MasterDisaster]

Do you not allow him to change between levels, e.g. 6  becoming Weak damage?

 

To be honest that particular scenario has never really come up as I rarely use the action to begin with. I guess in those circumstances where the numerical value of the card is dropped to an already established category then yeah it would make sense to demote the moderate to a weak but when you are looking at an Ace or 2 becoming effectively 0 or -1 it seems simpler to just say yeah... "Weak. Lets get on with our game" rather than rule lawyering the hell out of it. 

[rgarbonzo]

Yes but this can become particularly troublesome when in multiple LITL auras.

[MasterDisaster]

Yes but this can become particularly troublesome when in multiple LITL auras.

 

Who else other than Tannen has Leave it to Luck? I know there are other models who might be able copy actions but most can't copy a (0). Hannah can't unless you're Freikorps and if memory serves the Doppelganger can only copy (1) Actions. 

[Adran]

Lightening bugs

[Matney X]

In that instance -- Lightning bugs, Doppelgangers, etc (or a mirror match, each consisting of Tannen and a Doppelganger) -- does LITL stack? Because that mirror match opens up +/- 8, and the Dreamer summoning a Teddy becomes A LOT easier to pull off (even in a single crew, that's a Teddy on an 11 or 12).

[Hateful Darkblack]

I'm pretty sure they do stack, yes.

 

So, yeah, big hilarity there! What does a 21 mean on a damage flip? Severe, Red Joker, or no damage at all since it's not on the chart?

[Myyrä]

It does stack, but it's near impossible for Dreamer to benefit from it, because he only has access to Tannen. (Doppelganger can't copy (0) actions.)

[rgarbonzo]

You can conceivably set up an area where get +14 and -14

[Matney X]

It does stack, but it's near impossible for Dreamer to benefit from it, because he only has access to Tannen. (Doppelganger can't copy (0) actions.)

 

Thanks for the clarification on that -- I didn't have my book handy, and the only have Tannen because he's 10T.

[Matney X]

You can conceivably set up an area where get +14 and -14

+/- 14?  At 5 SS each, you can hire 10 Lightning Bugs in a 50 SS game.  I don't know WHY you'd do it, except for +/- 20 is insane.

(I don't have my book or cards on me, so my pricing / rare limit could be off)

[Myyrä]

+/- 14?  At 5 SS each, you can hire 10 Lightning Bugs in a 50 SS game.  I don't know WHY you'd do it, except for +/- 20 is insane.

(I don't have my book or cards on me, so my pricing / rare limit could be off)

You got the price and the rarity right, but forgot that there can be lightning bugs on both sides! +/-40 sounds even more insane.

[rgarbonzo]

This begs another question as well, does spending a stone for a suit count for LITL as well? I.E. spend stone for and flip a 10 this becomes 10 and would benefit, correct?

[The Godlyness]

This begs another question as well, does spending a stone for a suit count for LITL as well? I.E. spend stone for and flip a 10 this becomes 10 and would benefit, correct?

No the card flipped is a 10ram. Not a 10mask. The stone spent is added to the duel total but is not the card that is flipped.

[Matney X]

That is a great question.  What if it's    ?  Just break even?

[Durza]

I don't think burning stones counts, as it's adding a suit to the duel total, not the card.

[Bengt]

I don't think burning stones counts, as it's adding a suit to the duel total, not the card.

Yeah, LitL says "...cards which they flip or play as having +2 value..." and so on. So it modifies the card, not the duel total.

[zFiend]

Spending a stone doesn't count.

It's not in the card but in the duel total.

[Matney X]

Phew, at least that's clear.

[rgarbonzo]

still no indication on what effect, if any, LITL has on the damage flip though.