A NewOutcast Crew

[turtleclub13]

Alright, I have been playing a long time with Mali and am still a noob. I love everything about the game and am a huge fan of fluff. That said I would love to see an outcast faction of like, Native Americans of the high plains. Maybe a chief or something. I feel there is some cool mechanic that could fit a all native american faction. Maybe have a spiritwalker henchman, or a bison themed brute. A tomahawk slinging warchief. Mounted braves. I think there is something there. What do you guys think?

[Ausplosions]

I think it's been done to death by other companies and isn't required in Malifaux. Seems pretty stereotypical...

[Dirial]

I agree with Aus. Fluff reason: the natives of Malifaux are the Neverborn. Why would there be Native Americans running around? Crunch reason: We already have 6,5 factions. I don't see the need to add another one at the moment.

 

If you are looking for kick-ass Native Americans, WWE might be a game to look at. You could even proxy a Viktorias crew with some WWE models, or something, to get some tomahawk action into Malifaux.

[zFiend]

There is always the good ol' Injun Joss.

[NIGHTHATER]

Turtleclub13,

 

I like the idea actually. They wouldn't be natives to Malifaux they would probably be someone else who got passed through the breach. Maybe they got there before all the others, except the Neverborn and have just been silently surviving. They would be Outcasts probably without the Mercenery trait. I have a great respect for the Indian culture though so I'd like to see Indians in the game. They could have chiefs, shamens, braves, bisons, animal spirits, ghosts ancestors, and get JOSS . Ya it's kind of stereotypical, but everythings been done by now it's 2014.

 

Nighthater

[AverageBoss]

I think rather than the Native Americans themselves, it would be more appropriate for Malifaux to go with some of the various creatures and spirits from the lore of various Native American tribes.

 

Some ideas could include the Lakota tribes Darkman, the Choctaw tribes Impa Shilup and Kowi anukasha. You would have skin walkers, obviously a type of mimic, as well as sprites for more generic creatures.

[SpiralngCadavr]

Yeah, Neverborn struck me as the analogous natives of Malifaux's second wild west, and I'm not sure what sort of greater theme would work there. However, I like Averageboss's idea, and definitely think that there's a fair amount of fodder in the neverborn done in a native american theme if you wanted to do that with your crew(s), with conversions and/or proxies.

[Rathnard]

I think using the WWX Warrior Nation models as proxies for a Malifaux crew would be the way to go. 

[Hateful Darkblack]

I think it's definitely interesting to explore the intersection of different oppressed groups: how two colonized people would interact with each other, how they're similar and differfent, etc. But I think it also requires a lot of discussion of Earthside politics to explore that, and Malifaux intentionally shies away from discussing the Earthside world too much, because it's not the focus of the game.

 

I love Injun Joss. I think one of the most common racist tropes about Native Americans is that they are people of the past: obsolete mystics who serve no function except to teach white people about their hearts. (Obviously, this is untrue: there are plenty of Native Americans today doing modern things and working for good lives for themselves.) Joss turns that on its head: he's a very modern character, laden with cybernetics, who isn't interested in teaching you any lesson except what it feels like to get smashed for messing with the M&SU. He's one of my favorite characters because of this.

 

However: I don't think there has ever been a time when Wyrd has responded to requests for new Crews, or new Crew ideas. It's fun to come up with them, but the best way I've seen to roll out your own original ideas is to run story encounter tournaments that include the models you want to create. Wyrd has their own ideas for what they want to create next; so far they haven't often responded to outside suggestions.

 

Otherwise, you could also, definitely, create a proxy crew and run that. A Viktorias Crew with First Nation proxies would be badass, and you could easily rechrome Killjoy as a magical Bison.

[Rwwin]

I could see it being done without being stereotypical or a re-hash.  How about this.  One of the tribes native to the Louisiana/Mississippi area of the US (Choctaw, Tunica or Chitimacha) strike a deal with the guild earth-side.  They trade trade their services to the guild for the return of their ancestral lands.  From what I've read in the new book, there really isn't an indipendant American government after the powder wars.  The tribe sends their younger members through the breach to help the guild get a foot hold in the swamps.  Of course like everyone else, the warriors  start to follow thier own agenda as soon as their turned loose.

 

I don't know what could make the crew unique in terms of mechanics but it could certainly be done in a unique and tasteful way.

[Ausplosions]

I could see it being done without being stereotypical or a re-hash. How about this. One of the tribes native to the Louisiana/Mississippi area of the US (Choctaw, Tunica or Chitimacha) strike a deal with the guild earth-side. They trade trade their services to the guild for the return of their ancestral lands. From what I've read in the new book, there really isn't an indipendant American government after the powder wars. The tribe sends their younger members through the breach to help the guild get a foot hold in the swamps. Of course like everyone else, the warriors start to follow thier own agenda as soon as their turned loose.

I don't know what could make the crew unique in terms of mechanics but it could certainly be done in a unique and tasteful way.

So. Ten thunders but Native American? As I said, no thanks.

[Rwwin]

Sorry, but I don't see them as the same concept at all.  10 thunders are a criminal gang from a country completely uncontrolled by the guild who came to Malifaux to exploit it.

[Hateful Darkblack]

That sounds totally doable! Why not make it a Through The Breach campaign?

[NIGHTHATER]

I still think it's a great new crew idea for the Outcasts or a whole new fraction, but most likely Outcasts. Where as the Guild, Ressers, and the Arcanists are unaware of the Indians the Neverborn and Gremlins have had fights with them. The Few Ten Thunders that know of them are trying to approach them as an "ace in the whole" if they need em. Maybe a few Outcasts know of them, maybe they don't, there not talking.

 

As for the Indians take on it, well all they have incountered in this strange new world are enemies so there keeping a low profile.

 

Anyway I'm all in with the indian idea, too bad the'll be 2.0 only .

 

Nighthater

[Rwwin]

Why not make it a Through The Breach campaign?

 

Oh man, if I had time for RPG's in my life Through the Breach would be it, but alas with three kids and two working parents, my RPG days are far in the past.

[turtleclub13]

I don't want another faction, but I like the idea of a down an out under-dog native american team getting a resservation in malifaux and making the best of it. Not criminals, but survivors. Could be some colourful potential there. I like the proxy idea and will check it out First Nation stuff. And yes, oh yes, I am going to add this to my through the breach campaign.

[Jimbobovalsocks]

I don't like the concept very much. I always feel uncomfortable making light of native people's cultures given the history of genocide against these peoples. Steer well clear is my opinion.

[turtleclub13]

OOH. I could do a Marcus crew painted up as Native AMericans. The skinshifters, the bison, and Joss. Could be cool.

[Grim]

Happy Columbus Day (indeed)!

[Hateful Darkblack]

I don't like the concept very much. I always feel uncomfortable making light of native people's cultures given the history of genocide against these peoples. Steer well clear is my opinion.

 

Jimbobovalsocks, I agree that it's bad to make light of native people's cultures, but I think inclusion can be great if executed respectfully. It's certainly better than only including white people because you're afraid of getting anything wrong. (Not that I think you're advocating that; I just know it's a possible peril for some people.)

 

I think being informed about what you're talking about helps a lot. Including a Chitimacha nation group (as RWWIN proposed) is a lot more sensitive than including "generic Indians."

 

There's a book I love on this subject, Writing the Other by Nisi Shawl and Cynthia Ward (link in title). It's intended for authors but I found it helped me think more about portrayals of various groups, and I highly recommend it. It's very tangible and practical.

[Mason]

I don't like the concept very much. I always feel uncomfortable making light of native people's cultures given the history of genocide against these peoples. Steer well clear is my opinion.

 

I mostly tend to agree. 

 

While I'm all for seeing more racially diverse characters in the game (especially outside of the Arcanist faction!), and I could get behind pulling some neat creatures in from Native American culture, a crew wearing headdresses and throwing tomahawks around strikes me as being...well, let's just go with a bit too stereotypical. 

 

I think that the mention of Joss is a pretty good one; it's cool that he's a Native American, but it's even cooler that he's doing his own thing and not running around in a 1950s Hollywood Indian costume. 

[Rwwin]

As Darkblack said there are probably ways to import a crew with native American roots without being stereotypical or insensitive.  On the other hand there are many ways of doing it very poorly.  (I would cite the AE WWII skinwalker model as an example).  It sounds like a minefield that Wyrd wouldn't want to wade into unless someone on staff had a real passion for it.

 

As an interesting aside on the topic of cultural sensitivity, I haven't read any complaints about the portrayal of the Ten Thunders which hues closer to '70s Kung Fu movies than any sort of historical accuracy.

[NIGHTHATER]

I mostly tend to agree. 

 

While I'm all for seeing more racially diverse characters in the game (especially outside of the Arcanist faction!), and I could get behind pulling some neat creatures in from Native American culture, a crew wearing headdresses and throwing tomahawks around strikes me as being...well, let's just go with a bit too stereotypical. 

 

I think that the mention of Joss is a pretty good one; it's cool that he's a Native American, but it's even cooler that he's doing his own thing and not running around in a 1950s Hollywood Indian costume. 

 

You guys are really...really...really going overboard on this stereotypical indian thing. Wyrd PROBABLY didn't get arrows or tomahawks launched at them when they brought out "Joss" the "blasphemous" indian using technology. Lets step back into reality for a second and I'll help people understand things. The indians don't care about models in a table top game unless you go way out on a limb and out of your way to disrespect them. The indians possess real lives outside of worrying about their image in a table top game. I'm reading these comments and I can't even understand why people are so caught up on the fact they would even take time out of there lives to care about something so insignificant. Other game companies have used indian models and they haven't been scalped yet. 

 

Dude, are you guys kidding me?

 

 

As Darkblack said there are probably ways to import a crew with native American roots without being stereotypical or insensitive.  On the other hand there are many ways of doing it very poorly.  (I would cite the AE WWII skinwalker model as an example).  It sounds like a minefield that Wyrd wouldn't want to wade into unless someone on staff had a real passion for it.

 

As an interesting aside on the topic of cultural sensitivity, I haven't read any complaints about the portrayal of the Ten Thunders which hues closer to '70s Kung Fu movies than any sort of historical accuracy.

 

Rwwin,

 

Dam you beat me to the punch.

 

Is everyone saying dam the ten-thunders use asian type weapons how stereotypical?

 

Oh ninjas that throw smoke bombs and shurikens how stereotypical?

 

Mei-Feng asian and does martial arts how stereotypical?

 

*Smart Moneys on if indians get/got made and were arrow using, spear and tomahawk throwing, feather and headdresses wearing, scalping, knife weilding, spirit using guys I'd be seeing them in the Miniature Showcase and not talking about them is this "sensative" debate.

 

Nighthater

 

P.S. to prove I'm right you can go talk to asians to see if you can get them to EVEN CARE about the fact they are being "protrayed" as martial artists, ninjas, and samurias, in Malifaux, or movies, or stories, or legends.

 

OR....I can save you the time.....THEY DON'T CARE.

[zFiend]

I think there was a thread about Ten thunders some time back and no matter what you do, you always get the race card played or the sexism card.

And every single time I can't but wonder why? Why are those cards played. It's just a game.

[Dirial]

This doesn't have much to do with the original idea but

 

I think there was a thread about Ten thunders some time back and no matter what you do, you always get the race card played or the sexism card.

And every single time I can't but wonder why? Why are those cards played. It's just a game.

 

I agree and disagree. The "just a game" argument is correct in most situations, but games are a representation of the players (who chose the game) and the developers (who made it). If the game is rude and insensitive, it reflects on the people involved (and the other way round, too).

 

The obsession with sensitivity stems from the fact that it's really hard to assess if something is offensive for someone without being that someone. So, people who care about the opinion of others tend to err on the safe side, which is a good thing in my opinion. Of course, it also tends to go to extreme lengths while the supposedly offended people aren't offended at all. Erring on the safe side, and all.

 

And back to topic: If it's done in a humorous and intelligent way, I am not opposed to Native Americans in Malifaux. I am opposed to a new faction, however, and I don't see them from a fluff perspective, except some individuals.