Price creep

[Shadowdragon]

Just saw the prices for some of the new stuff coming out over the next couple months. $50 for a crew set that only includes 6 minis? $11 for a single doppleganger or malifaux child? How much gold dust have they starting packing with these minis? These prices are ridiculous for metal miniatures, let alone plastic ones.

[edonil]

...how? Those prices are average for the market- unless you're doing Reaper, who really shouldn't be compared to anyone else in prices. PP prices solos and such at $12-15 for metal, GW... we won't go there. I just bought a Kingdom Death model for $25 the size of a Malifaux mini. Studio McVey is similar to KD. This is nothing unusual.

[SpiralngCadavr]

At least with Zoraida's crew, it's 2 sprues instead of 1 so I can see why. I don't know which set you're talking about specifically.

Similarly, $11 has been the minimum for plastic sets regardless of content, I believe since they started releasing them. I think they should have paired smaller models in factions, ex, a malifaux child and another Student of Conflict or Desperate merc or some basing details or something, to more efficiently use the space (call it $16 for 2 minis on a larger sprue), but that's their model. I don't think the plastic kits have seen any serious price increases.

However, I have no idea why the lone marshal was so expensive.

Oh, and the minis are a bit (though not very) expensive for plastic, but I think they're easily worth it for the amount of detail, and the low model count of Malifaux offsets that to a degree.

[Dan34j]

On the Lone Rider one of the Wyrd higher ups mentioned before that they priced those a bit higher as people will only buy 1 since it is a rare 1 model. It's the price of keeping the lights on. But yeah in general I am not too concerned with price creep. If you look back at their blister packs of metal they were in the $10-$15 range for a single model and usually in the $18-$20ish range for a blister with 2-3 models inside.

 

I for one will not complain about the prices as it is a really reasonably priced game to get into compared to most.

[Math Mathonwy]

I think that the Lone Marshall and the Hoarcat Pride are the only real offenders. Some toteams (e.g., Malifaux Child) are rather expensive, too, for their size but they probably aren't any cheaper to produced than man-sized single minis so it kinda is what it is.

[deValmont]

  I think that the main issue is that when people (including me) assess the price of these models they compare the cost of the model to the guessed price of 30g of plastic beads, without counting the cost of the artwork, the design, the CAD software, the moulding process, the shipping, the packaging, the rules development... have I missed anything else out?

 

  Around £6-7 per model (And usually less than that for the crew boxes) you're looking at £50-£70 for enough models to field a strong crew for most strategies. I can't think of many other tabletop game that could offer that. (I don't know much about Infinity but I'd imagine that it is one).

 

  It's a bit of a point of contention for me. There was someone on W**S*** forums a while back bitching that Malifaux is far too expensive to get into and that they should get the same stick as GW for the prices, oblivious to the fact that you need a tenth of the models to play Malifaux, and the models are better, and the rules are better, and the game is BETTER and the PLAYERS ARE BETTER AND...  

  

  .... OK, I think I'll go and have a lie down.

[Soundwave]

I'm on a very limited miniature budget, but this has honestly never been an issue with me. A crew box is a long way towards all that you need in Malifaux (but it never stops there, I know..), as opposed to "This box contains 5 Beastmen Bestigors and costs £25. You need at least 25 for the unit to be effective".

[Math Mathonwy]

To be fair, getting a 50SS crew normally isn't a very good tournament force. You will probably need closer to 100SS worth in order to cater to all Strategies/Scheme combinations. That said, compared to GW or PP Malifaux obviously is a lot cheaper. Compared to Infinity or Eden it isn't but then again you can get tournament worthy forces for all three for the price of one PP tournament double-list force.

[mythicFOX]

As others have said the amount of plastic is only one part of the production cost; design, mould making, production, art, stat card, packaging, rules, business admin, and more stuff I'm sure I can't begin to imagine.  Most of these don't scale with the amount of plastic involved. 

 

I'd say the real calculation we should all be making is not; money in for plastic out, but money in for fun out.  

 

On that basis IMO Malifaux wins every time.

[Csonti]

Price actually depends on one single thing: DEMAND. If enough people buy the minis for this price level, they are doing it right. It is business, not charity show.

[Inquisitor Wall]

The price increases in Malifaux have been pretty standard, and keep their prices in a similar range to other miniature games.  I will happily pay $11.00 for a single model if I am only going to need 1.  Also, the most expensive models in the game are still in the $30.00 range which also keeps the game more affordable.  While Malifaux certainly isn't the cheapest game for individual model to price, it is also not the most expensive one either.  At least there are not any $70.00+ single models/tanks that are needed to make an effective crew.  

[NIGHTHATER]

Shadowdragon,

 

Right on this is an interesting topic and well worth the debate.

 

I FEEL.....overall the costs are reasonable but they need to SERIOUSLY work on the durability of some of the plastic models. I think if your not thinking about rocks or diamonds while fielding Yan Lo crew the skeletons will snap and break. To many of the models are a harsh wind gust away from snapping and breaking for your money.

 

Also I feel they could have given you far more Steam Arachnid Spiders for your money....and there is probably more offenders.

 

Nighthater

[M_Ruckuss]

Let's use this model Malifaux verse a "hypothetical" alternate system- Malifaux vs Gamestore Worldwide, or GW for short.... (!)

 

I budget £50 startup with £25 a month to spend. (give or take a few pounds here or there.) 

 

Malifaux Month 1: A crew box + a rule book. I opt for Lilith. With the deck of playing cards I have at home I will survive one month without the correct cards.

GW month 1: Battalion= £60, Core game = £65. I pick up the core game as thats what I have been told to do by a rep- im now £15 down for next month but have 2 starter armies. 

 

Malifaux Month 2: I fore-go the deck and just pick up the nephilim list- I now have a 40ss List

GW month 2: With my £10 left from overspend theres not much I can buy. I decide to wait a month to pick up a codex and paint some toys.

 

Malifaux Month 3: I finally pick up a fatedeck and a box of waldegeist ive heard are so good. I pocket the change as I want silurid-might as well pick up Zoraida next month

GW month 3: I pick up a codex and have £5 left for next month.#

 

Malifaux Month 4: With my pocket change I buy Zoraida- yay silurids and Juju.

GW Month4: i pick up a second 10 man CS< squad. £5 left over again

 

Malifaux Month 5: I pick up the primordial magic, doppleganger and widow weaver...

GW month 5: I pick up an "APC tank". £5 left over

 

Summary:

Malifaux-Fatedeck, 2 masters, 3 henchmen, 3 totems, 3 silurid, 3 waldegeist, 3 terror tots, 1 mature Neph, 2 young Neph, and a doppleganger, in addition to the rules.

GW: 25 marines, 5 terminators, 1 dread, 4 characters, 20 guard, split across 2 armies. Rules, codex, transport and 10 more marines.

 

I have more GW models and more GW plastic. I have better Malifaux models, I can make affordable purchases to expand my collection each month, and £150 allows me to have a wide range of models that work together succssfully. I don't even have 1,000 points of GW models, nor many of the more obvious, effective choices, that I cannot afford on my budget.....

 

Some of the f£££ may be slightly out, but you get the drift: the two are completely incomparable....fact....

[paradoxstorm]

A lot of the metal starter crews had 5 figures and were priced in the US$35 - $45 range so a 6 figure box @ US$ 50 isn't out of line.  And the retail on metal singles of modest size could easily hit $18.  

 

The real sticker shock comes when you go from ebay to retail  -- that will set your head to spinning.  (And before I get jumped on, I do buy some from the physical game store to pay for the play space that I use.)

 

If lower prices would sell enough extra models to keep profits the same or higher then prices would come down.  But that can only happen if a lot more people show up to buy Malifaux figures and no matter how much we might love the game, it is a niche market and a large increase in sales is unlikely.

[Brightmore]

Shadowdragon,

 

Right on this is an interesting topic and well worth the debate.

 

I FEEL.....overall the costs are reasonable but they need to SERIOUSLY work on the durability of some of the plastic models. I think if your not thinking about rocks or diamonds while fielding Yan Lo crew the skeletons will snap and break. To many of the models are a harsh wind gust away from snapping and breaking for your money.

 

Also I feel they could have given you far more Steam Arachnid Spiders for your money....and there is probably more offenders.

 

Nighthater

To fair, your bringing up their first round of plastic models, and arguably the worst(not looking, just some of the trickiest to put together, and most flimsy). 

 

Most of the modern plastic kits i have bought have not hat this problem at all, and I have bought. Grave Robbers(Which the Swords the Punks are a little shady, but I have not had any problems with them during game play, and transport yet, still a vast improvement). Body of Evidence(Chihuahua is sketcy, but I lost the paw for mine when I dropped it, so I just tossed it and used my old metal one). Mother of Monsters(Frankly a great kit in all respects), No Shelter Here(Again just a sweet set), Swamp Fiends(I think that is the name of Zoriada's crew, also totally sweet, other then a piece of Juju's vines breaking on the sprue)

 

I travel, and use these models pretty regularly and have not had any problems, I have way more problems with the old metals, and some problems with the T10 era plastics.

 

As for on topic about price. I don't find anything wrong with Malifaux pricing. Considering the high quality of the models(even if they are tricky to build), and the number of them you need to play. I do not feel that buying the models aren't a value. Think about this, buying a crew box in Malifaux is actually buying a crew that allows you to play the game at very close to full speed right off the get go. Compare this to basically any other mini-game where the starter box is basically the game with training wheels, and a bad value(Battle groups in Warmachine), or is actually a variety of the game, because you can't actually play the game(Dark Vengeance). So they are very good values. 

 

I mean if you think about it 500$, goes a lot farther in Malifaux, then in Warmachine or 40k. I mean in Malifaux 500 dollars gets me all of wave one Ressers(with a grip of money to spare), and a huge chunk of wave 2, my napkin math being you likely get something like 75% of the Resser models currently with rules? Vs. Warmachine where 500 dollars gets me 3 army builds, and maybe 40% of a faction, and for 40k 500 dollars gets me somewhere between 50%-70% of a playable force. 

 

Malifaux costs in the same realm to be fair, but the value of each individual purchase in the game is way higher.

 

edit: Also Metal Minis are not 12-15 bucks, most models with those prices are legacy priced Warmachine miniatures. Privateer doesn't consistently raise their prices on models to adjust for inflation or rising materials costs, so some models have frankly insane price points, because those price points were established I want to say 6 years ago after their last price redressing.

[Loveless]

$11-15 is about right for metal gaming miniatures that have a limited use (i.e., an army for the respective game can only have 1-2 of them).

$8-10 is probably about right for metal gaming miniatures that don't have quantity-cap.

 

Cipher Studios has 30mm minis that hit around the $11-15 marks unless you go after things that are packaged together (some of the Hell Dorado stuff) or stuff you may buy multiples of (Agent models in the Anima line).

 

A lot of the Infinity singles I looked at at random are coming in at $11. Looks like characters don't have any point-based price increase.

 

MERCS seem to universally run $10/model, but I have no idea about how many of each you can use in-game.

 

Deadzone is $8-10 for 25mm models, but Mantic prides themselves on low prices...and only a handful are metal.

 

 

----

 

Also, there's no "bad value" in the starter sets for Warmachine/Hordes.  If you do a battle box, you're typically getting a heavy, a warlock, and 2 lights for a decent discount over buying them separately.  The heavy included is usually going to be worth $25-30 on its own.  Then you have the actual starter sets for the two games which give you 2 battle boxes and 2 full troop units plus the rulebook for the cost of 2 battle boxes.

 

You're free to complain that PP games get as expensive as GW games at the end of the army build phase, but you can't argue that the start up is "expensive" or "poor value" without getting some backlash   The Hordes 2-player starter is a steal for a Circle and a Legion player and includes good options all-around for both sides.  The only "iffy" part about the Warmachine 2-player starter is the inclusion of Protectorate Cinerators instead of Bastions, as the former are less ubiquitous.

 

I won't say a thing about your GW comparison, since GW hasn't been able to put out a "pick-up-and-go" starter box in ages.  Arguably, though, the way armies are now built in the current edition of 40K, you can build "legal" forces out of Dark Vengeance and Stormclaw - they're just not going to be ideal in any way.

[SpiralngCadavr]

Eh, I could easily argue poor value on the PP starters since I hate working with PVC and I generally feel it's not a very pro medium considering the size of the company (you usually only see kickstarters, third party, and board games use the stuff) and the use of PVC was a good portion of why I stopped collecting PP- I don't like the medium and, I think many of their bigger minis lost a lot of interest in the translation to it.

It depends on what you want for gaming: If all you care about is being able to play, you can get a rulebook and print out a bunch of circles with names on them and that'll satisfy most games for $40-ish for the core book and a bunch of options for multiple factions (with bigger outliers being GW where you don't get any army rules so you're looking at another $50 or w/e per army (plus line of sight meaning there's no set volume for a model) and a few games like Infinity with free rules).

I play games with minis I like, however, so that's a huge factor. Sedition Wars is probably the cheapest game with minis I like, but that suffered fairly significantly due to production issues (again, PVC, where several of their LE minis had problems due to sculptors' inexperience) and a rushed first edition, and I've found that cheaper minis are rarely worth the extra effort needed to make them worth it. 9 times out of 10, I'd much rather spend more on a nice FW, Wyrd, or KD mini than get 4 poor minis or 2 okay minis.
 

[DeleteAccount]

The only plastic Malifaux model that has snapped on my is Misaki's hair spike thing and one of Izamu's banners, the first one sadly breaks constantly after regluing, but the banner is fit as a fiddle after gluing again, so with due care, I just don't see the flimsy. Hell, have had a couple of drops that would have been a deathsentence on a metal model not cause anything on plastics.

 

The other thing, please STOP ACTING LIKE IF METAL HAD SOME INHERENT VALUE!. The whole "plastic is cheap myth" annoys the hell out of me, there is no way that you can tell me heroclix plastic costs the same than industrial plastic or lego plastic, the same way that not all metals are created equal. So lets stop acting like if metals should automatically be more expensive just because they are casted from metal.

[Loveless]

Lord, Sedition Wars was a massive box of missed potential.  Nigh-unplayable first edition, the worst PVC I've ever dealt with, and overall horrible attitudes from everyone involved (CMoN was bad with communication after the funding period, backers were annoying and entitled sods, and Studio McVey through everyone into "insulted artist" hell after receiving criticism on a few sculpts).  I think I actually saw the core box go from shelf to clearance bin within a month.  Just a mess.

 

PVC isn't a deal-breaker for me by any means - as companies "figure it out" it gets more and more worth the asking price.  Mantic's Deadzone "plastics" have mostly tight, clean joins and pegs, but have some nasty moldlines (problem with the medium).  Soda Pop/Ninja Division's Relic Knights line is similar - good connection points, poor molding (but surprisingly good detail for the aesthetic).

 

Privateer's big issue is that they continue to release metal (and proper resin) alongside their PVC, which unfortunately can underscore the lower detail capable in PVC.  Compare a standard Convergence Light Vector (which are all horribly flawed and never fixed...but ignore that and look at the good parts ) to a Corollary and it's just sad at how much cleaner and sharper the detail on the Corollary is.  Not to say detail is bad on their PVC - fur, rivets, and armor designs all come out well - it's just that the metal and resin do it a lot better.

 

However, the plastic Warpwolf Stalker blows the metal one out of the water and the plastic Dragonspawn are identical or better than the metals. I can go either way with them.

 

 

The moral of the story, however, is that Wyrd should never, ever, for any reason start using PVC/restic/"premium" plastic for Malifaux crews or I will drive to their offices and hit Justin in the face with a fish.

[SpiralngCadavr]

Eh, I think first edition SW was poor, but it eventually got to be a very solid game even if it took some beating into shape, and after playing the mess that is Myth, I've completely changed my notions of "unplayable." (I could start a rant here, but suffice to say, the core book was missing rules for how you start or end scenarios, and needed a multipage FAQ on how you take actions, and one scenario, if you don't make several assumptions or guesses, involves setting up a dozen monsters and then the game "freezes" since there's nothing to do.) 

 

I agree that the choice to not wholly shift media highlights PP's PVC problem, though I just plain don't like 90% of their PVC, which they charge metal/nice plastic prices for.

 

Also, yeah, if Wyrd ever switched to PVC, that'd be a dark day in gaming. I'd find everything in metal or plastic I could, and then stop collecting for the game other than maybe some proxies.

[J_D]

You want bad pricing, come live in Aus and experience the 'Australia tax'. That $60 Gamestore Worldwide kit you buy, we pay $90. Think I am kidding, look at your rrp for recently released 'giant floating ultimate necromancer skeleton' and his book. I paid $150 each for those two.

Now when it comes to malifaux, I can actually get it from my LGS (the only place I buy from if they can get what I want) for close to US prices. This combined with the small model count and being able to start playing 30ss (mini tournament size) with crew sets makes me and everyone I have introduced to the game very happy. 2 months ago, nobody knew about malifaux in my area. Now, I have 10 players for a League I am starting next week. Of those, I have 2 guys that are addicted and already own Arcanist and Neverborn 2e starter box and I have to keep them updated on New releases so they can order them too.

Tl;dr Australia sucks for pricing, except when it comes to malifaux

[SpiralngCadavr]

Oh man, I feel sorry for you guys and GW's absurd gougification. 

 

I didn't realize- is it really most wargaming in general? I thought it was just GW that had it in for your part of the world.

[Shadowdragon]

The other thing, please STOP ACTING LIKE IF METAL HAD SOME INHERENT VALUE!. The whole "plastic is cheap myth" annoys the hell out of me, there is no way that you can tell me heroclix plastic costs the same than industrial plastic or lego plastic, the same way that not all metals are created equal. So lets stop acting like if metals should automatically be more expensive just because they are casted from metal.

 

Actually, plastic is supposed to be cheaper. The cost of tin (which is a major component of most metal miniatures) keeps skyrocketing, while the price of the various types of plastics used for miniatures stays pretty stable. This is the main reason most companies are switching to plastics.

 

Now, $11 isn't bad for a plastic miniature, as long as it's actually worth $11. Look at the malifaux child or the doppleganger; there just isn't really that much there, certainly not $11 worth (of plastic or "art" or anything else). It's like asking $11 for Baby Kade just because that's the "standard price for single Rare 1 miniatures". Can you honestly say miniatures like the malifaux child are equal to other $11 miniatures? This is what I meant by price creep, not necessarily that prices are going up, but that we seem to be getting less for the same price.

 

I also don't care if malifaux is cheaper overall to play than other games just because you need fewer miniatures to play it. I wouldn't pay $50 a miniature even if I only needed 3 miniatures to play the game, $50 for a single plastic miniature is asking too much. $11 for a doppleganger is definitely starting to feel like too much.

 

As for Wyrd being a small company and having to charge more to "keep the lights on", that's backwards logic. People see the higher prices and go elsewhere, meaning less business for Wyrd, which means less money in their pockets. If they lower prices more people will start buying their stuff which means in the long run Wyrd ends up making more money. It's just a shame everyone seems to think the solution is always to raise prices, not lower them.

[Inquisitor Wall]

I have not met a single person who used the cost of the game as a reason to not play it. If a person is already into miniatures, they know and accept the cost from the start. If it is someone that is not familiar with the game, I'm sure they are picking up a starter crew, which really is not a massive expense to get started with. 50.00 is less than a video game, or most other popular forms of entertainment. I would feel pretty safe assuming that the cost of the Malifaux child has not kept a single person from starting the game. Sure it is a bit high if you look at the model, but making a mold to make a plastic model will be the same whether it is a simple model like the child, or any other single model. Wyrd needs to make a profit off the cost of making the mold and production to make it worth their while to make something like the malifaux child anyway.

[SpiralngCadavr]

Like I said, I feel like they could have added something (even if it increased the price) to make the Child worth its cost, and I don't entirely agree with the "they have to make money" excuse, but it's their company so they can do what they want to. I'm not going to buy an $11 tiny model with a low in-game cost, but some people will, and I might have if I'd thought the rules or sculpt were amazing. If enough people buy a Malifaux child, it'll prove they're right about the cost; if not, I expect Wyrd will change their policy to reflect said lack of interest.