Mc Mourning - Organ Donor

[Daysleeper]

Hi Malifaulks,

 

I understand that when Mc Mourning deals 3 dmg to an model with only 1 wound remaining he only heals 1 wound himself, but there is another case in wich i'm not sure if i interpret the rules correctly.

 

Let's say the doc punches a nice meatbag with lots of wounds. He hits him for 3 dmg, heals 3 wounds. After that he hits him again for 3 dmg ... how much does he heal then?

 

Organ Donor says:

After this model inflicts damage with an MI Action, it heals an amount of damage equal to the damage inflicted. This model may not heal more than 5 damage per Activation in this way.

 

... equal ... not equal or less ... so does he realy heal no damage (wounds being the better word here i think)? Is this realy what was intended by design, did they miss it or am i just wrong?

 

Thanks for your help 

[Tuttleboy]

He can heal up to 5 damage. Once he's at 5 he is no longer healed. It doesn't matter if he does 6 Dg in one attack or 6 in 2 or 3 attacks. Heal 5, then stop healing him.

[Kadeton]

Also, some people will stridently argue that if he does 3 Dg to a model with 1 Wd remaining, he heals 3 Wd.

[Tuttleboy]

Also, some people will stridently argue that if he does 3 Dg to a model with 1 Wd remaining, he heals 3 Wd.

Yup and I call BS on that!!!

[hypoking]

Also, some people will stridently argue that if he does 3 Dg to a model with 1 Wd remaining, he heals 3 Wd.

This is actually legit. Same reasoning behind dumb luck backfiring for full effect.

[Math Mathonwy]

This is actually legit. Same reasoning behind dumb luck backfiring for full effect.

True. It also means that Armor (OK, he ignores Armor, but stuff like Lenny's aura or Riders' triggers and such) or Soul Stone prevention doesn't affect McM's healing, right?

[zFiend]

True. It also means that Armor (OK, he ignores Armor, but stuff like Lenny's aura or Riders' triggers and such) or Soul Stone prevention doesn't affect McM's healing, right?

Exactly right.

[MasterDisaster]

Yeah, I think this comes down to the wording on Organ Donor. It says McMourning "heals an amount of damage equal to the damage inflicted". McMourning might inflict 4 Dmg but after a SS the target might only suffer 2. Because McMourning inflicts 4 he heals 4. SS and the other aforementioned reduction / prevention abilities are ignored because the wording is different. At least this is how I've always interpreted this one. 

[Math Mathonwy]

Yeah, I think this comes down to the wording on Organ Donor. It says McMourning "heals an amount of damage equal to the damage inflicted". McMourning might inflict 4 Dmg but after a SS the target might only suffer 2. Because McMourning inflicts 4 he heals 4. SS and the other aforementioned reduction / prevention abilities are ignored because the wording is different. At least this is how I've always interpreted this one.

As a clarification, from the Dumb Luck ruling, we know that suffered means the same as inflicted when it comes to abilities like this.

[The Godlyness]

As a clarification, from the Dumb Luck ruling, we know that suffered means the same as inflicted when it comes to abilities like this.

now i am agreeing that organ donor heals the damage he does

 

am i a third party? believing what ever damage is done after reduction and prevention is what he has inflicted.? and that is what he heals.  so a model at 1 wound him dealing 2 heals 2.  him doing 2 damage and soulstone prevents 1 he only heals 1. etc.

 

but the Faq Says similar triggers...not abilities.

[zFiend]

I think the faq can be used quite clearly on this even if it says triggers, this ability is very much similar for it to be unneeded for the faq to say triggers and abilities.

[Ausplosions]

I think the faq can be used quite clearly on this even if it says triggers, this ability is very much similar for it to be unneeded for the faq to say triggers and abilities.

Agree 100%

[MasterDisaster]

Actually after re-reading the FAQ (which I had totally forgot about!) I have to agree. It seems fairly clear. Damage actually taken by the Target = Damage McMourning heals. 

[The Godlyness]

I think the faq can be used quite clearly on this even if it says triggers, this ability is very much similar for it to be unneeded for the faq to say triggers and abilities.

But on the forum we have been told many times the faq addresses specific issues and not to umbrella other rules under it. Heck it is in the rule forum rules.

So I am a third party. Well. Vote for Pedro. (My name is not pedro)

[Daysleeper]

Okay so to summarize: In my examples from the openingpost he would heal up to 5 wounds total and he would only heal 1 wound in the second example. Okay, thx people :-)

[hypoking]

The faq ruling in question goes out of its way to point out its an umbrella. Which would argue that until stated otherwise it applies broadly. I think the difference between damage inflicted and wounds the target suffers is one of those Lilith v slurid distinctions without a difference.

[The Godlyness]

Swear i just explained this in another thread. this time i will be less condescending and more informative. but to Start out

 

Triggers and Abilities are not Synonymous

 

Abbreviated from the FAQ

This answer applies to any Triggers which generate something based on the amount of damage suffered by the target (for example, the Desolation Engine’s Restabilize Trigger).

 

No where in that does it mention abilities. So why yes it umbrellas Other similar triggers it does not cover this. You are coming to right conclusion but they way you are getting there is wrong.

 

Now to start this out. Most peoples logic is: if i mark off, lower, or remove 2 wounds from my model you have done 2 damage. Now this is not inherently wrong but it does not always apply.

 

rule book

 

When a number of points of damage is taken by a model, it reduces its current Wounds by that amount. If the model is reduced to 0 or fewer Wounds it is immediately removed from the game as killed.

 

So if your model is at 1 wound and i do 2 damage, My model has Done 2 damage. Regardless if you can only lower your wound count by 1 since it cant go lower than 0. the Amount i have dealt is 2 damage.

 

Further clarify if a model has: Hard to Kill: While this model has 2 or more Wd remaining when it suffers damage, it may not be reduced to below 1 Wd, And it has 2 wounds left and i inflict, deal, make it suffer 3 Damage. I have done 3 damage. Not 1. just because it only takes a total of 1 damage does not mean i only did 1 damage.

 

FAQ

 

Q: Can a model ever be reduced to a negative number of Wounds?
A: No. The lowest number of Wounds a model may ever have is zero (0).

 

So to Drive this point home if a model is at 1wd and McMourning flips severe damage (6) and after all reduction and prevention the total is still 6 damage the model suffers 6 damage. it can only lower its wound count by 1 but McM has done 6.

 

No Rule in the Rule book nor FAQ/Errata says "when a model is reduced to 0 wounds all further damage is reduced to 0"  since Damage is a lump sum not a lower by 1 till the damage suffered is reached. As long as your attack does more than 0 Damage it does Damage.

 

Now on McMourning. If he does weak damage (2) and after reduction and/or Prevention the result is 0 Damage he would heal 0 damage Because he has dealt,inflicted,done 0 damage.

FAQ

 

Q: If a model suffers 0 (zero) damage, does it count as having suffered damage?
A: No.

 

So my First Declarative Statement.

McMourning Heals the Amount of Damage he does after Reduction and/or Prevention.  (i.e flips weak of 2 damage his Target SS prevents 1 therefore he only heals 1)

if you believe this incorrect please Explain why with rules and reasons.

 

Second Declarative Statement.

Marking, Removing, Reducing, Lowering, ETC you wound count Does not Always Equal how much damage you have suffered.

Again if you believe this incorrect please explain why

 

Third Declarative Statement.

Triggers and Abilities are NOT Synonymous or the Same thing

again if you believe different Explain why

 

I hope i explained that well enough.

[Math Mathonwy]

But on the forum we have been told many times the faq addresses specific issues and not to umbrella other rules under it. Heck it is in the rule forum rules.

So I am a third party. Well. Vote for Pedro. (My name is not pedro)

Are you playing a devil's advocate or do you actually, sincerely believe that this particular ability is going to be ruled differently than the trigger when they have the same wording?

Because seriously, I think that it has been made crystal clear that interpreting Malifaux rules may need a slight dose of common sense. I know which way I will be playing this unless a new FAQ entry is posted (which I find supremely unlikely).

[zFiend]

But on the forum we have been told many times the faq addresses specific issues and not to umbrella other rules under it. Heck it is in the rule forum rules.

So I am a third party. Well. Vote for Pedro. (My name is not pedro)

Also it has been said in the forum rules not to play Devils advocate.

[deValmont]

In cases like these I would apply the reading of the rules that best applied to the fluff of the ability. He is getting his strength back by literally removing parts of the enemy and replenishing himself with them. So therefore the damage that bounces off the armor, or is stopped by the soulstone strength of the enemy, wouldn't leave a big hole to pull a spleen out of.

[Math Mathonwy]

In cases like these I would apply the reading of the rules that best applied to the fluff of the ability. He is getting his strength back by literally removing parts of the enemy and replenishing himself with them. So therefore the damage that bounces off the armor, or is stopped by the soulstone strength of the enemy, wouldn't leave a big hole to pull a spleen out of.

Eh, he can heal from Incorporeal ghosts as well as from mechanical robots or beings of pure fire or whatever. I really wouldn't take fluff into account.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Given the intent of the rule has not changed from last edition, and they clarified last edition that McMorning only healed the actual wounds inflicted, IE a model with only 1 wound would only heal Mcmorning 1 no matter if the model was hit for 10, that is how I will be ruling it in any rules disputes that come up.

I thoroughly realize that it isn't an incredibly strong argument to base it upon, but given Wyrd's less strict RAW policy this edition, please see Lilith vs silirids, and the fact that the vast majority of abilities are designed to function the same as last edition I feel confident this was the intent.

I don't have an issue if someone wants to rule it otherwise, but if in asked for a rules clarification that's how I would rule barring an official response.

[Math Mathonwy]

Given the intent of the rule has not changed from last edition, and they clarified last edition that McMorning only healed the actual wounds inflicted, IE a model with only 1 wound would only heal Mcmorning 1 no matter if the model was hit for 10, that is how I will be ruling it in any rules disputes that come up.

I thoroughly realize that it isn't an incredibly strong argument to base it upon, but given Wyrd's less strict RAW policy this edition, please see Lilith vs silirids, and the fact that the vast majority of abilities are designed to function the same as last edition I feel confident this was the intent.

I don't have an issue if someone wants to rule it otherwise, but if in asked for a rules clarification that's how I would rule barring an official response.

But how do you reconcile that with the ruling on Dumb Luck and, especially, Desolation Engine's trigger which is mentioned in the same ruling?

For the record:

Restabilize: After damaging, this model heals an amount of

damage equal to the amount of damage the target suffered from

this Attack.

And this was, explicitly, ruled to work on the damage originally inflicted before reductions or whatnot and regardless of the wounds that the model had left.

The relevant part of the FAQ:

Q: When a Gremlin deals damage and activates the Dumb Luck Trigger, does the gremlin take half of the total damage flipped, or half of the damage actually put onto the target? For example, if Dumb Luck caused the target to suffer 4 damage, but the target had Armor +2, reducing that damage to 2, would the Gremlin take half of the original 4 damage, or half of the 2 damage suffered after accounting for Armor?

A: The Gremlin takes half of the total damage flipped, so the Gremlin in the example would suffer 2 damage (4 divided by 2). This answer applies to any Triggers which generate something based on the amount of damage suffered by the target (for example, the Desolation Engine’s Restabilize Trigger).

[mythicFOX]

<MOD HAT>

 

I've had to remove some content from this thread.  

 

Consider this a polite reminder to play nice kids.

 

</MOD HAT>

[The Godlyness]

Also it has been said in the forum rules not to play Devils advocate.

In those same rules it says the faq addresses specific things.

And no I firmly believe what I say. No devils advocate. I even backed up what I said with rules and faqs

But there are 3 separate opinions here.

1 McMourning heals only the wounds the model had left

2 McMourning heals what he flips regardless of damage modifiers or mitigation

3 McMourning heals what he flips +/- modifiers reduction prevention.

I have explained my position as group three. Please explain yours.

[The Godlyness]

No where does that faq say abilities. Triggers are not abilities. They are two separate things with separate rules. They may act similar but they are not the same. So the faq clarifies and umbrellas other like wise triggers. It does not mention any where in the that question abilities.

So why yes he heals off of damage. It can be clearly interpreted thst reduction and prevention reduce how much he heals.

Saying he heals 2 damage from a weak damage flip even if the damage inflicted/suffered is 0 due to prevention/reduction. Strikes me personally in my opinion as absurd.