Bodyguard Question

[jonahmaul]

So the thread on whether stuff was OP got shut down (though I'm not entirely sure why as it seemed to be a pretty good discussion about different things that could be OP).  This question came up so I'm just copy and pasting it here in the hope somebody can give me an answer:

 

 

The Godlyness, on 27 Aug 2014 - 7:45 PM, said:

You do know if I kill your bodyguard and you resummon it with yan lo I have denied you bodyguard cause the summoned model is not the model you declared bodyguard on.

How so?  My declared model is Izamu.  Reliquary specifically states name a friendly Ancestor model (Izamu) which was killed or scarified in this game...summon the name model (Izamu) into base contact with target corpse marker.  Is there a rule or FAQ that specifically addresses this not being the case as I don't see how it could not be the model that you named (edit - this seems like I'm being argumentative which I'm not, this is a genuine enquiry.  Hard to get tone on the internet!).

[Kalkris]

Consider that a model like Teddy can be a Bodyguarded model. If I am playing dreamer, with the Tannen-Teddy capabilities, you kill my first Teddy, and I summon a new one, you have still denied me Bodyguard because the summoned Teddy is not the hired Teddy with the scheme on its head.

 

I would suggest that you not think of Reliquary summoning as "resummoning"; even if the model is Rare 1 and you use the same model, it's a mechanically different model. I know its unfluffy, but that's sometimes the loss when a mechanic like this is in play.

 

~Lil Kalki

[Lucidicide]

My opinion, i.e. nothing official to see here:

 

The wording of Yan Lo is not saying you resurrect the dead model, rather you are summoning a copy of it. You are summoning the named model, you are not summoning THE model. It's still a different model.

[cdhay]

You name a specific model. Say izamu 1.

when you resummon it it's now izamu 2. And so on. Bodyguard is on izamu 1 so you won't get bodyguard.

however think it is different on bad juju eternal fiend as that is the same model being buried and unburied and not dying

[The Godlyness]

Burying a model is not killing it so if it unburied and away from deployment zone you get points. But otherwise it's like saying hey ashes and dust you died and then reformed you are the same model.

Also what if I had murder protege on ashes and he died and reformed do I in gain points now since the model is not dead?

[Rathnard]

Bad Juju is never killed, just buried. So the Bad Juju model you declared Bodyguard on doesn't change. 

 

If bodyguard just required you to name a model type (which is essentially what the OP is suggesting), then in theory you could name a non-rare enforcer (eg. Teddy), take multiples of them, and then watch as your opponent tries to kill every one of them to deny Bodyguard.

[Ausplosions]

It is a new summoned model. You have lost bodyguard.

[jonahmaul]

Good discussion though I'd still love to see something official on it as it could be argued either way.  Although I play Ressers with Yan Lo I would accept it's a bit too much to be able to bring him back and get Bodyguard.  But there is definitely an interpretation of the rules that suggests it is the case.  I don't know anything about Bad Juju but does his bury mechanic mean he is really hard to deny Bodyguard points on?  The other case I was thinking of with my own crew is the Bete Noir and her bury/unbury mechanic but as she can only unbury on enemy kills it's nowhere near as effective.

[Ausplosions]

It can't be played either way.

If you play it the way you argue you are cheating.

[zFiend]

Bad Juju becomes buried when he would be killed, thus it's the same model when it pops back up. 

[Ausplosions]

And Bete Nor is not killed. She is buried.

And she CAN come back out from your crew deaths. Not just enemy.

[zFiend]

And Bete Nor is not killed. She is buried.

And she CAN come back out from your crew deaths. Not just enemy.

 

 

Any Living or Undead model that dies qualifies for her to come back up. 

[jonahmaul]

It can't be played either way.

If you play it the way you argue you are cheating.

I never said it would be played either way, I said it could be interpreted another way as I have demonstrated.  Now I'm not claiming that this interpretation is correct and I would agree that being able to summon the same model back (even though this is what the Yan Lo upgrade suggests) is a bit much.  But there is an interpretation that suggests that it is possible to bring the same model back.  After all the rules for Bodyguard specifically mention a 'model' and there is only one Izamu model (edit - or other Ancestor, I am just using Izamu because his self heal and armour makes him a good BG choice) in the game so it could be argued otherwise and it is a very easy mistake to make (as my gaming group has done).   The Teddy example doesn't work because you have to declare a specific Teddy for Bodyguard but there is only ever one Izamu model.  And there is nothing clear in the rules or FAQ that I can see that specifically states you cannot do this.

[jonahmaul]

 

Any Living or Undead model that dies qualifies for her to come back up. 

My bad!  Had it in my head that it had to be an enemy model for some reason.  Makes her a very interesting choice for Bodyguard if you've got some cheap stuff around that you don't mind killing off to pop her back up.  Have to get this lady on the table!

[zFiend]

Maybe if you look at it more like a specific summon mechanic. 

 

Say you are playing the Dreamer and you hire a model that then goes off and drops dead, you summon another model in (Teddy) you agree it doesn't work for Bodyguard.

 

Well Yan Lo is the exact same, except with restrictions to his summoning. When you put Bodyguard on Izamu, he dies, he turns into a corpse marker but with Yan Lo you can only summon the ancestor that died, but it will be a new Izamu, not the same Izamu. 

[jonahmaul]

Maybe if you look at it more like a specific summon mechanic. 

 

Say you are playing the Dreamer and you hire a model that then goes off and drops dead, you summon another model in (Teddy) you agree it doesn't work for Bodyguard.

 

Well Yan Lo is the exact same, except with restrictions to his summoning. When you put Bodyguard on Izamu, he dies, he turns into a corpse marker but with Yan Lo you can only summon the ancestor that died, but it will be a new Izamu, not the same Izamu. 

I was referring to this Teddy example not the resummoning one:

 

If bodyguard just required you to name a model type (which is essentially what the OP is suggesting), then in theory you could name a non-rare enforcer (eg. Teddy), take multiples of them, and then watch as your opponent tries to kill every one of them to deny Bodyguard.

 

I definitely agree that it is (sort of) a new model, it would just be good if there was something clear in the rules/FAQ to make this explicit as my gaming group have interpreted it differently (which has worked to my advantage at least once that I can remember, maybe two or three times) and I could definitely see others doing the same.

[jonahmaul]

Just to add again - I'm not trying to be argumentative and argue against this ruling because it does make the most sense.  But I would like something clear to refer to.

[Dirial]

Just to add again - I'm not trying to be argumentative and argue against this ruling because it does make the most sense.  But I would like something clear to refer to.

 

Hm? If you are convinced that it makes sense, why not refer to the rules that convinced you? Nowhere on Reliquary's card can something be found that says "The previous model didn't die." It's safe to assume, that the model thus died, and you cannot get Bodyguard from it.

 

I'm not against this being in the FAQ, but I think it's too obvious to really warrant it. No need to rule something that is adequately ruled already.

[jonahmaul]

Hm? If you are convinced that it makes sense, why not refer to the rules that convinced you? Nowhere on Reliquary's card can something be found that says "The previous model didn't die." It's safe to assume, that the model thus died, and you cannot get Bodyguard from it.

 

I'm not against this being in the FAQ, but I think it's too obvious to really warrant it. No need to rule something that is adequately ruled already.

Because equally it doesn't state on Bodyguard that the model cannot die and come back to life (through whichever mechanic).  It just says that you reveal on turn 4 and if still alive you get a VP, same on subsequent turns and if alive at end of the game and on over half wounds another VP (up to the obvious max).  If a unique model has died but been re-summoned it can be interpreted as still alive and therefore fulfilling the VP requirement.  I'm sure there are other examples that I do not know of, but Ancestors and Yan Lo, Bete Noir and Candy were the ones that came up in discussion with my friend (although Candy's bury mechanic moves her back to her deployment zone so not as good for VPs).

[Adran]

Just out of interest, when you Summon Izamu back from the Reliquy did you activate it on the same turn? Even if the previous Izamu had already activated that turn?

Did you keep any conditions on Izamu that the Previous Izamu had on him?

Did you keep the new Izamu on the same number of wounds as the old Izamu had been on?

 

I'm guessing that the answerr to all those will have been no, so you were treating it as a new model already

[Dirial]

In agreement with the others in this thread, I don't think that it can be interpreted in that way. One model dies, another model (that has the same name) get's summoned. The first one was the Bodyguard target, the second one isn't.

 

Totally different with models like Bete, where, in contrast to Reliquary, the card explicitly states "This model doesn't die."

 

The question is not "Is a model with the same name alive at the end of Turn 4?". Then, Rail Workers would make good Bodyguard targets. The question is "Is the model I (covertly) nominated for Bodyguard still alive?" Which it wouldn't be.

[jonahmaul]

Just out of interest, when you Summon Izamu back from the Reliquy did you activate it on the same turn? Even if the previous Izamu had already activated that turn?

Did you keep any conditions on Izamu that the Previous Izamu had on him?

Did you keep the new Izamu on the same number of wounds as the old Izamu had been on?

 

I'm guessing that the answerr to all those will have been no, so you were treating it as a new model already

Good points except that you die when all conditions are removed so these still don't effect the interpretation that I am putting forward (and again, this is not my interpretation any longer, but it is still an easy interpretation to make).  Many things also get to reactivate in various ways and you couldn't keep the 'new' Izamu on the same wounds because it can only be re-summoned once he's died.  Therefore there's still an interpretation that things that have been killed but somehow come back to life (Masters like Levi and Assassinate for example) do/don't fulfil VP conditions. We have, I think, played it incorrectly in my gaming group and I will need to be more cautious if I opt for BG on Izamu in the future (though still a solid choice IMHO), but I would still like to be able to show my group something definite in the rules/FAQ to demonstrate that it can't be done.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I don't think you are going to get anything official out if this. Justin has said that even him popping on to a forum and clarifying something isn't official unless it appears in the FAQ, and the FAQ is only going to have things in it where there is serious and major disagreements that absolutely requires clarification. This doesn't. I understand how you are reasoning this, but it is incorrect. The newly summoned Izamu is a new model not the old one.

If you can't accept the majority's opinion on this, well there really isn't anything else to be said. You are obviously free to house rule this this way in your own group if that makes the game more fun for you. But just understand it will be a house rule and I'm 100% certain that if some one tried this interpretation at adepticon or gen con it would be over ruled by the TO.

That isn't an insult to you or a denigration.'if your group wants to interpret the rule that way no one can stop you. But you are almost certainly not going to get a developer in here to say it works differently, given how they have stated they want the FAQ to be the only place for official answers, and this isn't a question that needs to be put in the FAQ.

[jonahmaul]

I'm not arguing otherwise.  I've already said that I do accept the majority interpretation as it makes more sense (not that everything in Malifaux makes sense all the time!) and that we've been playing it incorrectly.  But majority opinions are still just opinions and being a majority doesn't make something right (although in this case I think it does) which is why I'm playing Devil's Advocate and demonstrating how there could be an alternative definition.  I was hoping there was something already in the rules/FAQ that made it clear.

[Dirial]

I'm not arguing otherwise.  I've already said that I do accept the majority interpretation as it makes more sense (not that everything in Malifaux makes sense all the time!) and that we've been playing it incorrectly.  But majority opinions are still just opinions and being a majority doesn't make something right (although in this case I think it does) which is why I'm playing Devil's Advocate and demonstrating how there could be an alternative definition.  I was hoping there was something already in the rules/FAQ that made it clear.

 

We get that. All Fetid and I were trying to say is: It doesn't need to be FAQ'd, because it's clear already in the rules. There is no possible different interpretation if you follow the rules wording, and not a fluff interpretation.

 

Sure, the wording could be clearer, but as this thread has shown, it's clear enough that there is no issue.

[Ausplosions]

You are not playing devil's advocate.

 

You are asking for official clarification on something that is completely and utterly clear if you just read the rules. 

 

It's not FAQ worthy. It's just something you have unfortunately been doing incorrectly.