Windblast and Pushing Direction

[brdparker]

Thinking about cool tricks to do with the Oxfordian Magi when they come out, and I'm reading the pullmyfinger article. I was actually planning on updating it with some of my own things that I've done, when I came across this:

 

"The push in "Windblast" doesn't specify "in any direction", so it's presumed the push is directly away from the caster, so using that to position guys in for Toni's adrenaline is a little more difficult/situational."

 

Come again?

 

Background: Ox Magi have a Ca attack at range that has several single-tome triggers, one of which is Windblast: "After succeeding, push the target 2" for each tome in the final duel total."

 

The text of the Windblast trigger doesn't specify a direction, like the PMF article says. Why should I assume it's directly away from the caster? I'd believe it in the case of majority rules (or official ruling), but I'd like to get a page number if there is one.

[The Godlyness]

Weird been playing that wrong then. It's missing the verbiage "in any direction" So it has to be away or towards. But it's also missing that verbiage. So it needs some clarification.

[brdparker]

Weird been playing that wrong then. It's missing the verbiage "in any direction" So it has to be away or towards. But it's also missing that verbiage. So it needs some clarification.

 

That's the question though. Why does it have to be away or towards?

[DocSchlock]

"After succeeding, push the target 2" for each tome in the final duel total."

While I assume this is any direction since there's no direction information in there, it would be nice to have this clarified at some point, since most other push effects explicitly state how you push them.
 

[zFiend]

I think that pushes are clarified in the book to be always directly away from the model. 

[DocSchlock]

Pg 46, small rulebook:

"Some game effects require a model to be pushed in relation to another object, such
as towards or away from another model. When this happens the model must move
in a straight line while obeying these restrictions, moving directly towards (or away
from) the specified object."

There's no relation information in Windblast, so I'd say you can move however you want.

[namtar]

http://wyrd-games.net/community/topic/102029-push-base-to-base-with-a-scheme-marker/?p=741266 

[Uktena]

So since the push isn't relative to an object you can shove em all over the place?

[DocSchlock]

Namtar, that link actually proves my point.

"Besides that the relevant rules quoted and explained here multiple times are clear: pushes made in relation of an object are ALWAYS done moving directly towards or away."

Windblast is not in relation to an object, so it in essence has "in any direction" in it.

Uktena, you push the model up to (2* the number of Tomes) inches in any direction since there's no object reference.

[LordFezzington]

Strikes me that a blast of wind emanating from the Mage would push the target directly away, no? Just my common sense thinking, not necessarily the rules.

[brdparker]

Strikes me that a blast of wind emanating from the Mage would push the target directly away, no? Just my common sense thinking, not necessarily the rules.

Ha, sparked some debate, I see. Cool

 

That was my first thought, but I justify it by saying that they have control over the gust, so it can emanate from any point. In D&D, the lvl 3 (I think) sorc/wiz spell Gust of Wind can emanate from any point... Different game, but hey, does anyone want to try a D20 mod to the malifaux TTG?

 

Back on topic, I have a quasi-balance rationale for why it could/should be in any direction: to make more use of the Mages' (0) action. Use Captain or other movement trick to get the mage in LOS of something (or vice-versa), and Windblast the target 6" toward the trio,  preferably something with armor, strange as that sounds. Then windblast 6" again, and then 6" again and then (0) attack to gain a SS. Then another one activates (maybe the one that can do melee (1) attacks) and (0)'s to gain a SS, and then windblasts it away (or not, at leisure). The third one can then attack at range and pull it in, (0) actioning to gain yet another SS, or if was already in melee range and not the target's not dead, focus and (0) to gain a SS and cheat to get severe if possible. The thing should be really dead at this point, if not a few steps before. Right timing can give you a good Vendetta or Kidnap/Hostage (what's that scheme called again?) objective, and the SS's you gain siphon into (for example) Ironsides' attacks/damage prevention.

 

Too powerful do you think?

[Tuttleboy]

Take a read of a 4 page thread on pushes starting with the post link below. In it I make the argument that "push into base to base" means you must end in base to base if possible. Turns out I was wrong. Unless there is verbiage in the ability that lets you pick a direction, pushes are always a straight center to center line. There's nothing in the current Ox Mage card that says pick a direction.

 

 

http://wyrd-games.net/community/topic/102029-push-base-to-base-with-a-scheme-marker/?p=740998

[brdparker]

Take a read of a 4 page thread on pushes starting with the post link below. In it I make the argument that "push into base to base" means you must end in base to base if possible. Turns out I was wrong. Unless there is verbiage in the ability that lets you pick a direction, pushes are always a straight center to center line. There's nothing in the current Ox Mage card that says pick a direction.

 

 

http://wyrd-games.net/community/topic/102029-push-base-to-base-with-a-scheme-marker/?p=740998

 

I follow you, but what in the ability says what the direction is? The origin point is obviously its starting position. What determines the terminating position?

[Tuttleboy]

A straight line originating from the center of the Ox Mage's base that passes through the center of the affected model's base. Extend the line to the maximum distance or until the model being pushed runs into something that he can't get past.

[DocSchlock]

In your example, that is the correct ruling. When a push is relative to another object (in your case, a scheme marker) the push must move center to center in relation to that object. In the BtB case, the model must move both center to center and attempt to end BtB.

There is no object to move in relation to in the Oxfordian Mage's push. This is the problem. There isn't even one implied, nor is there any direction, which would be required if the push was center to center. It would need to say "away" or "towards" or "base to base" or something that points out how the pushed model should move.

Simply saying "pushed" leads me to think it's in any direction. No object to move in relation to, no direction given.
 

 

 

A straight line originating from the center of the Ox Mage's base that passes through the center of the affected model's base. Extend the line to the maximum distance or until the model being pushed runs into something that he can't get past.

 

What makes you think it's away from the mage? I can argue with equal evidence it is in fact towards the mage, towards the nearest model, away from the nearest Leader, etc.

[Cats Laughing]

A straight line originating from the center of the Ox Mage's base that passes through the center of the affected model's base. Extend the line to the maximum distance or until the model being pushed runs into something that he can't get past.

 

The argument that I, and others would have, is that the Directly toward/away criteria for Pushes is only in relation to Pushes that specify an object that the push is being made in relation to.  In the thread you point us to, the Push in question is being made 'towards a scheme marker' and in that case there is an object that the Push is being made in relation to.

What object is the push being made in relation to in the case of the Oxfordian Mage's action?  Why do you think it is in relation to the Oxfordian Mage?

Other Push abilities either specify an object the push is in relation to or 'any direction'

[asrian]

Reading it, and having it used against me earlier today, I'm fine with the interpretation of any direction. It doesn't say/restrict away from target, ergi it's any direction.

My opinion though.

[Ausplosions]

Reading it, and having it used against me earlier today, I'm fine with the interpretation of any direction. It doesn't say/restrict away from target, ergi it's any direction.

My opinion though.

Agreed.

[jonahmaul]

Agree too.  I think the issue is that there are cards that say push in any direction that are confusing things (which is an editorial problem as per the thread linked above).  There should be two definitions: either (1) push target directly towards/away from [object] or (2) push target/push target in any direction (just one of the second option).  The fact that we have text for both of option (2) seems to be where the confusion has stemmed.  If there was consistency across the cards and it just had one of these on every card that allows you to push without it being in relation to an object then it would be clear imho.  The lack of 'in any direction' on the Oxfordian Mage's card (in this example) still implies that it can be any direction but because there are other cards that explicitly state this it leads to confusion.

[zFiend]

My understanding is that every push is directly away unless a direction is stated.

[jonahmaul]

Unless I am missing something the rulebook doesn't state this.  The small rulebook states 'usually, when a model is pushed it must be moved as close to the maximum distance of the push as possible, in a straight line... some game effects require a model to be pushed in relation to another object, such as towards or away from another model.  When this happens the models must move in a straight line while obeying these restrictions, moving directly towards (or away from) the specified object' (p. 46).  If it's just a push then it can be in any direction, it just has to be a straight line.  It only has to be directly away if this is stated (as opposed to having to state that it is not directly away)

[Ausplosions]

My understanding is that every push is directly away unless a direction is stated.

 

 

You're understanding is incorrect. It doesn't state that anywhere in the book.

[egoon]

My understanding is that every push is directly away unless a direction is stated.

 

My understanding is quite the opposite. I have not found anywhere in the book or FAQ that says that 'away from' is the default push. If you do please supply a reference.

 

To me it seems natural to assume that if no direction is specified, you may push in any direction.

[brdparker]

My understanding is quite the opposite. I have not found anywhere in the book or FAQ that says that 'away from' is the default push. If you do please supply a reference.

 

To me it seems natural to assume that if no direction is specified, you may push in any direction.

 

That seems to be the majority thought (and one I share), but I haven't seen an admin rule, so I'm hesitant to change the wiki. But I wouldn't feel uncomfortable playing it with no specified direction, so that's progress.

[jonahmaul]

Personally I think the bit that I quoted from the rulebook above makes it quite clear.  You have to push in a straight line but this line can be in any direction unless it's otherwise specified that it's in relation to an object.

[Cunning]

The rules make it very clear.  This push isn't in relation to another model so can be in any direction