3" push and 3" melee range

[StuffedKiwi]

This came up in a game tonight. Lilith, who has the Living Blade upgrade (Ml range increased to 3"), is in base to base with Fuhatsu. Fuhatsu performs his Madman with a Gatling Gun action; Lilith fails the WP duel, and is pushed 3" away from Fuhatsu. So the question we had was whether Lilith and Fuhatsu were still engaged? Could Fuhatsu shoot? Did Lilith need to charge in order to attack him, or could she stand there and swing?

Thanks in advance.

[Seregon]

I would say that since Base to Base is effectively 0", then the 3" push would put Lilith exactly 3" away from Fuhatsu, and thus still be in melee range and engaged with him.

[jonahmaul]

That would be my understanding of it too, and is how I would play it.  But I could see people arguing the point the other way.  Do you have to be within 3" to be considered engaged (I don't have a rulebook to hand)?  If so then there's an argument that by being exactly 3" away you are not within the melee range.  Personally I think it's a pretty weak argument and wouldn't play it that way though.

[MasterDisaster]

This situation has come up with me and Johan. He also have a 3" range with their Relic Hammer and also has a trigger which pushes the enemy 3" away. I've always played it that if you start in B2B and then push them away you are still engaged as B2B is basically 0" and the push puts you on the exact 3" point so Johan can still swing away without prejudice. 

[Math Mathonwy]

This is an extremely common thing with Mei (her 3" melee attack moves her to base to base and she has an upgrade giving an autotrigger to push the opponent 3").

 

I agree with the consensus, btw.

[Ausplosions]

As with all measurements. If you are AT 3" or less, you are WITHIN 3" or less.

[StuffedKiwi]

Thanks for the quick responses, and glad there seems to be a consensus on this.

[Trax]

For what it's worth, I see it differently.

 

This is just a special case of a measurement problem that permeates all of table-top gaming, and it's a way bigger problem in Warhammer for instance (loads of stuff has a range of 24" and that's the standard starting distance for encounters):

 

If two units/models start at a distance of x inches, any measurements of x inch to the opposing model will fall short an infinitesimal small amount. That's the concensus "there" - the situation is exactly the same as here with Malifaux though and I know the arguments for both sides, but in the end, it falls down to a consensual definition of it.

 

As a "special" argument specific to Malifaux: I don't think it's coincidental that (for instance) Fuhatsu's push is 3". This way, he gets out of the range of pretty much every melee engagement, and I think that's on purpose, but alas, this is pretty much interpreting the designers' thoughts, and thus, moot, but take it as food for thought.

 

Whatever it may be: I was just chiming in to say, that not all players might follow the way here presented. I certainly don't (for no tabletop game, that is).

[Icemyn]

Agree with Trax. 

Rusty Alyce has this ability: 
Snares: Enemy models cannot end a Charge within a3.

Is the belief that models with 3" Ml ranges can charge her?

 

If not how do you reconcile measuring 3" differently? 

It's not as if the point at which you measure from is different in either instance.

[jonahmaul]

I think Trax makes a lot of sense.  I just looked through the rulebook and FAQ and couldn't see anything that explicitly covering this so it's probably something that should make it into the next FAQ.

[DocSchlock]

It's in the rulebook under the definition of "Within", pg 40, small rulebook. I'm not sure where a "consensual definition" is needed.

A model with a 3" range 3" away from Fuhatsu is still engaging Fuhatsu.

Model with a 3" range will never be able to charge Alyce, since some part of its base must be equal to or inside of 3" away, period.

[jonahmaul]

Nice catch Docschlock, I'm guessing that's what Ausplosions was saying too but the page number reference clears things up.

[Icemyn]

So if you measure 3" from Alyce's base and say ok she can't be charged by Mei Feng here. 
Mei Feng comes along and pushes Alyce 3" again measured from her base and suddenly can swing at her. 

That is what you are saying?

I guess this makes sense if there exists a line at 3"
Rusty says don't cross this line and Mei Feing says sit exactly on it. 

[Trax]

That is really a great catch, Docschlock, and in light of this, there is really no case to be made for what I've been saying earlier here in Malifaux, thanks for the find, I did overlook that one.

 

Oh, I wish, there were such notions in the rulebooks of certain other game designers...

 

As for Alyce/Mei Feng: Yeah, walking there, pushing Alyce 3" and then still being able to swat her in the face seems to be according to the rules.

[zFiend]

So if you measure 3" from Alyce's base and say ok she can't be charged by Mei Feng here. 

Mei Feng comes along and pushes Alyce 3" again measured from her base and suddenly can swing at her. 

That is what you are saying?

 

Yeah I didn't get it either.

[DocSchlock]

I don't understand.

What's the issue with Alyce and Mei Feng? You can't charge Alyce unless you have a Close Range of more than 3".

Edit: If it's something like walking BtB, then kicking Alyce away 3", then attacking again, then yes, that's legal, as it falls into the definition of "within" as defined in the rulebook.

[jonahmaul]

So if you measure 3" from Alyce's base and say ok she can't be charged by Mei Feng here. 

Mei Feng comes along and pushes Alyce 3" again measured from her base and suddenly can swing at her. 

That is what you are saying?

I guess this makes sense if there exists a line at 3"

Rusty says don't cross this line and Mei Feing says sit exactly on it. 

Alyce's rule (and I'm just going on what's been said in this thread here, I don't have her card) says that enemies cannot end a charge within 3".  That means they must end 3.1" away because if they end exactly 3" away then that counts as being 'within' 3" as per the rule quoted by Docschlock.  If Mei was in BtB contact with Alyce (because she walked there or pushed, whatever) then hit her trigger which pushes Alyce 3" then she would go exactly 3".  Because this counts as within 3" as per the rule then she can hit her again.  There's no conflict here as Alyce's rule says you can't end a charge within 3" meaning you have to be over 3" away whereas the 3" push leaves you exactly 3" away which counts as within.

 

I'm not surprised that the rule was in there somewhere but we missed it.  Although somewhat abstract at times (cover and Ht for example) everything is pretty well defined in Malifaux which is one of the things I love as there's rarely room for arguments.

[DocSchlock]

 

Alyce's rule (and I'm just going on what's been said in this thread here, I don't have her card) says that enemies cannot end a charge within 3".  That means they must end 3.1" away because if they end exactly 3" away then that counts as being 'within' 3" as per the rule quoted by Docschlock.  If Mei was in BtB contact with Alyce (because she walked there or pushed, whatever) then hit her trigger which pushes Alyce 3" then she would go exactly 3".  Because this counts as within 3" as per the rule then she can hit her again.  There's no conflict here as Alyce's rule says you can't end a charge within 3" meaning you have to be over 3" away whereas the 3" push leaves you exactly 3" away which counts as within.

What am I missing here? Mei Feng didn't charge, so Alyce's rule doesn't matter at all.

Or are you just explaining it more?

Alyce's Rule: Models cannot end a Charge within 3.

[jonahmaul]

What am I missing here? Mei Feng didn't charge, so Alyce's rule doesn't matter at all.

Or are you just explaining it more?

Just explaining more (hopefully correctly!)

[Al Shut]

I have to say I'd go against the consensus. I imagine a 3" push would leave exactly 3" of empty space between the bases so the distance between them, measured from closest point of one base to closest point of the other base, would be 3" + an ridiculously small amount, meaning their no longer "within" 3".

 

Just like the distance between two models in base to base contact isn't actually 0 because they don't share a common point.

 

But an issue like this might really come down to designers intent.

[Ausplosions]

I have to say I'd go against the consensus. I imagine a 3" push would leave exactly 3" of empty space between the bases so the distance between them, measured from closest point of one base to closest point of the other base, would be 3" + an ridiculously small amount, meaning their no longer "within" 3".

Just like the distance between two models in base to base contact isn't actually 0 because they don't share a common point.

But an issue like this might really come down to designers intent.

It's stated explicitly in the rules.

[MasterDisaster]

I have to say I'd go against the consensus. I imagine a 3" push would leave exactly 3" of empty space between the bases so the distance between them, measured from closest point of one base to closest point of the other base, would be 3" + an ridiculously small amount, meaning their no longer "within" 3".

 

Just like the distance between two models in base to base contact isn't actually 0 because they don't share a common point.

 

But an issue like this might really come down to designers intent.

 

Anybody who really worries about those 100th's of an inch really aren't worth playing in my opinion. Malifaux is a game, it's supposed to be fun and anybody who argues over 1/100th of an inch obviously not in it for the fun, they are there to win a victory no matter how petty they have to be to get there. Don't take this as a personal attack, I know there are many people out there who agree with the point you put across. I just feel those particular people aren't worth the 2 hours of gaming time when all you're gonna do is have a raging debate over weather or not you actually are or aren't within 3". 

[Ausplosions]

Anybody who really worries about those 100th's of an inch really aren't worth playing in my opinion. Malifaux is a game, it's supposed to be fun and anybody who argues over 1/100th of an inch obviously not in it for the fun, they are there to win a victory no matter how petty they have to be to get there. Don't take this as a personal attack, I know there are many people out there who agree with the point you put across. I just feel those particular people aren't worth the 2 hours of gaming time when all you're gonna do is have a raging debate over weather or not you actually are or aren't within 3". 

 

 

Those people are also wrong. As this thread and the rulebook itself has shown, if you are at 3" you are within 3". Simple as that.

[MasterDisaster]

Those people are also wrong. As this thread and the rulebook itself has shown, if you are at 3" you are within 3". Simple as that.

 

Oh I completely agree with you. From B2B and a 3" push away is and will always be within 3" as far as I and the rulebook are concerned. 

[Al Shut]

It's not like I would get out the magnifying glass and start arguing over millimeters or fractions of an inch in the midst of a game.

 

It's that even with the absolutely clear definition of 'within' you can come to different conclusions, depending on whether you consider base to base contact to be a distance of 0 or infinitesimal greater than 0. Which to the best of my knowledge isn't addressed anywhere in the rulebook

 

 

I'm not arguing any more or less than anybody else in this thread, just going from a different  premise.

[jonahmaul]

It is addressed in the rulebook though.  It specifically states that if you are at a particular distance then you are within a particular distance.  If Fuhatsu pushes something in base to base 3" away then it should be exactly 3" away, no more no less.  Therefore it is still within 3" as per the definition in the rulebook.  Now our ability to measure exactly is difficult without precision engineered tools and so it ends up being a decision made by the people playing.  But in the example of a 3" push from base to base then there can't logically be any other argument in my opinion.