Issue Command Trigger Timing and OBJECTION!!! (Separate Questions)

[Saracenar]

I'm quite certain I understand how it works, but I want to make sure before I go to a tournament.

 

Lucius' Issue Command Action says: "Target [...] may immediately take a (1) Action [...].

 

There are three triggers; one of which is "After succeeding, the target may take a (1) Interact Action.

What I want to know is, when you does the (1) Interact happen? Before or after the regular (1) Action?

I only ask this because another one of the triggers says: "After succeeding, but before the target takes the (1) Action,

the target gains Focused +1 until the end of the Turn."

 

I take this to mean that the (1) Interact happens after the (1) Action, because although it says "after succeeding", it doesn't specify that it happens before the (1) Action, like with the Focus trigger. And also because the Issue Command action says "immediately".

 

So, how does this work? I'm quite sure I'm right, but I want to know for certain.

 

Also, the Guild Lawyer's OBJECTION!!! Attack Action states "If moderate damage is dealt, the target gains the Slow Condition." - I ask, what does "dealt" mean? If the damage is prevented, I know it is not "suffered", but is it not considered "dealt"?

 

Thanks!

[DocSchlock]

You answered it yourself. If it doesn't say "before the (1) Actions", it occurs after the Action resolves.

"After succeeding" normally occurs after the Action that created the trigger resolves anyway. Look under Triggers in the rulebook. Step 5 is Determine Success and Resolve the Effects, and "after succeeding / damaging / resolving" triggers go off post-Step 5.

EDIT: I'm actually not sure on the Lawyer. Requires a bit more research.

EDIT2: See Entropolous below.
 

[entropolous]

Damage dealt is damage flipped, before prevention and before ignoring.

[Saracenar]

Okay thanks! Yeah I was pretty sure I knew how Subterfuge worked, I just wanted someone to confirm it.

 

Entropolous, so it would in fact apply Slow or Paralysed? I'm on the fence which is why I wanted to ask.

[entropolous]

Yes

Another way to look at it is that the slow and paralyzed are part of the effects of action itself, not a trigger, so slow or paralyzed would be applied before any prevention or reduction would occur.

Btw this was argued back and forth a while a go, trying to find the thread...

Edit: found the thread:

http://wyrd-games.net/community/topic/100342-lawyer-objection-attack-clarification/

[DocSchlock]

Argued back and forth to no actual outcome, but yeah, now that I'm looking at it, it does more imply that dealt is separate from suffer.

Dealt still makes things strange though.

Armor is "Reduce all damage suffered by this model by +1, to a minimum of 1" not  "Reduce all damage dealt to this model by
+1, to a minimum of 1" which would be much clearer. "Suffered by" and "dealt to" are not naturally synonymous phrases, so I'm wondering why Malifaux uses them in such a way.

EDIT: I believe I remember Justin mentioning that using "suffered" across all the rules makes things sound awkward and adds a lot of uneeded text. While I agree, a nice breakdown in an FAQ of terminology or at least a phase list (like damage is flipped, reduction occurs here, damage is suffered here, blah, blah) would be nice.

[Baalbamoth]

ok.... people lied when they said this game is easy to figure out... 

[The Godlyness]

A lot is common senses/easy to pick up. Some interactions are wonky and counterintuitive. But if you have ever played 1.5 or 1 you would be highly highly confused. Was great once you understood it but beforehand eek.

[Ausplosions]

ok.... people lied when they said this game is easy to figure out...

No, they really didn't.

[Clement]

 

Also, the Guild Lawyer's OBJECTION!!! Attack Action states "If moderate damage is dealt, the target gains the Slow Condition." - I ask, what does "dealt" mean? If the damage is prevented, I know it is not "suffered", but is it not considered "dealt"?

 

Thanks!

 

 

This game does well and is easy to grasp if you apply "common sense" to the rules.  The language isn't tight enough for crazy rules lawyer-ing, and that "aggressivly rigorous" use of language was something Wyrd was trying to escape in M2E.  In general, if the word in question ("dealt" in your case) is not SPECIFICALLY DEFINED in the text, then you apply English to it.  

 

As such, the way the lawyer's damage works is if you come up with moderate damage using the ability, they also get slow, and if you get severe damage, they also get paralyze.  If the enemy has armor, you don't care.  If the enemy does damage prevention, you don't care.  You Dealt the damage, they then prevented/reduced/whatevered it.

[Ausplosions]

This game does well and is easy to grasp if you apply "common sense" to the rules. The language isn't tight enough for crazy rules lawyer-ing, and that "aggressivly rigorous" use of language was something Wyrd was trying to escape in M2E. In general, if the word in question ("dealt" in your case) is not SPECIFICALLY DEFINED in the text, then you apply English to it.

As such, the way the lawyer's damage works is if you come up with moderate damage using the ability, they also get slow, and if you get severe damage, they also get paralyze. If the enemy has armor, you don't care. If the enemy does damage prevention, you don't care. You Dealt the damage, they then prevented/reduced/whatevered it.

I would disagree and rule it the other way. You FLIPPED moderate/severe/whatever.

If they reduced it to 0 you have dealt nothing

[Clement]

Makes sense to me.  Phone postings are always tricky.

[The Godlyness]

I agree with you ausplosions but a counter argument is if they flip weak moderate or severe damage they do is 2/2/2 which is weak moderate and severe. So doing 2 damage is dealing severe or moderate. So flipping weak. Gives you slow and paralyze.

Or we can go with flipped card is the effects it apply which is slow or paralyze.

I still say if if you deal 0 you get nothing but severe was flipped so apply the additional effect. Would like an faq for this and Molly tbh.

[Clement]

I agree with you ausplosions but a counter argument is if they flip weak moderate or severe damage they do is 2/2/2 which is weak moderate and severe. So doing 2 damage is dealing severe or moderate. So flipping weak. Gives you slow and paralyze.

Or we can go with flipped card is the effects it apply which is slow or paralyze.

I still say if if you deal 0 you get nothing but severe was flipped so apply the additional effect. Would like an faq for this and Molly tbh.

 

 

Just so I understand your argument, you're saying that if I flip weak damage, specifically because the number for weak damage is the same as severe damage, I should treat it as such and apply paralyze?

 

I don't think the rules could even kind of support that.

[Ausplosions]

No. Not at all.

[The Godlyness]

you did deal severe(2) yep did you flip weak yep (2) see you dealt severe and weak and moderate. 

 

see how that could be read.  mind let me be VERY CLEAR. i do not believe  it works that way. but the wording could be said that way.

 

if the wording said flipped severe moderate etc. would be better.

 

dealt 2 winning right.

[Tapdancer]

as was pointed out in the previous thread dealing a damage level weak/moderate or severe does not require the damage to be >0 there are numerous examples of a damage types having a native 0 value.

[Saracenar]

Just came back to this, sorry for not returning sooner!

I agree that "dealt" does not appear to be defined anywhere. There are a number of clearer terms that could have been used to easily decide this; if it said "If you flipped moderate/severe blah blah blah" that would be obvious. If it said "after damaging" or "suffered damage" that would be obvious. But "dealt" to me means more like you are handing it out.

There are a couple of instances in the rules were "dealing" damage is mentioned: Under "The Damage Flip" on page 46 of the big book, it says "To perform a damage flip the model dealing the damage flips the top card of its deck..." then on the next page, under "Jokers and the Damage Flip" it says "The Black Joker always deals no damage..." and "The Red Joker always deals an amount of damage equal to the Severe plus the Weak damage..."

So to me that is implying that you are dealing damage when you flip a card or cards and determine whether the card being used is Weak, Moderate or Severe.

In the section just below, "Damage Prevention" it says "After determining how much damage the Master or Henchman model would take, but before applying the damage..."

So my view of the damage flip would be this:

 

1. Flip a card. Determine the value of the card.

2. Based on the value, deal Weak, Moderate or Severe damage.

3. Damage is reduced by abilities such as Armour.

4. Before applying damage, prevention flips can be made.

5. If preventing, flip a card. Determine the value of the card.

6. Based on the value, reduce the damage dealt by the Weak, Moderate or Severe amount.

7. Apply whatever damage was not prevented.

8. The damage is suffered and wounds are lowered accordingly.

9. "After damaging" effects are resolved.

If this timing structure is correct, then the damage has been dealt way back at step 2. This is of course all my own reasoning based on what I have read in the rules. I'm a lot less on the fence about this now than I was before, though.

 

Any more thoughts on this?

[Dirial]

Wasn't there something in the FAQ about the Dumb Luck trigger which uses the "suffers" wording? If I remember correctly, the given Gremlin suffers half of what was flipped and doesn't care about reduction, armor and the likes.

 

Which would mean that your timing structure is not entirely correct, specifically point 8.

[Bengt]

Use of "dealt" or "suffer" isn't significant. You decide what happens based on the priority order of triggers and abilities, not exact words.

 

Page 32 & 46

 

Talents with Immediate or no qualification
Action text
Talents with After

 

At each talent step

1. Triggers
   1. Defending model
   2. Acting model
2. Abilities
   1. Acting model
   2. Defending model
   3. Other models belonging to First Player in the order of their choosing.
   4. Other models belonging to Second Player in the order of their choosing.

[Saracenar]

I did read through the FAQ before my post but I must admit I skipped over the Dumb Luck question, which upon reading it now, is kind of silly because "deal" is in the first line, haha. Once again we see the clear division between damage flipped and damage taken.

Okay Bengt, so the Lawyer's Slow and Paralysed stuff would come under Action text. It's not a trigger but I'm still uncertain when/if the Slow/Paralysed is applied. The timing structure on page 46 is specifically talking about Abilities and Triggers, which are different to Actions. You haven't really said whether you think the Slow/Paralysed would be applied in the case where the damage is prevented, could you state that please?

[Bengt]

I would read OBJECTION!!! as one of those cases where you have to do damage to apply the conditions. If it always happened it should have said "flipped" instead of "dealt" or "suffered".

[Saracenar]

But what are you basing that on? Just the fact that it doesn't say "flipped"? It doesn't say "suffered" either. Flipped and suffered are definitive terms that are clear to interpret. As I've pointed out, "dealt" isn't explicitly defined.

 

The way I see it, it's just like The Rat Catcher's Rusty Trap or the Peackeeper's Chain Spear, except that the effect it causes differs based on the damage category. What I'm thinking is that the "if Mod/Severe damage is dealt" part is just the mechanism for determining which effect to apply, rather than determine if anything is applied at all.

 

But of course this is all just my interpretation.

[Bengt]

Oh, I don't think it's crystal clear.

 

If OBJECTION!!! said "flipped" it would be clear that it always happened.

If an "after damaging" clause was used it would be clear that is only happened if you did more than 0 damage.

 

The current wording is kind of iffy but since damage is mentioned I lean towards the "have to do damage" interpretation.

 

I don't see why you consider "suffer" a game term with a strict definition, it isn't used at all on p 46. Sure it's generally used with damage spreads, but it also used in places where it means something different, e.g. the whole Dumb Luck issue.

[Dirial]

I tend to agree with Saracenar on this issue, but I also agree that "flipped" would have been the better wording. (Although the Jokers would have to addressed then... sigh.)

[Saracenar]

Well, what I meant was that, "suffered" is pretty clear in it's meaning. As is "flipped".

I like to be able to convince the TO at the tournament I'm attending tomorrow that it does apply even when prevented, but I get the feeling it might be a long shot, despite me now definitely leaning closer to one side than the other. I think what we need is an addition to the FAQ, listing and clearing up all of these sorts of terms once and for all.

 

Dirial, if the Red Joker is flipped, it deals Severe and Weak damage. OBJECTION!!! simply says, "If Severe damage is dealt..." which it is in that situation.