Saracenar

Hey guys, this came up in a game recently. I was facing Dreamer and he had the upgrade that allows him to draw and then discard three cards instead of two when burning a stone for cards after drawing a control hand. If Dreamer is buried when drawing a control hand, if the controlling player burns a stone for cards, do they still benefit from the upgrade? Likewise, for other models like the Doppelgänger with Ill Omens still allow the player to cheat the initiative flip while buried? None of these upgrades make references to requiring the model to be in play, like for instance, Arcane Reservoir does, and being buried means you are not considered as in play for effects that refer. So in the game I was playing, I ruled that the player could still make use of the increased draw from the upgrade while Dreamer was buried. Thanks!

I'm in, will pre-pay today!

I'm in! Hopefully my character became a little better at defending himself. Or didn't die.

And if the source of Defensive doesn't state when it ends, it ends at the Upkeep step, per page 61. For additional clarity, I think the link you are making between Defensive and Defensive Stance is unnecessary. When the Ten Thunders Brother gets his trigger, the trigger doesn't state that he immediately takes the Defensive Stance action without spending AP but counting as if he spent 1, it just gives him the Defensive condition. If that were the case, then you would reference the Defensive Stance action on page 39. But since you are only gaining the condition, all you need to worry about is the actual text on the Defensive condition, which is the + to all Df duels bit. The information about the Defensive Stance action isn't important in this example.

Well, it never came up in the tournament. The Lawyer killed Bete Noire in two separate games (like, killed for real), but otherwise never attacked a model that could prevent. Still, I'd like to see an official ruling the FAQ for some finality on this.

Sorry, but it's pretty clear to me. The stats for the Guard Sergeant reflect the old Guild Guard Captain model (he has an axe, his charge is lower than average because he is fat). The stats for Dashel reflect the old Drill Sergeant model (he has a baton, he has the On Yer Feet ability, among others which the old Drill Sergeant used to have). Not trying to sound rude, just stating it how I see it, and that personally I'm a bit put-off by it. I guess the only thing that's going to bother me is the stat cards, since I've got the whole metal crew painted and based so I'm not going to get the plastics anyway. I'll be curious to see how the "actual" Guard Sergeants look.

The old metal model is definitely fat. His gut is hanging out from under his shirt. That's what I was referring to. Don't get me wrong, I like the model. I just don't like that they are clearly selling the Guard Sergeant model with "Dashel" taped to his forehead (or rather, tucked into his belt).

Well, what I meant was that, "suffered" is pretty clear in it's meaning. As is "flipped". I like to be able to convince the TO at the tournament I'm attending tomorrow that it does apply even when prevented, but I get the feeling it might be a long shot, despite me now definitely leaning closer to one side than the other. I think what we need is an addition to the FAQ, listing and clearing up all of these sorts of terms once and for all. Dirial, if the Red Joker is flipped, it deals Severe and Weak damage. OBJECTION!!! simply says, "If Severe damage is dealt..." which it is in that situation.

Well, I have the old metal crew and I'm certainly not going to use the fat guy with only an axe and a pistol as Dashel and the guy with a baton as the Sergeant. I thought it was pretty clear during the beta that the old Drill Sergeant model became Dashel and the old Guild Guard Captain became the Guard Sergeant. Seems odd they'd decide to make Dashel fat considering the original model with the baton was not in the slightest bit overweight. Yes, I see the Baton under his belt but it just seems silly to me. It's pretty clear that the model with the Axe should be the Sergeant, the model whose stat card clearly states he has an axe.

But what are you basing that on? Just the fact that it doesn't say "flipped"? It doesn't say "suffered" either. Flipped and suffered are definitive terms that are clear to interpret. As I've pointed out, "dealt" isn't explicitly defined. The way I see it, it's just like The Rat Catcher's Rusty Trap or the Peackeeper's Chain Spear, except that the effect it causes differs based on the damage category. What I'm thinking is that the "if Mod/Severe damage is dealt" part is just the mechanism for determining which effect to apply, rather than determine if anything is applied at all. But of course this is all just my interpretation.

This was on the A Wyrd Place Facebook page, not sure where the original came from. It's clearly meant to be the Sergeant; why would Dashel use a Baton instead of an Axe, especially when the cards say one has a Baton and the other has an Axe?

I'm not sure who was in charge of doing the boxes, but they got the models for Captain Dashel and the Guard Sergeant mixed up. It is clearly the Guard Sergeant in that box, since Dashel's card lists him as having a Baton and the Sergeant's card lists him as having a Breaching Axe. So...that's a little awkward. I hope the art on the stat cards isn't switched around as well! Has no one else noticed this?

I did read through the FAQ before my post but I must admit I skipped over the Dumb Luck question, which upon reading it now, is kind of silly because "deal" is in the first line, haha. Once again we see the clear division between damage flipped and damage taken. Okay Bengt, so the Lawyer's Slow and Paralysed stuff would come under Action text. It's not a trigger but I'm still uncertain when/if the Slow/Paralysed is applied. The timing structure on page 46 is specifically talking about Abilities and Triggers, which are different to Actions. You haven't really said whether you think the Slow/Paralysed would be applied in the case where the damage is prevented, could you state that please?

Just came back to this, sorry for not returning sooner! I agree that "dealt" does not appear to be defined anywhere. There are a number of clearer terms that could have been used to easily decide this; if it said "If you flipped moderate/severe blah blah blah" that would be obvious. If it said "after damaging" or "suffered damage" that would be obvious. But "dealt" to me means more like you are handing it out. There are a couple of instances in the rules were "dealing" damage is mentioned: Under "The Damage Flip" on page 46 of the big book, it says "To perform a damage flip the model dealing the damage flips the top card of its deck..." then on the next page, under "Jokers and the Damage Flip" it says "The Black Joker always deals no damage..." and "The Red Joker always deals an amount of damage equal to the Severe plus the Weak damage..." So to me that is implying that you are dealing damage when you flip a card or cards and determine whether the card being used is Weak, Moderate or Severe. In the section just below, "Damage Prevention" it says "After determining how much damage the Master or Henchman model would take, but before applying the damage..." So my view of the damage flip would be this: 1. Flip a card. Determine the value of the card. 2. Based on the value, deal Weak, Moderate or Severe damage. 3. Damage is reduced by abilities such as Armour. 4. Before applying damage, prevention flips can be made. 5. If preventing, flip a card. Determine the value of the card. 6. Based on the value, reduce the damage dealt by the Weak, Moderate or Severe amount. 7. Apply whatever damage was not prevented. 8. The damage is suffered and wounds are lowered accordingly. 9. "After damaging" effects are resolved. If this timing structure is correct, then the damage has been dealt way back at step 2. This is of course all my own reasoning based on what I have read in the rules. I'm a lot less on the fence about this now than I was before, though. Any more thoughts on this?

Okay thanks! Yeah I was pretty sure I knew how Subterfuge worked, I just wanted someone to confirm it. Entropolous, so it would in fact apply Slow or Paralysed? I'm on the fence which is why I wanted to ask.