Saracenar

Hey guys, this came up in a game recently. I was facing Dreamer and he had the upgrade that allows him to draw and then discard three cards instead of two when burning a stone for cards after drawing a control hand. If Dreamer is buried when drawing a control hand, if the controlling player burns a stone for cards, do they still benefit from the upgrade? Likewise, for other models like the Doppelgänger with Ill Omens still allow the player to cheat the initiative flip while buried? None of these upgrades make references to requiring the model to be in play, like for instance, Arcane Reservoir does, and being buried means you are not considered as in play for effects that refer. So in the game I was playing, I ruled that the player could still make use of the increased draw from the upgrade while Dreamer was buried. Thanks!

I'm in, will pre-pay today!

I'm in! Hopefully my character became a little better at defending himself. Or didn't die.

And if the source of Defensive doesn't state when it ends, it ends at the Upkeep step, per page 61. For additional clarity, I think the link you are making between Defensive and Defensive Stance is unnecessary. When the Ten Thunders Brother gets his trigger, the trigger doesn't state that he immediately takes the Defensive Stance action without spending AP but counting as if he spent 1, it just gives him the Defensive condition. If that were the case, then you would reference the Defensive Stance action on page 39. But since you are only gaining the condition, all you need to worry about is the actual text on the Defensive condition, which is the + to all Df duels bit. The information about the Defensive Stance action isn't important in this example.

Well, it never came up in the tournament. The Lawyer killed Bete Noire in two separate games (like, killed for real), but otherwise never attacked a model that could prevent. Still, I'd like to see an official ruling the FAQ for some finality on this.

Sorry, but it's pretty clear to me. The stats for the Guard Sergeant reflect the old Guild Guard Captain model (he has an axe, his charge is lower than average because he is fat). The stats for Dashel reflect the old Drill Sergeant model (he has a baton, he has the On Yer Feet ability, among others which the old Drill Sergeant used to have). Not trying to sound rude, just stating it how I see it, and that personally I'm a bit put-off by it. I guess the only thing that's going to bother me is the stat cards, since I've got the whole metal crew painted and based so I'm not going to get the plastics anyway. I'll be curious to see how the "actual" Guard Sergeants look.

The old metal model is definitely fat. His gut is hanging out from under his shirt. That's what I was referring to. Don't get me wrong, I like the model. I just don't like that they are clearly selling the Guard Sergeant model with "Dashel" taped to his forehead (or rather, tucked into his belt).

Well, what I meant was that, "suffered" is pretty clear in it's meaning. As is "flipped". I like to be able to convince the TO at the tournament I'm attending tomorrow that it does apply even when prevented, but I get the feeling it might be a long shot, despite me now definitely leaning closer to one side than the other. I think what we need is an addition to the FAQ, listing and clearing up all of these sorts of terms once and for all. Dirial, if the Red Joker is flipped, it deals Severe and Weak damage. OBJECTION!!! simply says, "If Severe damage is dealt..." which it is in that situation.

Well, I have the old metal crew and I'm certainly not going to use the fat guy with only an axe and a pistol as Dashel and the guy with a baton as the Sergeant. I thought it was pretty clear during the beta that the old Drill Sergeant model became Dashel and the old Guild Guard Captain became the Guard Sergeant. Seems odd they'd decide to make Dashel fat considering the original model with the baton was not in the slightest bit overweight. Yes, I see the Baton under his belt but it just seems silly to me. It's pretty clear that the model with the Axe should be the Sergeant, the model whose stat card clearly states he has an axe.

But what are you basing that on? Just the fact that it doesn't say "flipped"? It doesn't say "suffered" either. Flipped and suffered are definitive terms that are clear to interpret. As I've pointed out, "dealt" isn't explicitly defined. The way I see it, it's just like The Rat Catcher's Rusty Trap or the Peackeeper's Chain Spear, except that the effect it causes differs based on the damage category. What I'm thinking is that the "if Mod/Severe damage is dealt" part is just the mechanism for determining which effect to apply, rather than determine if anything is applied at all. But of course this is all just my interpretation.

This was on the A Wyrd Place Facebook page, not sure where the original came from. It's clearly meant to be the Sergeant; why would Dashel use a Baton instead of an Axe, especially when the cards say one has a Baton and the other has an Axe?

I'm not sure who was in charge of doing the boxes, but they got the models for Captain Dashel and the Guard Sergeant mixed up. It is clearly the Guard Sergeant in that box, since Dashel's card lists him as having a Baton and the Sergeant's card lists him as having a Breaching Axe. So...that's a little awkward. I hope the art on the stat cards isn't switched around as well! Has no one else noticed this?

I did read through the FAQ before my post but I must admit I skipped over the Dumb Luck question, which upon reading it now, is kind of silly because "deal" is in the first line, haha. Once again we see the clear division between damage flipped and damage taken. Okay Bengt, so the Lawyer's Slow and Paralysed stuff would come under Action text. It's not a trigger but I'm still uncertain when/if the Slow/Paralysed is applied. The timing structure on page 46 is specifically talking about Abilities and Triggers, which are different to Actions. You haven't really said whether you think the Slow/Paralysed would be applied in the case where the damage is prevented, could you state that please?

Just came back to this, sorry for not returning sooner! I agree that "dealt" does not appear to be defined anywhere. There are a number of clearer terms that could have been used to easily decide this; if it said "If you flipped moderate/severe blah blah blah" that would be obvious. If it said "after damaging" or "suffered damage" that would be obvious. But "dealt" to me means more like you are handing it out. There are a couple of instances in the rules were "dealing" damage is mentioned: Under "The Damage Flip" on page 46 of the big book, it says "To perform a damage flip the model dealing the damage flips the top card of its deck..." then on the next page, under "Jokers and the Damage Flip" it says "The Black Joker always deals no damage..." and "The Red Joker always deals an amount of damage equal to the Severe plus the Weak damage..." So to me that is implying that you are dealing damage when you flip a card or cards and determine whether the card being used is Weak, Moderate or Severe. In the section just below, "Damage Prevention" it says "After determining how much damage the Master or Henchman model would take, but before applying the damage..." So my view of the damage flip would be this: 1. Flip a card. Determine the value of the card. 2. Based on the value, deal Weak, Moderate or Severe damage. 3. Damage is reduced by abilities such as Armour. 4. Before applying damage, prevention flips can be made. 5. If preventing, flip a card. Determine the value of the card. 6. Based on the value, reduce the damage dealt by the Weak, Moderate or Severe amount. 7. Apply whatever damage was not prevented. 8. The damage is suffered and wounds are lowered accordingly. 9. "After damaging" effects are resolved. If this timing structure is correct, then the damage has been dealt way back at step 2. This is of course all my own reasoning based on what I have read in the rules. I'm a lot less on the fence about this now than I was before, though. Any more thoughts on this?

Okay thanks! Yeah I was pretty sure I knew how Subterfuge worked, I just wanted someone to confirm it. Entropolous, so it would in fact apply Slow or Paralysed? I'm on the fence which is why I wanted to ask.

I'm quite certain I understand how it works, but I want to make sure before I go to a tournament. Lucius' Issue Command Action says: "Target [...] may immediately take a (1) Action [...]. There are three triggers; one of which is "After succeeding, the target may take a (1) Interact Action. What I want to know is, when you does the (1) Interact happen? Before or after the regular (1) Action? I only ask this because another one of the triggers says: "After succeeding, but before the target takes the (1) Action, the target gains Focused +1 until the end of the Turn." I take this to mean that the (1) Interact happens after the (1) Action, because although it says "after succeeding", it doesn't specify that it happens before the (1) Action, like with the Focus trigger. And also because the Issue Command action says "immediately". So, how does this work? I'm quite sure I'm right, but I want to know for certain. Also, the Guild Lawyer's OBJECTION!!! Attack Action states "If moderate damage is dealt, the target gains the Slow Condition." - I ask, what does "dealt" mean? If the damage is prevented, I know it is not "suffered", but is it not considered "dealt"? Thanks!

Same here. +2 Df all the time while within 3" of another Guild Guard, and + to Disengaging Strikes.

Depends on what you're charging and what else is nearby, but yeah, he's no slouch in melee.

I always take Witch Hunt and I find it comes in use almost every game. You can play Samael two ways, and I find myself generally going with the second. You can have him activate early and spam the Burning to drain cards from your opponent's hand or set up for Sonnia if they let it through. Or you can leave him until the later stages of the turn and, as others have said, take advantage of the fact that your opponent has probably used their hand for other things or has saved cards for Sam, in which case everything before him has been hindered. I find that, ignoring cover is really worth the Ca 5. And what's wrong with 4 damage for 1 AP? That's pretty decent. Hit someone twice and 8 damage is enough to kill just about anything. You really do need to play with a fair bit of terrain. If you can't target anyone with Witch Hunt, your opponent is either deliberately staying away from terrain, which is a plus for you, or you're not playing with enough. Seriously. I rarely am in a situation where my intended target stays out of/away from terrain to avoid Sam, because they are too afraid of getting blasted by Sonnia or charged by Witchlings. Sometimes, Sam will have to move to get into range. If he has to move, I find Burn them Out is more effective against targets in cover than simply shooting (unless of course that target is already burning). If I'm going to shoot someone, I'll generally rapid fire, because Sam goes after big targets with his gun. He's just as much of an intimidator as he is a killer. Even if he doesn't kill a lot of stuff, it probably means your opponent is avoiding him, in which case he is great for area denial. Set him up in some good cover with range on the centreline of the board, and depending on the strategy you're golden. ... As to the Witchling Production line, I find in my general crew I am able to summon between 2-4 Witchlings per game. The core of the crew is: Sonnia -Reincarnation -Either Imprint or Counterspell 6-7 Pool Samael -Witch Hunt Purifying Flame 2-4 Witchlings In a 41SS game, which is what I usually play. There's space for additional models depending on how many Witchlings you start with, but I have begun the game with 2 a couple of times and still easily summoned 2-3 over the course of the game. I could however see lists like the ones proposed so far increase the summoning to 4-8, if you really concentrated on it. Of course, it depends on how many and which models your opponent brings. For me, summoning is about focus-firing. You pick a target, give it burning, kill it, summon and move on. I try to leave Sonnia and Samael for the end of the turn unless Sonnia is in a position to spread burning or really wreck face from the get-go. Then the rest of the crew can do the killing and she just needs to be in the right position to drop cards or stones. I'm keen to try out the Handler and will definitely give her a go when I come back from Lucius. Also interested in the Specialist but I need to get the model first.

I got schooled by Pandora just last week. It was sort of a teaching game but Pandora basically spanked my crew. I had a pretty standard Lucius list, since I wanted to give it a go and see how it went: Lucius -Surprisingly Loyal -Hidden Assets -Useless Duplications 6 Pool Dashel Scribe Lawyer 3 Guild Guard It was only 35 stones, because again, it was teaching. Also, the schemes were fairly killy, and I think Lucius excels at higher points levels where he has more things to order about. Here's a few things I learned. It was my first time against Pandora. -The Scribe is useless, because almost her entire crew targets Wp, and just about the only thing he is good for is that +1 Df. -The Lawyer was okay, but I think a Guild Sergeant would have been better, for the Wp boost. His + to Horror Duels is great for Commanding Presence, but the Sergeant does the same on a wider level, since Horror Duels are Wp duels. -Something with a little more punch would have been helpful. The Guild Guard, when used purely to fight, waste a lot of cards but still don't do a lot, when they have to get through Terrifying, Manipulative and high Df stats. I literally could not hit Kade once throughout the entire game. For reference, my opponent took approximately this: Pandora -The Box Opens 2-3 Pool Candy -Fears Given Form -Nexus of Power Kade Poltergeist 2 Sorrows The crew practically played itself against me. Thinking I'm going to have to step up Lucius' game. He definitely excels at scheme marker based schemes over killy ones, but it depends on the crew.

You've just got to play carefully with him; keep him in cover and away from the action, but close enough to shoot or burn when he needs to. Use Witchlings to tie up threats and distract from him and/or take another heavy hitter to take the heat from him. If you find though that he's just not working for you, you could always swap him out for the Freikorps Specialist, I guess.

I always take Sam, and I always take his upgrade. Even if he doesn't kill a lot, he is a constant presence on the board to be feared. You get burning, and he will get you. The opponent has to be mindful of him at all times, because even if you're not burning, he can be pretty devastating. I tend to hang him back a little at maximum range, preferably inside a forest for soft cover. Depending on the game he can be great just sitting back keeping people away from him. Spamming Burn 'em Out is pretty good for hitting targets in cover or in combat. It's generally a guaranteed 4 damage and allows Sonnia line of sight to the target. If you don't want to take the upgrade, or he is near a bunch of enemies, he can instead spam Flaming Bullets. It's a great ability to use at the start of the turn, although I generally leave him and Sonnia 'til the end unless they are in a good position to kill something already.

Just keep in mind that the game is not as well balanced at lower stone levels than 40. 35 might not seem like much, but some crews it means a vital component, that extra upgrade or a couple more soulstones. While I've found Sonnia and co. to be pretty powerful, especially when you play Reincarnation right and spawn a Witching every turn, I've often lost games to more skilled opponents. The big thing with 2nd Edition (Wave 1 at least), I've found, is that generally models are more killy and the game is more brutal and unforgiving (which is why we dropped from six turns to five). Once you get used to playing and you understand your crew really well you can do horrible horrible things to your opponent. But they can also do the same to you. Granted, with Sonnia against Lynch, you can definitely make it harder for him and Huggy. Disrupt Magic and Counterspell Aura are very powerful against the crew, and combined with the condition removal of Witchlings it's hard to get Brilliance out. Damage from burning and Sonnia herself ignores Incorporeal, so you're just relying on Terrifying and prevention for defence. I'd say three Illuminated probably isn't the best choice (I'd take two at most, given their cost). You want a good cost spread of minions, which is where Depleted will come into play soon. Also remember that you can branch out into Neverborn and/or Ten Thunders if you don't mind playing a less themed crew. The main thing with Sonnia is to kill Witchlings before they can get to you, do what you can to avoid burning, and kill Samael quickly; if you can get something on him, he will go down pretty easily. If you don't kill him though, he'll kill you. Sonnia is good, especially with those + twists against high Wp, but if you can force her to have to come to you to get line of sight then she is both exposing herself and "wasting" AP moving rather than casting.

It's not just meant to die. It's a disruptor, mostly. By throwing it in combat with enemy masters/henchmen, it prevents them from shooting, using soulstones, and can tie them up with a decent of Ml 5. If they ignore it, cool , it will just follow them around or give them burning, continuing to disrupt. If they kill it, they're wasting AP and they get burning afterwards, forcing them to take damage (potentially lots of damage if Sonnia or Samael are in range, and they should be) or waste more AP getting rid of it. One thing I've thought of doing and tried a couple of times is giving the Flame Everburning and hitting it with a Witchling on the first turn. Now it has burning for the rest of the game and won't take any damage. With Incorporeal, it can then run off to do it's disruption stuff wherever it wants, and then Sonna can blast off/shoot into combat through walls without having to target the enemy first. I've only done it twice, I think, and the second time really made my opponent waste a lot of AP across multiple models that they could have spent on getting VPs, even though they managed to kill it without taking burning (McMourning pushing around).

Just get him into the middle of the table, near as many enemies as possible. Then, watch as your opponent's face twists as they try to decide if it's worth discarding to cheat, and wince when they do. If you place him near key pieces that have to activate early, you can effectively drain an opponent's hand after two activations. His other abilities are somewhat situational, but Lethargy is decent, especially as an additional defensive ability, and Bore to Tears with YAWWWN triggered on a Master can be fatal, but again, can be situational. Luck's Turning is cool, but as of yet I haven't had it do a lot for me, as I tend to activate Tannen last. To keep him alive, present bigger threats. Keep him behind or at least near the Hungering Darkness, for example. That way as the HD wails on stuff, forcing your opponent to cheat, they quickly run out of cards, and you are free to do whatever you want against the rest of their crew with relative ease. Leave him to activate until later in the turn, so you get the most out of Pitiful. If he is close enough to the models targeting him he can give them a hard time getting a hit in. Immune to Influence also helps quite a bit. I played against a Lynch crew today in a 30ss game. The list was: Jakob Lynch Hungering Darkness Mr. Graves 2 Beckoners 1 Depleted 1 Illuminated It worked pretty well. Although it was a game more in the spirit of fun and reintroducing an old player to the game, they did well (with my advice as we went). There was plenty of synergy, and having two Beckoners was really good. Although I realise he did some things wrong, I think that setup could be pretty decent. He did give up a scheme for additional soulstones, however. Remember that that is always an option. For the list you proposed, D-A-C, I'd drop a Depleted to make up the soulstones.