Nix and the Red Joker Part Deux

[The Godlyness]

ok for reference

 

Weakness: If an enemy model within 3 would deal Severe damage, it deals Moderate damage instead.

 

People are saying that Nix with this Sweet abilty Drop the Red joker's Damage from Severe+weak to Moderate+weak. now i wish to debate the thought process of why they believe this.

 

here is the damage chart of what things do. now in the book its a chart. i cant make a chart my skills are poor.

 

Black joker  No Damage
1 to 5           Weak
6 to 10         Moderate
11 to 13       Severe
Red Joker   Severe + Weak

 

 

Now if i flip a 11-13 against Nix my Severe damage i would deal is reduced to moderate. seems pretty straight forward.

 

Now if i flip the Red joker i do Severe+Weak. which Clearly by itself is not Severe any more but a sum of 2 different Damage profiles.

 

now some things about the red joker and how it affects things since it is a Unique card and only one of in the deck

 

When a Red Joker is flipped it may always be chosen (except when a Black Joker is also present) regardless of any    to the Damage flip. The Red Joker always deals an amount of damage equal to the Severe plus the Weak damage. Damage that is staged down (such as extra models hit by blast damage) becomes Moderate.

 

Now to further extrapolate on the red joker

 

As well,the Red Joker's damage is stepped down to Moderate (not Severe) damage.

 

Now why would the Rulebook the object where we take guidance from tell us this line if the Red joker was not in its own separate category.

 

But wait godly how do you do blasts if you not really doing severe damage. Glad you asked.

 

the red joker takes the Severe damage Profile of the weapon and adds it to the Weak damage profile.

 

That means if the Severe damage had blasts in its profile then so does the red joker. so a 2/3 :blast /5 :blast   would deal 7 :blast

if it flipped the red joker. then since the Rulebook tells us to Stage down to moderate not severe and ignore any blasts from that profile the secondary targets would take 3damage each

 

So in Closing Severe damage is not  Severe+Weak.  to further clarify Severe =/= Severe+Weak.

 

Any questions?

[hypoking]

Wtb m2.5

 

Edit: On a less facetious note, if the red joker is just a fancy severe are we counting the black joker as fancy weak? Cause if so that's also going to have some implications.

[The Godlyness]

Leve's Unnatural Wasting is "After flipping or cheating moderate or severe damage".

Malifaux Rat is "Increase the value of Blighted to +2 if Moderate damage is flipped or cheated and +3 if Severe is flipped or cheated"

These are deff red joker unqualified. You neither flipped or cheated an 11-13. You flipped or cheated the red joker. So no blight. Or wasting.

[DocSchlock]

 

Edit: On a less facetious note, if the red joker is just a fancy severe are we counting the black joker as fancy weak? Cause if so that's also going to have some implications.

Black Joker is explicitly 0 damage. It's not given any other category, nor can it be construed as any other category.

The question is strictly in regards to the "Severe + Weak" clause for the Red Joker -- whether the Red Joker counts as Severe when Severe is mentioned by the rules.

There is no correct answer until an FAQ.

[Math Mathonwy]

Does someone really, honestly, believe that the FAQ is going to say that Red Joker is it's own damage category and stuff that works on Severe won't work with a Red Joker? Honestly? I would be willing to bet rather a large sum of money that the FAQ will rule this that Red Joker is Severe + Weak damage and not a new damage category that does an amount of damage that is the combined total of severe + weak but does not count as severe damage for triggers or abilities.

[Icemyn]

Do you really honestly believe that the Black Joker is not its own damage category?
There is a chart and everything. 

Do I think it will end up getting ruled the way you expect? Yes. 

That does not mean the rules don't support this interpretation. 

The FAQ could just as easily say that the red Joker is it's own damage category that counts as both severe and weak for triggers and abilities. 

[Math Mathonwy]

Do I think it will end up getting ruled the way you expect? Yes.

Yup.

That does not mean the rules don't support this interpretation.

Certainly. The rules of M2 aren't very tightly written (cf. all rules on cards have an implied "in play" in them while the rules in the rulebook don't and this isn't spelled out anywhere) but if you have to rule it somehow in a game situation, will you rule it as it is extremely likely to be rules in the FAQ, rule the oppposite or, I dunno, stop the game and go home?

[Icemyn]

Certainly. The rules of M2 aren't very tightly written (cf. all rules on cards have an implied "in play" in them while the rules in the rulebook don't and this isn't spelled out anywhere) but if you have to rule it somehow in a game situation, will you rule it as it is extremely likely to be rules in the FAQ, rule the oppposite or, I dunno, stop the game and go home?

This line of thought always irks me in a rules forum. I can't for the life of me fathom why anyone would ever bring it up. 

This is a place where the rules as written are discussed so they can be made more clear or fixed if it comes to that.

No one is implying that because the rules aren't perfect that you quit the game. 

[Clement]

This conversation also would have implications for blast damage even without nix. If you flip a red joker on the damage flip, how much damage gets applied to the blasts?

[Bengt]

This conversation also would have implications for blast damage even without nix. If you flip a red joker on the damage flip, how much damage gets applied to the blasts?

That is something that is explicitly stated in rules (moderate).

[The Godlyness]

it makes me wonder why i quote the rulebook. 

 

instead of the red joker stepping down to severe the rules state that it is stepped to moderate instead. which reiterates that it is its own category.

[Ausplosions]

it makes me wonder why i quote the rulebook.

instead of the red joker stepping down to severe the rules state that it is stepped to moderate instead. which reiterates that it is its own category.

You've said this a couple of time. It makes no sense.

[Clement]

it makes me wonder why i quote the rulebook.

instead of the red joker stepping down to severe the rules state that it is stepped to moderate instead. which reiterates that it is its own category.

I did not read your topic as closely as I should have, and blame the mobile interface and my own laziness. Mea culpa.

[The Godlyness]

You've said this a couple of time. It makes no sense.

Quoting the rulebook? or red joker stepping down a category?

 

cause dem da rules dere hoss

[Ausplosions]

Quoting the rulebook? or red joker stepping down a category?

cause dem da rules dere hoss

It isn't an argument that proves your point.

[Bengt]

Just musing here, but if Red Joker was its own category, wouldn't it make more sense for it step down to Severe? It stepping down Moderate makes it feel more like Red Joker is actually a Severe category hit with some extra bells and whistles. 

[Ausplosions]

Just musing here, but if Red Joker was its own category, wouldn't it make more sense for it step down to Severe? It stepping down Moderate makes it feel more like Red Joker is actually a Severe category hit with some extra bells and whistles.

Exactly.

[solkan]

So I was trying to figure out whether 'Curses!  I flipped a red joker!' would be a plausible reaction (because you got what would normally be the best damage flip possible, but just ruined your chances of triggering an effect), and then it occurred to me that if you own model hoping to cheat the damage to nothing.

 

The "I've got a two in my hand, and this card of the suite I need here.  So I can attack my own model (or even some fragile model on the other side), cheat the suite, and then cheat the damage so I don't kill it." scenario.

 

So "The Red Joker laughs at your attempt to trigger your ability" is entirely plausible. 

[Math Mathonwy]

This line of thought always irks me in a rules forum. I can't for the life of me fathom why anyone would ever bring it up. 

This is a place where the rules as written are discussed so they can be made more clear or fixed if it comes to that.

No one is implying that because the rules aren't perfect that you quit the game.

We won't get rulings on the forums anymore so while waiting for the FAQ you have to rule it somehow if it comes up in a game. I know how I'm going to rule (the way that I'm 99% sure the FAQ will rule it).

[Adran]

Just musing here, but if Red Joker was its own category, wouldn't it make more sense for it step down to Severe? It stepping down Moderate makes it feel more like Red Joker is actually a Severe category hit with some extra bells and whistles. 

 

Maybe it would make more sense, but, as has been pointed out several times, the rule book here overrides that question, and tells us what happens (Blasts on the red joker flip will do the moderate damage).

That doesn't tell us that the red joker is its own damage catagory, but it also doesn't tell us that it isn't.

 

Me, I view the red joker damage as its own catagory, but expect it to do all the effects of severe and all the effects of weak, (so that attack that gives various amounts of Blighted dependign on the flip would give both 1 for weak and 3 for severe).

I can't justify it in the rules, but its as valid as any other line here. How that effects Nix, I haven't a clue.

 

And in reply to Solkan, You don't have to pick your red joker. You can cheat over it if you want, (as long as its not a negative flip), and if it is a negative flip, you don't have to select the red joker, it is opional.

[The Godlyness]

Just musing here, but if Red Joker was its own category, wouldn't it make more sense for it step down to Severe? It stepping down Moderate makes it feel more like Red Joker is actually a Severe category hit with some extra bells and whistles.

Uh yes it would. Heck it would do that also as any reasonable person reading the rules would think I just flipped red joker now the rest of you eat severe. And under blasts it further makes an understanding of this with this line I will quote for you.

As well,the Red Joker's damage is stepped down to Moderate (not Severe) damage.

Which with out this rule you could easily do severe off blasts. So wyrd in their infinite wisdom decided that was too powerful. So made it balanced. So your musings are quite correct but rules make it balanced. I