How to deal with Abra Cadaver!

[DeleteAccount]

Well, leaving aside that I'm still convinced it's overpowered, I'm having a hard time stopping the Abra Cadaver trigger from being dominating. It's just really not that hard for something to get transfusioned and eat an Expunge in the face turn 1-2 which translates into a Flesh construct in the middle of your lines that also happens to bring poison 5 on it to easily prime a second bomb. Since Sebastion has accomplice, it is also very easy to do the one two in a single fluid motion, so condition removal may not even be useful in this scenario. I know that at the end of the day, you should just do the mission, but it becomes harder and harder when you get such a gigantic meat bag that blocks an area of the board.

 

Basically, outside of Chiaki stripping the poison from the poison packages or bumrushing McMourning I just don't see how to avoid this completely gumming up your whole game, since killing a Flesh Construct demands resources for very little gain and next turn, there are good odds you'll get another one in there.

 

I'm asking this mostly as a Ten Thunders player where summoning is a lot scarcer, with a Resurrectionist I think I should be able to control it to some degree.

[Ausplosions]

I have no Idea how this is such a huge problem. It needs to have enough wounds to Kill the model.

It needs to not be a HtK model.

It needs to have Sebastian succeed.

It needs LoS.

It needs your model to fail two consecutive duels.

If you are getting expunged in turn one, you are not adapting to a tactic you are aware of, and you also probably do not have enough terrain on the board.

[DeleteAccount]

I have no Idea how this is such a huge problem. It needs to have enough wounds to Kill the model.

It needs to not be a HtK model.

It needs to have Sebastian succeed.

It needs LoS.

It needs your model to fail two consecutive duels.

If you are getting expunged in turn one, you are not adapting to a tactic you are aware of, and you also probably do not have enough terrain on the board.

9 wounds is easy, that kills a lot of models in one hit

Not all my crew can be hard to kill, aside from me never playing with my crew tailored to a master I might not even face

It's a Ca of 6, not that hard

With transfusion being a 0 action and expunge too, it's not that hard to get LoS

A Ca 6 and a Ca 7 duel, average Df is 5, quite reliable to get through

 

Best I can do is keep my distance then, but next turn I can's stay cowering in my side of the table unless the schemes are very friendly to me.

[Mike3838]

I agree with Razhem - I struggle with this one too.

Most of your suggested defenses Aus, seems to rely on staying out of LOS, or hoping that the McM player is stupid enough to target one of your models with lots of Wds or H2K. That's something that's somewhat out of your control.

I can't stay out of LOS the whole game - I'm going to need to engage the Rezzer crew at some point, and I find that as soon as I do, there's very quickly a 2 model swing in my opponent's favour (I lose one and he gains one). The fact he only needs to tie his Expunge duel for it to go through is the icing on the cake.

It might not happen regularly on turn 1, but it has a very real risk of happening on turn 2 *and* turn 3 and onwards, unless I cower my entire crew behind terrain all game.

I'm in the boat of appreciating as many more counter suggestions as possible

[Lucidicide]

What are you running 10T?

[EnternalVoid]

Perhaps some more information.  While I know how this trick works to be honest my Meta never really picked up on it.  I mean one player tried it but McMourning I don't think clicked as well for him as Nico or some of the other masters for him.  So it is actually one of those strategies I have seen less in person.

 

How has he been pumping up the poison he plans to use for Transfusion?  Also what Model has he been dumping it on?  You said it has been happening first and second turn, partially because both actions are (0)'s thus don't require AP that can be used for movement, has your opponent been using any movement tricks or just a pure sort of bump rush approach using their AP to move to range and firing away?  Also has he been out activiting you to make sure this goes off?

 

Also what masters have you generally been running?  You mentioned an Average Df of 5 so I am not sure what in 10T you might be using.

[monkeyking68]

You can strip the poison off the enemy as well.  Makes Transfusion a waste sometimes.

[Jonathan Pickles]

I have only played with this not against it & only a couple of times since I adopted the policy of sniping out weak models to get the 2 for one rather than trying to kill big threats with McM (what a bully!). It does seem like a win bigger effect if you are not careful but it is a pretty good swing if you are down. 

You can get the poison with rancid transplant or poison guns or various melee attacks as well as transferrence. Luring a model next to 2 belles makes the rancid transplant add 6 poison, enough for the scheme runners &c minions. Or McM can push 5 from "That's the stuff" after a dose from a friend (Nurse, Totem) or this ones ready next to a friendly models) then he can reach a long way..... 

 

If McM charges a 5-6 wound model there is a fair chance it will be left with a couple of wounds & a couple of poison so can be abra cadavered or will likely turn into a dog at least.

[DeleteAccount]

Well, I'm both Resser and 10 Thunders. I've used McMourning myself and I've noticed that once I get the engine going, I can keep the tempo going pretty much the rest of the game using the Poison from the new Flesh Constructs unless there is some heavy duty condition removal on the table.

 

When I've faced it, I've had Chiaki strip the Poison from the transfusion battery, but this is against a player who was still getting his footing with McMourning and lacked that experience to know how to reset a new poison bomb on small notice.

 

The poison bomb can be prepped in a matter of ways, basically, a nurse charging something will get you a poison +8 bomb right there, if applied on a flesh construct that is max damage already or just using the Chiahuhua to poop poison. since the poison donor and receiver only have to b 8" from Sebastian, the donor can be away from condition removal and with Accomplice you have decent odds of getting McMourning into an accomplice chain if really needed, though McMourning crews tend to have an easy time starting swarmy, so you have good odds to outactivate in case there is condition removal around.

 

My last two games were using Jakob, one was with the opponent that is still getting his bearing with McMourning, I broke his bomb with Chiaki and he failled to notice he could prep a new one easily with the Nurse and nuke Chiaki. He also committed another bunch of mistakes that cost him any form of positioning to create a new bomb. Last one was vs a player with a clearer idea of how to use him and I didn't have Chiaki in the crew going with a Darkenned crew except for a couple of Tengu, turn 1 I already lost an illuminated that became a construct, only way to have saved that would have been using graves to save him, but that would have only really stalled the inevitable. He also planted damage on huggy with the Rogue Necromancy, rancid transplant and Sebastian killed him with his poison bomb. Thank god I had Rising Sun, though every time Huggy came back out, he got neutralized hard.

 

I had a bad brain fart when second turn he transfered and killed Graves, but forgot he had hard to kill, Graves was still boned since McMourning and Sebastian were both close, so there were big odds he was just going to turn into a canine remains with that setup. But yeah, misplay, so second construct. On turn 3 he didn't get a construct since he nuked huggy but wasn't 3" from it to make it undead, but in turn 4 he did get another flesh construct from killing huggy at close range (learned the hard wy that rising sun doesn't stop the flesh construct summon). Poison was applied by rancid transplant in both these cases since there were already a couple of constructs in the area, so it was easy to pile it in.

 

I had a good run to kill McMourning, but failled to seal the deal since Jakob gave priority to kill Sebastian to help keep Tannen alive (bodyguard) so I don't doubt I can kill him, but two/tree activations of getting the trick done is all you really need to have me wailing at bags of meat that demand absurd amounts of resources to remove. I thought of using Heed my voice, but my hand was depleted at that point and I was slow from a Rotten Belle, so I couldn't remove both constructs in the area, also decided I wanted to bank on getting Rafking to charge McMourning, failed hard anyway.

 

Basically, the feeling I have from using him and facing him is that his deathblow is very hard to control and once he does one or two of those, he quickly starts gaining momentum and killing yours with all the engagement areas which end up killing interaction and effective AP use.

[rgarbonzo]

Fermented River Monks, Shenlong, Sensei Yu and Brewmaster all love them some poison... just saying

[Rathnard]

I faced this just last week and as it turns out, Jack Daw's Guillotine Injustice upgrade is incredibly effective in dealing with Flesh Constructs.

Of course we're talking about Resser/10T here, so moving on...

It seems like the best way to prevent the Flesh Construct engine from getting out of control is to take out the engine itself. IIRC M-Dog and Sebs both need to be quite close to their target to pull this off, and if they're putting Fleshies in the middle of your crew then presumably you should have a chance to kill out at least neutralize at least one of the two. McMournings Wp isnt great so debuff-style attacks (eg. Mollys Terrible Secret) work pretty well on him. In fact a Nurse could potentiality lock him down for the game with her Take your Meds action.

And if the Flesh Construct is physically in the way, well, isn't that what those Rotten belles are for?

[hypoking]

Fermented River Monks, Shenlong, Sensei Yu and Brewmaster all love them some poison... just saying

I kinda fail to see how that inhibits more fleshies popping out of them.

[rgarbonzo]

Well Shenlong is Hard to Kill ignores damage from all conditions and if he is carrying the fermented upgrade can then turn all to . That is one way to deal, Sensei Yu can be the same, Fermented Monks are immune to damage from Poison as well. Also if you play real aggressive Misdirection can come in handy.

[Ausplosions]

Except Expunge isn't damage FROM poison. It's damage EQUAL to poison. So he dies just the same because immunity to poison means nothing.

[rgarbonzo]

Okay so Komainu, Kamaitachi, Tengu, Shadow Effigy all will not result in a Flesh Construct because they are neither Living nor Undead.

 

Komainu are especially good against any Ca actions within 6" since it gives them a free strike on the casting model. 

[Ausplosions]

Unless they are within 3" of McMourning's with upgrade to make them undead.

[rgarbonzo]

Well we can go rock paper scissors all day, Shenlong cares not for Poison and he is still Hard To Kill so go ahead and do 9 wounds to him, he can still prevent and be above the 1 Wd threshold of HtK. If he is within 3" of McM after the accomplice stuff and he can give himself Poison that will make a dead McM.  Anything with a range element to it will cause problems as well. Depending upon board layout Traps are a fun thing to drop in front of accessways. 

[Vanilla_Dice]

How is shenlong immune to poison?

Personally I'm with Rathnard, take out mcmorning, target his WP.... One of the best at doing this is bishop, even better if you can give bishop fast too for a double flurry

[Mason]

You can also use the Transmortis zombies as a Resser to turn off his triggers, which not only prevents Abra Cadaver from firing off, but also blocks McMourning's Infect trigger from functioning. 

 

As far as Ten Thunders go, McCabe basically has an extra life in the form of being knocked off his horse, which will buy him a turn of running around without being a Flesh Construct.  That's in addition to everything else he brings to the table (buffs, ability to hire Riflemen against a very melee-focused crew, AoE slow with a potential paralyze to just shut McMourning/Sebastian down, etc). 

 

Alternatively, Oiran give models around them +1 Wp, which would help your models resist McMourning's Expunge while still giving you the option of luring Sebastian closer to your crew.  The Shadow Effigy can use its Blend Into Shadow to protect your leader by giving McMourning a to his Expunge attack. 

 

Of course, you could just hire Hans and just shoot Transfusion right off of Sebastian. 

[Bengt]

As far as I can see both McMourning and Sebastian have straight 5s on Df and Wp, so what is the benefit to specifically target their Wp?

[Rathnard]

There's no specific benefit in targeting McMouring's Wp over his Df per se. But it does make him vulnerable to enemy debuff effects, most of which specifically target his Wp. For instance the Nurse has a Ca 6 on the Wp-resisting Take your Meds, action, which makes it much easier for her to successfully paralyse McMourning with it. There are plenty of other examples of this. The 10-T seem to be low on debuff effects, but Yin with Gnawing Fear would practically shut him down, for instance. 

 

In any case and as I said above, just kill him. Yeah I know it's not as easy as it sounds but if he's going to all this effort to build Flesh constructs (especially if he's having to target high-Df models), he's leaving McMourning open to a possible counter attack. And the 10-T do have a few nice options for piling on the damage. 

[Tiny]

Shenlong immune to dmg from conditions, but that doesnt get around expunge.

 

Seems that people are getting caught up trying to treat the symptoms and not the disease. The symptom in this case being the flesh construct. Having played a ton of Doug and 10t i suppose im in a decent position to answer this. When playing doug, I love it when people attack a flesh construct that i've just summoned using abra cadaver, in my mind if you're using an activation to put dmg into a flesh construct you've effectively given that model paralyse, because you're attacking a model that was yours recently and in no way hindering me doing it again, and it'll take at least 2 models activations to kill that model, so in my mind you're just paralysing any model you use to attack the flesh construct as it doesnt stop my engine and will generally not hinder me at all.

 

Doug's weaknesses are his low df and wp (both 5) and only hard to wd not impossible. He only heals 5 wds a turn max! And thats only from his melee attacks. So put the pressure on doug, take wds off him and keep the pressure on, force him to back off and play around in the back field or use a nurse to paralyse and fully heal him. With such low Df and Wp most minions have a solid chance of sticking some damage on him. The same goes for Seb, he's got the same defensive stats. The more wds you put on him the less aggressive he can play and force the momentum of the fight. With him not playing so aggressive you can start swinging the fight back in your favour when he isnt just sitting in your lines tanking damage and farting out flesh constructs. 

 

TLDR: Dont go for flesh constructs you're letting doug stand around and kill more of your crew.

[Swiglitz]

I play as the good Doctor quite a lot and admit once you get into the groove and there's plenty of poison on the board it is very difficult for my opponent to stop me, either from expunges, or the combo of Catalyst and induction.

 

I've yet to play against a dedicated 10T master but I have faced Lynch as Neverborn a fair bit. I can see low river monks being handy for condition removal and in the case of Razhem's darkened crew perhaps using Huggy as a support/controller might be a better idea?

 

You could use Heed my voice to push McMourning and Sebastian out of range of the Plastic Surgery upgrade so no Fleshie off the back of an expunge, and walk the primed poison bomb away before he can be transfused onto someone. Of course the real trick is to take out Seb and/or McMourning ASAP. As both models want to be quite close to their targets to get the most from their abilities it shouldn't be too difficult for an illuminated and beckoner combo to kill off Sebastian fairly easily. Don't be afraid to 'waste an activation' murdering the Zombie Chihuahua either, it's very easily done and removes a considerable poison threat. McMourning is a tougher cookie thanks to hard to wound, a giant wounds score and a melee heal, but it's definitely doable, especially if you can get Brilliance on him.

 

In short, I'm not able to offer up much in the way of advice to stop the poison bomb, as it's pretty much his whole gimmick and should be fairly hard to stop. But, in terms of weaknesses in the crew in general, kill Sebastian and the chihuahua as early as you can and with as little resources as you think you need for the job. This slows down the poison bomb and incidental damage from induction. If you still struggle after that I'd recommend you go after McMourning with everything you've got.

 

Also, it may not always be appropriate, given the strat and scheme, but if you can't kill Sebastian off, spread out as much as you can. Make McMourning really have to work for his expunges. The doc can pretty rapid, thanks to his triggers and upgrades, but Sebastian is not and you really need both of those models working fairly close together to get the most out of the crew. It might also help separate the dynamic duo, allowing you nip in and take out the slower moving hunchback/midget. (Height 1, really? He's the same size as the zombie chihuahua is he?)

 

It may be our meta, but I generally only get to do lethal expunges about twice a game, one in turn two or three and a second in turn four or five so I might be missing a couple of tricks if you're getting his with them more than that.

 

Hope that helps.

[rgarbonzo]

Or you could just use Brewmaster to put the good doctor on a triple negative flip for everything then kill him with a beatstick. 

[Sholto]

Any time I have a problem with a Ca Action, I think Sue. If you're 10T, Mei Feng's Vent Steam is horrible to those Actions as well.