Trying to get interested in avatars

[Hateful Darkblack]

I would like to be able to buy VPs directly from Wyrd, both for tournaments and casual play. I think $25 per VP is fair for casual play and $50 per VP for tournament.

 

Wait, no, that's the dumbest idea ever. Please disregard.

[Justin]

I would like to be able to buy VPs directly from Wyrd, both for tournaments and casual play. I think $25 per VP is fair for casual play and $50 per VP for tournament.

 

Wait, no, that's the dumbest idea ever. Please disregard.

 

So...you want Malifaux to be a CCG?

[zFiend]

I would like to be able to buy VPs directly from Wyrd, both for tournaments and casual play. I think $25 per VP is fair for casual play and $50 per VP for tournament.

 

Wait, no, that's the dumbest idea ever. Please disregard.

 

Hahah, pay to win in Malifaux They could start selling them in Winning Decks next to Arsenal Decks. Then we could just advise people to buy one crew and a boat load of Decks.

[wizuriel]

Hahah, pay to win in Malifaux They could start selling them in Winning Decks next to Arsenal Decks. Then we could just advise people to buy one crew and a boat load of Decks.

 

Only if the winning deck is filled with red jokers.

 

Getting back on topic though I don't think the idea is that avatar's should be awesome because they cost money, but I do think they need to justify:

1) The hurdles to get them into play

2) The fluff expectations created around Avatars

3) And yes the fact they did cost more money compared to just getting another upgrade

 

Personally I feel like avatars and upgrades are like apples and oranges, not really the same but kind of comparable. I just feel like Avatar's are being too limited by trying to force them to be in line with upgrades ultimately leaving them feeling very underwhelming (especially when you read about the fluff about them and actually swap to the different model). 

 

Personally I think upgrades are fine as a sure fire way to increase the power level of your master / models. I really think instead of trying to force avatars to be like an upgrade they should be more of a high risk / high reward option. 

[Pierowmaniac]

I just hope Justin and the Dev team are not afraid to completely rewrite the whole Avatar ruleset - including the somewhat controversial Manifestation/upgrade mechanic which seems to crop up more often than not on the Beta forum.

 

I'm not going to complain that 1 page of the main rulebook becomes redundant, if I get a much better rule system when Avatars finally go live.

 

Personally I do think Manifestation is one hoop to many to jump through in a 5 turn game.

I also see that making the Avatars too powerful could lead to a very one sided game with the likelihood being that the first player to manifest is also the player most likely to be in the lead on VP's. - Maybe have a mechanic that Auto manifest ALL Avatars has soon as 1 model Manifests? giving a very cinematic Challenge type effect, where 1 master Manifests and then the opponents master also manifests to meet the new challenge.

 

 

Again just want to say to Justin and the crew, please don't be afraid to strip the Avatar rules right back and start again, I'm pretty sure the Community will not have anything negative to say if you do.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I'm pretty certain that redesigning the avatar rules from step 1 is also absolutely off the table. It took a long time to even get the avatar rules set to where it is now, given that, and the fact that I'm 100% certain they want to avoid invalidating their own rulebook I think the system we have is what we are going to keep, and that not everyone is going to be happy with Avatars.

 

I could certainly be wrong, but I don't personally see ANY system that is going to make even a majority of the player base agree that avatars are good. There are just too many conflicting requirements and desires to ever create a clean system out of them.

[ehren37]

I wish Avatars never made it to the game . Perhaps a separate Avatars ruleset/variant where you start with one as your Master and rules to balance accordingly. Guess it looked good on paper...

Unfortunately every time I've posted suggestions to boost them, they've been shouted down that avatars cant be better than a master's existing upgrades (despite the other upgrades not requiring anything to achieve full value). When I try to point out the few avatars that actually DO offer good advantages and interesting game play, I've been shouted down again that we cant compare avatars to each other since they're still in beta. Which again makes no sense, as we had to compare beta models to each other in wave 1, but whatever. Wyrd will either make them interesting or bland as they see fit. Hopefully the former if they want to sell expensive game models, because for 40-50 bucks you can get some amazing boutique pieces if you just want something pretty to paint.

 

I don't think they should grant VP however. I'd rather the cards themselves actually be better. Not having the avatar take an upgrade slot might be a better option if they are going to keep the effects minimal.

[Mako]

I kind of like the current manifest rules, as written in the rulebook. I'd complain if they got changed, just like people who don't like them complain they want them changed. Lucky for me, it's pretty unlikely that they'll rip a page out the rules, so I'm probably ok.

 

Sure, maybe the manifest cards, events, and the avatar upgrades could do with some work, though I don't think they're all failing. Some are good options in certain situations, which is what they should be. I don't want to go back to the powerful, very fluffy, but suck to play against avatars of last edition...

 

The way I look at them is that the avatar should probably cost a bit more than the front of the card, as it gives you access to the back in game. Then the back should be worth that extra cost, plus the manifest effort.

 

So a 3ss avatar is kind of like a really good 2ss / ok 3ss upgrade on the front, with a good 3ss upgrade on the back, and the manifest event paying you back for some of the manifest effort depending on the final value of that back side. That, to me, means the power level is roughly similar when everything is factored in, and manifesting at the right time (or not at all if that's better for the situation) is the way to make the avatar upgrade really shine.

 

Maybe I'm looking at it differently to everyone else, but that's how I see it.

[SpiralngCadavr]

Avatars giving out bonus VP is absolutely off the table. Just putting that note here, as I think this thread could be otherwise productive.

 

I also want to point out the current manifest requirements. I have heard a few people say they don't want to jump through hoops to manifest. But the current manifest methods are: Gain VP (probably planning on that), taking damage (likely going to happen), killing things (probably planning on that), living to turn 4 (not too hard, and nothing out of the way), and sacrificing one of your models (probably not planning on that at all, but not difficult to do at all, and gets you a turn 1 avatar).

 

As for the monetary aspect (i.e. I spent 40 dollars so I want this model to have 40 dollars worth of impact on the game) well, that's a harder point. Keep discussing.

I think the newer iterations of Planned went a long way to fix the problems with effort manifesting, but...

 

-VP limits to schemes that don't pay off at the end of the game, or will probably be no faster than Planned

-taking damage depends on master, as even the juicier targets might be better to avoid, and is risky

-killing that much with a single model is going to be harder for many masters

-sacrificial means that the avatar is costing you around 6 points, meaning it better be pretty strong (with the exception of avatars that allow summons)

-living to turn 4 also means waiting to turn 4: you've got very little control over manifesting, and it isn't going to be around for long, and it's got to be very effective in those last 2 turns unless the pre-manifest is worth it on its own

 

I'm not saying that the effort/cost is unreasonable if you're getting something good out of it, but I do think that there are avatars where I consider it not worthwhile.

 

For example, I don't have enough experience to say definitively, but I still don't find Lucius's avatar to be worth much. His pre-manifest is not going to (unless I'm mistaken) have the impact of close to 2 SS, compared to most options. So, say it's worth around 1SS.

 

This leaves 1 SS and the manifest requirements as the cost for a situational 1AP per turn, on a limited number of turns.

-VP, it isn't worth changing my plans for the extra 1-3 AP, though it's situationally an option (i.e. if I'm already planning scheme(s) that pay off early)

-taking damage or dealing damage, Lucius isn't a front-line fighter so neither option is very strong (not a matter of cost)

-I don't particularly consider it worth a sacrifice, since I'm getting 2-3 actions + an activation (i.e. controlling the flow of a turn) from even 4-pt models a turn, vs. (likely) 1 a turn for lucius (and I don't consider his actions worth 2-3x that of a minion's), which is also concentrating my force (effectively putting 4 more points or several actions/activations into Lucius's cost)

-waiting to turn 4 means I'm (roughly) paying 1 SS for 1-2 AP that I can use under fairly limited circumstances (timing, location), assuming he lasts that long

[Justin]

I see a lot of posts here from people I haven't seen terribly much input from in the beta forum, and nothing in regards to battle reports.

 

Not judging - just curious, how many people have tried the rules how they are? Recently? I keep seeing the complaint about jumping through hoops, but all manifestations save one are things that are pretty much going to happen anyway.

 

And a number of avatars are worthwhile just for their front side and, if you manifest, it's just gravy. Maybe not the world-shattering effect you would expect from the fluff, or worth 40 dollars (however you justify that in game terms) but worth taking.

 

Really just curious how much of this is theory, or based off of things other people have said, etc.

 

Anyway, have fun with this discussion. I'll likely lock it when the beta closes, as there is no need to discuss models to death that aren't even available.

 

And no, we're not throwing the rule set out and starting from scratch.

[Justin]

I think the newer iterations of Planned went a long way to fix the problems with effort manifesting, but...

 

-VP limits to schemes that don't pay off at the end of the game, or will probably be no faster than Planned

-taking damage depends on master, as even the juicier targets might be better to avoid, and is risky

-killing that much with a single model is going to be harder for many masters

-sacrificial means that the avatar is costing you around 6 points, meaning it better be pretty strong (with the exception of avatars that allow summons)

-living to turn 4 also means waiting to turn 4: you've got very little control over manifesting, and it isn't going to be around for long, and it's got to be very effective in those last 2 turns unless the pre-manifest is worth it on its own

 

I'm not saying that the effort/cost is unreasonable if you're getting something good out of it, but I do think that there are avatars where I consider it not worthwhile.

 

For example, I don't have enough experience to say definitively, but I still don't find Lucius's avatar to be worth much. His pre-manifest is not going to (unless I'm mistaken) have the impact of close to 2 SS, compared to most options. So, say it's worth around 1SS.

 

This leaves 1 SS and the manifest requirements as the cost for a situational 1AP per turn, on a limited number of turns.

-VP, it isn't worth changing my plans for the extra 1-3 AP, though it's situationally an option (i.e. if I'm already planning scheme(s) that pay off early)

-taking damage or dealing damage, Lucius isn't a front-line fighter so neither option is very strong (not a matter of cost)

-I don't particularly consider it worth a sacrifice, since I'm getting 2-3 actions + an activation (i.e. controlling the flow of a turn) from even 4-pt models a turn, vs. (likely) 1 a turn for lucius (and I don't consider his actions worth 2-3x that of a minion's), which is also concentrating my force (effectively putting 4 more points or several actions/activations into Lucius's cost)

-waiting to turn 4 means I'm (roughly) paying 1 SS for 1-2 AP that I can use under fairly limited circumstances (timing, location), assuming he lasts that long

 

No single one of those will ALWAYS be the manifest requirement you want. But I do think it is reasonable to assume that AT LEAST one of those will always be viable.

 

I definitely agree there are avatars that aren't done. No arguments here. That's why we're getting a brand new beta test with fresh eyes rather than sending these to print. But as long as we have a handful of avatars that DO work, I think it's reasonable to assume we can get the rest up to snuff next wave.

[ehren37]

I definetly don't like the more money= a stronger model idea at all I own 5 avatar models..ya I want them to be awesome but I would prefer that they were balanced and matched fluff that's my main thing.

 

I do think more money should yield something more unique/interesting than a regular old upgrade they could simply print out on a card and include in the next wave's faction decks.  At this point it feels you'd get more variation in gameplay by just buying another unit (and that gets to go on the table on round 1).  Kaeris, for example, was was an interesting idea that was scrapped rather than go through the effort to balance it. If they went with the more daring design with the expectation that it only impacts the game for a couple of rounds, I'd be more excited.

[rancor709]

I go back to something I've said for a long time.

 

There are 5 turns in the game, There are 5 manifest cards

 

Each of the Manifest cards should just correspond to a turn with increased manifest events upon manifesting later. The reasoning is its a simple solution, nothing is quite as simple as at the start of the game you pick the turn you want to manifest and nothing more tricky than knowing turn 3, I turn avatar and x happens how do I make that work for me. This solution also provides a real scale for balance them as upgrades, essentially reinforcing the avatar may come out any turn so it has to be balanced front and back to ensure tactical choice. The manifests events on the avatar themselves can be tailored as well to the style of manifest most befitting them or the power of there event. We eliminate the hopes or the outside the realm of VP acquisition and opponents action on your manifestation and give complete agency to the player throughout the process. 

 

Under no circumstances should Manifestation be tied into giving additional VPs. I would argue manifestation should be a separate simple to follow mechanic in the true vein of the upgrade that enhances the flavor and options within the game to achieve victory and not be huge, help or hindrance to the achievement of said points. In essense taking the avatar or not should have the same impact on the game as not taking One upgrade over another. And at present the manifest system directly makes them more of a hassle than there impact will ever be worth. 

[SpiralngCadavr]

No single one of those will ALWAYS be the manifest requirement you want. But I do think it is reasonable to assume that AT LEAST one of those will always be viable.

 

I definitely agree there are avatars that aren't done. No arguments here. That's why we're getting a brand new beta test with fresh eyes rather than sending these to print. But as long as we have a handful of avatars that DO work, I think it's reasonable to assume we can get the rest up to snuff next wave.

I agree that masters should always be able to use at least one (if because of nothing else, then by virtue of one of them requiring you survive to turn 4 and another requiring you take a lot of damage), and I think that the manifest requirements feel pretty solid and a reasonable effort- my problem is with individual avatars having rewards that aren't proportional to the effort (or cost).

[ehren37]

 

 

 

Due to limited play time, I've only managed 3 games with A Lynch, but no battle reports simply because I'm bad at taking notes. In 2 out of the 3 games, the post manifest was more or less worthless because the Hungering Darkness was dead. He's the only master who relies on another specific unit being alive in order to get much use out of his ability (Vik was changed to actually ADD a sister in order to get more use out of hers). We've discussed this repeatedly in his thread, nearly all acknowledge it pushes you towards Rising Sun over Endless Hunger (to ensure you have a HD to use), and there's been multiple suggestions of letting Default work on any Darkened model (but limiting the chain activation). But we've never seen any significant change save other than making his manifest event worse. At this point, I'm assuming he's done, so the most I can offer a statement that the rules currently don't inspire me to test him further. 

 

Is the design goal to make all of them like this? Some are really great. Mei Feng for example is probably worth 2 stones if you never manifest.... others not so much. 3 stones seems a lot to pay for +1 WK on Wong. 

[Justin]

I have a whole post on design goals in the beta.

 

But basically, I see avatars falling into one of three camps:

 

1) As I describe above: the front side alone makes the upgrade worth taking and, if you manifest you get a small boost which is just gravy. (Mei Feng, to a certain extent Sonnia).

 

2) The front side is very weak for the cost, but the backside is very strong for the cost. This means you need to manifest to get the soulstones worth out of the cost, but when you do the power of the upgrade will be greater than the cost to compensate the trouble of manifesting (although even so, it won't be earth shattering, as the manifest requirements are fairly easy. You're mostly being compensated for only getting it for part of the game). (Ophelia)

 

3) Both the front and back of the upgrade are individually worth the cost, and manifesting is done situationaly when the back would be more useful. (Seamus)

 

 

I have had players tell me that each of these is *the* way to go and *all* avatars should be brought in line with their favorite method. But I think each avatar will be different depending on what works for it, and I'll have to deal with not making everyone happy (as usual).

[DeleteAccount]

Well, I'm not thrilled with avatars as a whole either, but after reading Justin's design goals and restrictions on avatars, well, frankly I don't think it can be better.

 

A lot of people don't know this, but initially, avatars were supposed to have their own card, manifesting was also quite different and they were supposed to have table wide effects that didn't recognize between friend and foe.

 

To keep the story short, it was a horrible mess where some benefited your opponent more than you while also making you wonder why the hell you purchased upgrades.

 

This idea was kicked around for weeks till the whole concept of the separate avatar was scrapped and turned into an upgrade. That also had it's huge headaches (there were no premanifests for a while too) until we got to the current list of avatar rules and concepts, and frankly, with the restrictions in place to how avatars are supposed to work, I don't think you can do much better (now if I could break those bloody restrictions...)

 

I hate hoop jumping as much as the next and a part of me would love it for Rancor's suggestion to just be used and be done with it, but the last change to planned manifest has been a huge step forward in my eyes to making manifest something that hopefully everybody can achieve with a decent grasp of the game by the end of turn 2. I still think 3 VP is still too much and forces you into a given scheme pool (still hoping for first victory point from strategy or even first victory point in the game), but the ones that work with bloody manifest work as intended and those that can use sacrificial (Kirai, Nicodem, McMourning) seem to also work as advertised.

 

For the people calling the whole thing a mess, I dare them to read all the avatars and not tell me at least one that seems close to done, I mean, most of the resser masters are pretty close with some tweaks at most and the ten thunders, though not as defined, at least have Mei and Misaki in a very good place.

 

Also, again, keep your expectations realistic. I mean,  ehren37, I'm probably one of the bad guys that scream at you that you mentioned, but really Yan Lo right now is incredibly powerful, both the games I've used him the manifest event gave me a huge leg up and the 0 barrage was huge in recovering from my numerical disadvantage on my second game. I don't know what you expect for a 2 SS cost, no I don't think it's done, probably needs a few rethinks but remember, this is a 2 SS upgrade that should have the equivalent of a 3 SS at most and that you yourself haven't fielded on the table yet, I insist, it surprised me how potent it became and why it was potent. I can't speak for Lynch since you clearly have me beat there, but I've read others that value the permabrilliance a lot more than Default, also, that it hasn't changed in weeks doesn't mean it still won't change, so don't automatically consider it a "it's done".

[Malal]

I see a lot of posts here from people I haven't seen terribly much input from in the beta forum, and nothing in regards to battle reports.

 

Found it hard with work schedule to get many games in (and even harder to write up) but lack of play could also be an indicator that the rules are currently a little uninspiring/underwhelming.

 

aOphelia for example is an Avatar you've said is close to done yet the general consensus of posters is that she may as well lose 1 ability as it'll never get used  and you're left with 1 point of super armour (no idea what that's got to do with Perforation?) that costs 2 upgrade slots.

 

With limited free time available, I'm not going to use it to further confirm my own opinion when I could choose interesting/fun alternatives. 

 

Just seen your last post, Ophelia's 1 point of super armour is worth 2ss + 2 upgrade slots (+cost of 2nd upgrade + "the hoop")? I don't agree, I doubt I can change your mind, what's left to play test on her?

[Grim]

Just hope Avatars don't end up being the Colossus/Gargantuan/Titan of Malifaux. The fear that the player who decides not to play with an Avatar becomes SOL if the opposing player does.  I would rather have a game/tournament/rules where Avatars are played or not at all. One or the other. Manifestation is a cool concept but in my opinion doesn't add anything to an already good game.

[DeleteAccount]

Found it hard with work schedule to get many games in (and even harder to write up) but lack of play could also be an indicator that the rules are currently a little uninspiring/underwhelming.

 

aOphelia for example is an Avatar you've said is close to done yet the general consensus of posters is that she may as well lose 1 ability as it'll never get used  and you're left with 1 point of super armour (no idea what that's got to do with Perforation?) that costs 2 upgrade slots.

 

With limited free time available, I'm not going to use it to further confirm my own opinion when I could choose interesting/fun alternatives. 

Well, that's probably more a problem with Ophelia being borderline broken in how good she is at doing what she does. Hell, the dumb luck trigger by itself is probably the reason why nobody seems to care about her gun rotation mechanic. And although her avatar title makes no lick of sense with what she actually does, could you really justify making her better at killing? (ignore armor, or hard to kill or what have you), I mean, I remember when I saw Perdita avatar made her better at killing, I nearly shat a brick. This doesn't mean I don't think Ophelia may be wonky or not, I'm not an Ophelia player so I don't think I can judge much that, but I do understand why she is so bloody hard to actually do.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Seamus' post manifest side isn't worth manifesting in my opinion, especially as you limit his mobility in my opinion. But that will have to be brought up again in September if I have time as my family will also grow during that time, and the small human might have other ideas about how I can spend my time.

[rgarbonzo]

Well, that's probably more a problem with Ophelia being borderline broken in how good she is at doing what she does. Hell, the dumb luck trigger by itself is probably the reason why nobody seems to care about her gun rotation mechanic. And although her avatar title makes no lick of sense with what she actually does, could you really justify making her better at killing? (ignore armor, or hard to kill or what have you), I mean, I remember when I saw Perdita avatar made her better at killing, I nearly shat a brick. This doesn't mean I don't think Ophelia may be wonky or not, I'm not an Ophelia player so I don't think I can judge much that, but I do understand why she is so bloody hard to actually do.

The only way to make Ophelia better at killing would be to rename her Perdita.

[Justin]

Found it hard with work schedule to get many games in (and even harder to write up) but lack of play could also be an indicator that the rules are currently a little uninspiring/underwhelming.

 

aOphelia for example is an Avatar you've said is close to done yet the general consensus of posters is that she may as well lose 1 ability as it'll never get used  and you're left with 1 point of super armour (no idea what that's got to do with Perforation?) that costs 2 upgrade slots.

 

With limited free time available, I'm not going to use it to further confirm my own opinion when I could choose interesting/fun alternatives. 

 

Just seen your last post, Ophelia's 1 point of super armour is worth 2ss + 2 upgrade slots (+cost of 2nd upgrade + "the hoop")? I don't agree, I doubt I can change your mind, what's left to play test on her?

 

"Super armor" plus enhancing her upgrade swapping ability? And although players complained about a single ability (which is no longer there) the consensus is and has been that the avatar definitely has a place to be taken.

 

If you don't want to test things because they're subpar/overpowered/not done that's fine. I totally get that. I avoid the betas of other games like the plague because I have no desire to put in the work without being paid. But at the same time you're looking at rules that aren't done without playing them, and calling for a total rewrite (well, not you perse, but I'm speaking generally). That's just not how this process works.

[Justin]

Seamus' post manifest side isn't worth manifesting in my opinion, especially as you limit his mobility in my opinion. But that will have to be brought up again in September if I have time as my family will also grow during that time, and the small human might have other ideas about how I can spend my time.

 

Congrats!

[rancor709]

My concern is less with the avatars themselves and more so with the way manifestation is being handled. I do think the revision to planned is a great step forward, however I'm still not seen a compelling reason for making manifestation a minigame. However I think the simplicity of Planned and Sacrificial could be extended to the other manifest types. Perhaps Bloody could be simplified to just killing a model instead of worrying about how many stones it is. And instead of taking dmg on the master and going down, why not have it be again tied into a simple tractable board state, such as losing a model. We don't have to go as simple as turns, but I don't think we have to break out our calculators and endanger our masters directly.