Tokapondora

I'm not sure saying TT placing above Guild means TT is too strong, favoured or dominating. It'd sooner hint to problems with Guild instead. http://www.malifaux-rankings.com/#/events Here's the UK's tourney rankings, where TT seems to do rather dismally. It seems to measure from May 2017 onward only, but http://www.malifaux-rankings.com/#/factions places them last. Like @skoatz said, I wouldn't call TT weak, but I'd disagree with them being a problem. The new toys may prove otherwise but up until that point it seems middle of the road-y at best. Edit, nifty list like @4thstringer gave us to spare you the hassle; Best position for Guild and TT respectively in 20+ people tournaments... 1/32 Troubleshooters 2 26/17 Enforcers Assemble 3/14 League of Extraordinary Henchmen 2017 6/11 Here be Dragons 2017 12/4 Vappafaux 2017 2/6 Zoned Out 13/21 Lost Love 5 7/3 Snowdown II 3/12 Infaux Overload 5/6 Broken Promises 2/11 Under the Hanging Tree - Hot off the Press 1/10 Pork's Rift 1/7 April Faux 18/11 Haul of Eggs 5 6/8 Spring Breach 2017 7/15 Cow Wars 4 4/16 Spring Showdown III 3/15 Heartfaux 2017 7/5 No Faux King Clue 9/19 Malfunctional 6/3 Pig Daddy 5/13 Under the Hanging Tree - Strength of the Fallen 14/13 English GT 2017 3/7 Scottish GT 17 3/14 Summer Showdown 14/20 Pigfaux 2 1/11 Tinker, Taelor, Soldier, Spy 8/12 Fluffy Bunny Roadkill 6/3 Boarfaux 2 12/1 Somer'Faux 1/18 Falldown III That's 1 First place and 3 top 3's total for TT vs Guild's 12 top 3's, 5 of which are #1. With TT scoring above Guild only 8 times out of 31. Guild averaging at 6.6th place and TT on 11.1.

The Storm is way too early to make any judgement calls over yet. It does something new and shiny so people'll have adjust to, which tends to immediately get people demanding nerfs. I'm not saying don't touch it, but if some weeks in you already start the background noise of "Nerf Nao" it's simply gonna echo through these forums as people look to. From what I've seen it doesn't seem more oppressive than Sonnia or Wong's blasta palooza, especially with their extra , only with your master in enemy lines instead of ~12", but then again I've only seen it four times and two of those matches was me playing her. I'm kind of afraid this new errata everything mindset is going to set in and the forums are going to morph from "Here's how you adjust" to "This is definitely too strong". 4 out of 5 times, if someone alphas Yass into my arms I can let him take one unit after which my crew takes him out. Giving him even just Melee Expert would be a huge blow to him, as a 12 SS unit with a 3/4/5 track. And if you want to top that off by removing flying all you've done is make sure that model will never see play again. I honestly feel most complaints stem from an "I don't like it" place rather than Yass actually being too strong. There's plenty of models I find a hassle, Yass included, but they're in no way something you can't play around. He's not an auto take, he doesn't render models redundant or completely useless, doesn't dominate tournaments, and what you lose to him is ultimately a choice you make depending on your positioning.

The issue people seem to have with him is that he swoops in and deletes a model or two before dying himself, while making it hard to position against that swoop because he can get everywhere. Lowering his defenses wouldn't stop people complaining in the slightest. Now admittedly, I genuinely think he is fine. Yeah, on the stronger end of the TT spectrum, but still well within the acceptable model range. He's fast and makes a lot of attacks, but folds against Armor, inco, high Df, nasty triggers and soulstones, leaving his target options fairly limited. This may just be my meta talking but you can't send Yass down the rabbit hole willy nilly and expect him to take anything of particular significance down. You'll get twoish midrange units, generally totaling Yasu's cost, after which the opposing crew will make sure to delete Yasu. If you play him more conservatively he can generally harass some more models to death over the course of the game, but that's not what people are complaining about and imo a fairly acceptable role to take. Most of the complaints I've had seem to be centered around him introducing a new playstyle people aren't quite used to in TT and once they've gotten familiar with it it's no more damaging than a well utilized Howard or Nekima.

@SAYNEI definitely get what you're saying about TT veering towards being staple central over each master having, well, their own staples. I'd say it's really not an issue though. Where some masters and factions like intricate machines with each model making it spin harder, others simply prefer the straightforward "good models". Tends to get less flashy results, but does so slightly more consistently. This is very much a case of personal preference. Some masters and players like theme and combos, others do better without. TT masters, being largely dual faction, will have to be compatible with generic models because both factions they dip into will have to gel with them. And in the current gamestate specifically they kind of need the slightly stronger generic options. Their masters tend to be weaker in just about all factions they dual in and in most of those factions are well on the bottom half of the power scale. Unless you want the entirety of TT to be scraping the bottom you'll need to give TT some good models to make up for their "okay" masters. With the influence of so many different factions you won't get a lot of overarching gameplay mechanics so they need to be good in a generic sense because you can't give each master their very own set of models. As for the forums (all forums, really) - they're naturally going to be something of an echo chamber. The people who post the most will have their opinion heard more often, conformation bias tends to run rampant, people look at the forums for strong things and thus never venture from those things as they keep parroting it.... In reality the problem areas are far more local-meta-bound and the preferred models player-bound.. I like Yasunori as much as the next guy but even thinking of alphastriking is punished hard in my meta. Some models that are hardly given a look here serve me brilliantly in actual games because they're perfectly specialized for whatever "niche" situation I encounter. I like and get a lot more out of certain models simply because their playstyle aligns better with mine. At least in TT most price ranges will have at least 3 models actively vying for attention - possibly because they're so detached in theme and synergy. Some models you'll hear more often because not taking terrain/schemes/matchups into account they're a bit better. Repeat that they're generically good often enough and people will subtly veer towards seeing that as the obvious and perhaps even only option.

Why should models of similar price be weaker or stronger based on their keywords? Being a Henchman lets you use Soulstones and equip two upgrades. That by itself tends to give a bit of a boost and is also why a lot of stronger beaters are enforcers; with SS use and more upgrades models like Yasunori would be absolute nightmares. Let 8 SS models be as strong as 8 SS models; being a henchman simply means you get to invest more SS into your model, be it through upgrades or general use.

I've always wondered why anyone'd use Fuhatsu when Lazarus exists. One SS extra, sure, but he can be pushed, has a built in Ml attack, blast on his (1), min damage of 3 and double blast at severe on an attack flip that can be cheated, auto-fire to make up for the possible refiring trigger, also has a self heal, more health, can copy an action... He's Fuhatsu but better in every single way.

That'd require me to take Yu, a TCW and Recalled Training, all so you'd get 1 extra attack on a with a 1/3/4 damage track. And some burning, sure, but unless you're at 10+ burning you won't have any use for that since it'll be gone before you get to use it. Shen just doesn't have the attacks to make use of this ability in any significant way. Instead of three 1/3/4 attacks I could simply spend Shen's AP on buffing other models who do about as much damage in Shen's 5 AP in 2 or 3.

I wouldn't take Yin or Yang even though I have enough upgrade space to run both. They're bland and subpar cards that struggle to compare to even a soulstone. I get that they didn't want Shenlong to become even stronger, but above all these cards are just very boring. They're not interesting alternatives, they're not intricate new gears in his machine, they're just kinda bad cards that lack any real point. As for ditching his normal upgrades; it's his upgrades that allow Shen to be usable in the first place. Without them he'd be one of if not the weakest masters in TT with a bad damage track and survivability, very little in the buffing department and even less to do with any of the conditions he might be gaining.

I'd say only fix it if it proves to be overpowered. As it is now it seems more like a weird little gimmick that doesn't particularly contribute to suddenly being too strong or awful to play against (though, admittedly, I've always been a fan of quirky interactions).

I just hope the erratas are kept as small as possible. Look at the models that are blatantly overpowered or NPE-y and don't bother with buffs unless it's for masters. Most bad models have plenty of great competition in their price range and really don't need to be dragged in there - at some point you're just cluttering up the game with erratas. They weren't up to par and such is life; can't all be winners. It's just masters that you can't ignore being bad because every one of them can be someone's first or only tie to the game. They're so integral to any crew that any one of them needs to be viable - maybe not competitively in all strats, but generally speaking. For our cheaper masters Yan got some great new toys so it's a bit too early to tell, Misaki didn't get any better at what she did and just got a situational alternative, Mei got some very lackluster upgrades for her already completely filled slots and the Brewmaster got cheaper Wesley and a situational cost reduction for one of his actions - nothing to actually fix or enhance his very lacking abilities and actions. The others are all fine, so I think it's most important to focus on the last three. For other models, maybe look at a model or so per faction that you can actually let fill a niche but beyond that I say leave it. Fuhatsu will always be an inferior Lazarus unless you give him giant numbers (min 3 wouldn't cut it realistically). High River Monks are poorly designed from the ground up. The most obvious buffs Ototo wants only turn him more and more into an Izamu reskin. Keep it to models who clearly have potential, only with something wonky in the details (see the LRM that got the vote last year). Don't go for models that make you go "That's garbage" - go for models that make you go "That's a waste". Archers and their contentious price range, Oiran and their unsuited Lure, Yamaziko and her low numbers where it matters...

That's a pretty big list you've got there, and it's plenty to play most TT masters. For new purchases, besides the amazing Yasunori and Low River Monks I'd suggest looking into the Shadow Emissary (who vies for Yu's near auto-include spot for every master) and maybe some Katanaka Snipers. I'd get the Emissary before any others, really. But anyways, going through your masters and what they love... Shenlong can take just about anything really, but looking at things that benefit the most from his presence you have... The Emissary+Low River Monk, who combined let you draw 3 cards a turn, Snipers who love the free focus Shen hands out and midranged beaters like Graves and the Lone Swordsman. All in all he can make any unit perform ten times better, though his effectiveness reaches some diminishing returns on models with a lot of their own 's and speed/pushes. Lynch is again one of those masters who can make anything shine, though he loves models that go through a lot of cards and discard a lot of them. The TTB are nearly impossible to leave out of a Lynch list, Yu allows Lynch a double Mulligan, the Lone Swordsman's discard is free if you have the aces, Yasunori is absolutely amazing with the 's everywhere. Beyond that he likes even more beatsticks and speed, as a Lynch list will tend to be focused around killing everything in sight. McCabe... well.... ^, really. He makes everything around him stronger and can work with anything, though he has a slight preference for a strong minion or two. Which neatly brings us to the Illuminated, who are great at their price point already and amazing when you get to activate them twice. You'll want a box of Guild Hounds with him though, as cheap significant activation are something no other TT master has access to. He's also greatly helped by the Shadow Emissary (who essentially becomes an 8 point model with McCabe), likes TTB and other sturdy minions who would benefit from strong attacks and works pretty well with slower units. You'll want him in games where you're expected to spread out more. Misaki likes a generalist crew that does their own thing while she flutters off. This tends to turn her crew into staple-central. The TTB, TCW, LRM, Yu, Snipers, Graves, Lone Swordsman... Anything that knows how to hold their own, really. Yan Lo likes Ancestors, who you're a tad low on, and tarpits (see ancestors). Besides the Ancestors he loves Komainu (who are sturdy for their price and also love Ancestors), Yu or the Emissary (I prefer Yu but with Yan's new upgrades it's a much tougher call) and some fast units that allow him more options for his Lightning Dances or pushy units that allow slower but strong units to take that place. And Mei is gonna be a tough one. She performs best with a very specialized crew using a lot of parts you don't have. With the Emissary, the Mechanical Porkchop and Toshiro you can churn out Komainu for days and Mei combined with heavy shooty crews can force opponents in. You can use her as a general support piece but she loves being in the thick of a gang of cheap constructs and will feel fairly underwhelming if you can't provide her with those. And beyond that there's the load of models who simply do great in general, with or without master-specific synergy. The Pathfinder is a good cheap shooting piece who can clutter up the board or go off schemerunning at will, the TTB are very sturdy for their price and good with scheme markers, TCW are always nice to have if you want to protect your pieces or root around in your toolbox for upgrades, Sun has a set of schemes that he's amazing in, Graves and the LS are great cheap beaters with each their own niche, the LRM will fit in any list, Yasunori is an amazing piece to field, Snipers love popping up whenever you find cover is lacking, Kang crushes Ressers all day every day... You're gonna have to get a feel for which models fit your playstyle best, naturally, but picking with the general themes of the masters' playstyles in mind will net you the best results (Shen likes units in his 6" bubble and thus fits well with models that also like being near others, McCabe likes them around 10" with some scheme runners out and about so look at models who are happy on their own, Lynch likes flippy models or models with discard effects, Yan Lo likes trapits, Mei likes constructs and Misaki does not care one bit).

If you're into the spirit theme and also want to go Kirai I'd suggest simply going Resser. I think Yan is better in TT but if going spirit TT doesn't hold a candle to Ressers. Edit; As for the Charm Warders, I don't know if it really needs to be fixed unless it proves to be broken. The Lotus Eaters effect was pointed out as lasting if it ever died during the open beta and that was kept as is. As it is now it's a nifty little trick that still costs you 5 SS. Seems fairenough-ish.

Not sure why you feel you need Goryo+Seishin. Not that they're bad, but if you're going for a budget-build there's much better things to buy, especially for things that serve any masters you'll get later on. "Shadow Emissary, Izamu, Toshiro and Charm Warders" is a great start, though I'd definitely try to get some Komainu too. Near Ancestors they get an automatic burning or slow, they have Ml6 as a 5 SS model, 40 MM base, very sturdy especially with healing... They're amazing models really, and Toshiro summons them to boot. In Izamu you'll have your amazing beatstick, can't imagine what someone is thinking in not considering him one of the best. The Emissary is your supporty pushbot, which all crews love, though if you're budgetting I could understand not getting it quite yet. It's the cost of a crewbox after all, and honestly not that special with Yan as his little totem loves to push the slower Ancestors, too. And Charm Warders are simply amazing models, especially with perma disguised Yan.

I've literally never heard of this being a point of complaint ever. I don't know how much AP your Shenlong player is pouring into going defensive, but he should be doing other things. The only way it could ever be perpetual would be if he ever took a defensive lasting to his next activation, and then next turn before his activation you tried hit him while he was carrying the Low River upgrade, and just keep repeating that every single turn. In which case it's all your fault for continuously attacking him without knowing you'll win before you even start the duel. A lot of models have a built in to their defenses and all of them can be reliably punched in the face because 's don't raise your duel total, only the odds of raising your duel total. But again, going after Shenlong is a mistake. Take down his crew.

As someone who doesn't treat Misaki as an integral part of my team but rather a fun little nuisance while my actual crew does all the heavy lifting, I don't care enough to invest in extra stones. She pokes and prods and slinks into the background or center again and again until she dies, and at that point she's generally killed enough SS worth of models and wasted enough AP that I'm happy with what I got for it. If I have some leftover stones, brilliant, I'll be at 3 or 4 SS cache. But beyond that I'm gonna need it on models that actually score me points. Which makes Risk and Reward, at least for me, a very uninteresting pick. Her upgrade slots tend to be filled with Recalled Training, Misdirection and Stalking Bisento already, and it's those upgrades that will get you the most out of her by far. Taking out one means tuning down her power significantly, and at that point you'll get less and less out of the extra SS you're saving for her. Your crew's the one hungry for stones, generally in the form of better hires.

Do note that she's a rather big investment if you're just starting out. You're gonna want at least one Jorogumo, Obsidian Oni and Asami's box, and at that point you really only have your summons sorted with your crew consisting of Asami, an Oni, Bettari and her totem. She wants an actual crew besides that.

@whodaresIf you're fine with the 4 SS price tag I don't see why you wouldn't use the Wastrel/Warder. They both get a free and the Warder even gives you a permanent Disguise for 1 SS extra. The only other viable option is the Clockwork Trap at 2 SS, though you'll miss out on defensive and a corpse to summon off of. Tengu and Akaname wouldn't drop a corpse marker, Shadow Effigy has Df6, Low River Monks could get a free defensive but it'd cost them a walk so you'll have less positioning options... Why would you even need to swap from Warders/Wastrels/Traps?

If you'd like some general tips on playing against Shenlong; Go after the key pieces of his crew. He is nothing without his crew while his crew is completely functional without him. Don't leave damage lying around, focus it all on one model at a time so as to keep them from being healed up and always know how far his 6" bubbles stretch.

If you have 8 's and 3 's you'd get 5 's, but end up flipping only 3 's because that is the maximum amount of cards you can flip per duel. The thing is though, even if he had 40 's can still only gain as much as the highest card. If you attacked with a Ml/Ca/Sh 6 model, you will always have a chance to at least tie the duel unless he uses his burning upgrade.

Glad to see an errata thread that isn't just a list of some fifty-odd buffs they'd like to see. That said though, I'd say TT is largely fine, balance-wise. Nothing springs out as gamebreaking or unhealthy for the game, and the couple of units that are useless tend to be useless because their entire design and direction is off, rather than them having the wrong numbers. For nerfs I'd really only say the Terracotta Warriors could see their TN's raised to 14ish? Make taking them an actual investment rather than a Might-as-well kind of thing. Giving Yasunori a min damage of 2 on a 12(13)SS model would completely kill it. I'd sooner go for a simple raise in TN's again to up the investment-factor and maybe restrict the Kodoku damage to +2, though I'd say he doesn't really need to be taken down a lot in the first place. Plenty of ways to interact with and punish him. For buffs I'd just like to see our weaker masters get some attention. Bad models you can ignore but you shouldn't be in a position where you're best of ignoring masters. Misaki should get the min damage on her Bisento upped to 3. For a Melee master to have such a pitiful damage track has always been ridiculous. Misaki seems best described as a one trick pony that can't even do that one trick well. And raise her Bisento's Rg to 3. She has a massive spear, you'd imagine that would actually get you some reach. Would allow her to better utilize her Ml7 and compliment her dive-bomb-y playstyle. And then maybe raise the SS cost of her new The Storm upgrade to 2 SS and let Fury of the Storm make all damage from Thunder not reducable. It'd allow her to do something about defensey models besides poking it with 2-3 blast damage hits hoping whatever you Thunder off of doesn't die before they do. Might give her an actual niche. The Brewmaster has been plagued by excessive need for set up. One of the simplest buffs, that would actually make a massive difference, would've been a on his Obey. Suddenly he needs less setup, giving set up becomes easier, and he has a reliable damage source through the models around him. But alas, I suppose an upgrade saying + would've been boring and now we're stuck with more set up to enable set up and a damage source that you can't rely on and doesn't even synergise with his Wp aura. Now the other option would've been to give this upgrade a to all duel totals against models with the Poison condition. It'd suddenly give a nice boost to his defenses as you can no longer attack him willy-nilly if you're poisoned, but if you're dedicating your high cards to it the Brewmaster will still fold. I guess it'd also pop up on Misdirection which I'd honestly say is fine but I suppose you could just give him a to his Df instead. It'd even compliment the poison-style Wyrd is desperately trying to push. That said though, it's still set up upon set up and I think we're best off looking for general solutions (besides the beautiful and elegantly simple -to-obey). Taking into account the little amount of space left on his card the one fix that needs to happen is for Kegger to be stuffed on his actual card. It might actually allow for taking some of the Tri Chi that Wyrd wants you to use together without forcing a TCW in every single list to get rid of a useless upgrade. And I can't imagine even looking at this upgrade if you're playing Gremlins. And with Kegger on his card, you could give him some actual useful abilities on Running Tab. Ideal would be some triggers to his existing actions (might help synergise with A Friendly Ear on s) or simply a brand new attack. Swill affects flips, Binge affects hands, Obey affects damage/positioning, Drinking Contest affects AP - ideally we'd get something else to attack resources. I'd like something like Shenlong's Blocked to prevent Soulstone use, further priming models for death and giving him another resource to fiddle with. Beyond these two there's very little I'd say needs to be stronger. I am feeling min damage 3 on Fuhatsu though. It'd give him an actual forte rather than being a more expensive Samurai.

If I'm up against a crew with good casting vs Df I can't just say start of game "Such is life, farewell Huggster". And if you need to rely on what Lynch stands close to I won't be having that Lynch for long. The TCW has to be there to keep Huggy from dying if it ever looks like he won't survive another activation. I've occasionally used this with Endless Hunger but even there with both costing 2 SS I got annoyed with having to TCW it up and quickly reverted back to Rising only.

I've tried it and while very powerful I'm not quite convinced. Rising Sun allowed you to plant Huggy in the center of whatever part of a crew you found annoying - with Ht3 and 3 that's a whole lot of models you can tickle. Add to that some horror duels or obeys whilst among enemy lines and you're just being an unholy terror that can be dragged back to life and into the party at any moment. A well used Huggy is something you can't ignore, which gets all the more annoying if he can then pop back at any point. Meanwhile with Cheating Bastard I was constantly forced to hold him back behind other units and with the so-so range on his Obey it was hard to get even a fraction of the use out of him. Cheating last naturally helped an insane amount but it didn't force actions out of my opponent the way an active Huggy did. I was lucky I haven't encounter ranged Casting as at Ht3 he really stands out. As someone who isn't a fan of just stowing a TCW in every list unless I have a specific plan with its upgrade swapping I don't like how I'll have to take one whenever I take this upgrade at the cost of far more focused models. Especially since this upgrade is only 1 SS, meaning you'll have to keep an extra stone just for swapping. I'd have gladly taken it as a 2 or maybe even 3 SS upgrade in a non-limited slot, but as it is now I get so much more disruption out of Huggy.

The upgrade's aura is honestly not particularly special, since if they're in that aura they're in Brewie's healing bubble, and if they're at any point 'd and somewhat closer they'll even be forced to heal about 4 wounds a turn. With Brewie's heal bubble and poison only ticking at set intervals I much prefer the control I get from the likes of Yasunori and Ama and such filling up my big unit slots and save AP wherever I can, not giving poison a second look because it takes stones and AP away from actually putting things into the ground. I used to occasionally take a Fermented Monk when Yu and Brewie could pull themselves up t1 but with this upgrade and Brewie's 0 saving me 3 SS it's been hard to justify him.

Yes. And I've still found that far too big an investment that other masters or even the Brewmaster with 12 SS' worth of active crew would've been better for. Especially now that Sun and a 2 SS Wesley are out.

I'm not sure taking a master to hire a certain model shows anything other than "you're probably better off bringing a better master". Which seems to be Brewie's catch phrase by now. And Fingers with the Brewmaster, Wesley and Yu or even the Emissary will be over half your list AND your master spent on support. He's not bad by any means but a 12 SS schemer that can only be taken with a master that shines when he primes models for the rest of his crew to take advantage of (kill) and lives through having his crew do all the heavy lifting just isn't a good fit. There's a handful of other masters I'd love to use him with, but alas, he's stuck with pretty much his worst fit. You'll want the Brewmaster in games that get you to bunch up, with schemes that favour killing. He's good at getting units killed and decent at keeping units from killing. That's pretty much his one and only thing. Get Yu to do some marker magic if you absolutely need to play with them for that second scheme and you have the games Brewmaster likes.