orkdork

First off, I basically totally agree with you, HOWEVER: When you are in control of the game, applying your models how you want to, specialist models shine. When your opponent is in control of the game, and you really need the cards to save you, generalists are often better.

I've not played with Coryphee yet, deciding early on to go the Acolyte + Rider route because I preferred the models at the time (the Coryphee have since grown on me) and play the long game, i.e. don't fight until turn 3, if possible. It works great against ranged/summoning opponents, where I could get ahead in schemes then hold them up with very hard to kill models (cass and rider) until the end of the game. However, when I tried my own Pandora, which is extremely aggressive, my Colette crew folded fast. So now I'm looking at having alpha-strike power of my own: Myranda -> Blessed/Cerberus and Coryphee. My models won't get here until next week, but I'll let you know my thoughts when they do! My old baseline crew (swapping models and working in IE as appropriate for S&S): Colette, Production, Choreo Cassandra (favorite model to play) 1 Acolyte Rider 1 Performers Fill with Angelica, more acolytes, more performers, the Captain, occasionally Hank, IEs My intended new baseline crew: Colette, Production, Choreo Cassandra 2 Coryphee Myranda, IE Fill with Angelica, Acolytes, Performers, Rider, Captain, Hank, IEs, etc...

Awesome! Thanks, Khyodee!

Lust seems like a wicked option for Pandora, even without Misery stacking (I really think Sorrows are a waste). My concern would be that tomes are already earmarked for 'dora and dopple. If I ran Lust, this would be my list: Pandora, AC, Voices, WoD Nekima Dopple Lilitu Lust Johan or Silurid 7 SS

Very close to my core as well. I do this for Pandora: Pandora, Voices, Aether Connection, On Wings of Darkness Nekima Doppleganger Lilitu Primordial Magic Then basically fill in with the very same stuff you seem to like. It's a super-flexible all-comers crew, and in my experience, far better than WP-bomb Pandora. I don't "mainboard" Johan at the moment, but only because I don't want the list to be an exact copy of my Lilith list

Please don't use Sonnia to heal/draw off of Purifying flame. It stops me from killing her and makes me lose yet again In all seriousness, I'm wondering if you guys aren't working the math out right. This is a really great option. It's not like Sonnia will do this every game, but it and the anti-SS aura are the two reasons I find her so hard to alpha.

The "dead better than paralyzed" argument reminds me of Pandora arguments around Box Opens vs. Voices. From my experience, it's a silly argument: Voices >> Box Opens in any game where my opponent knows how to play around my crew. Yeah, leave Pandora/Perdita unchecked and they'll kill stuff, but why would the opponent do that? When Perdita kills my stuff, I screwed up. It's not like she just gets free shots on things all day. Once the game steamrolls against me, sure, but until that tipping point, she's going to find it much, much harder to find targets. If there were a good Terrifying option, this trick would be outstanding. Using 1 AP and a low cheat for a paralyze at 12" range with no concern for cover on a Ca7? Sign me up! Is it always available? Of course not. But neither is peacebringer face-melting. Unless your table and opponent are both new

She can die, for sure, but it's so rarely the right play for your opponent UNLESS they win initiative and kill her in their first activation. That's not too likely, however, since you get so much control over your placement. I nearly always try to end her activation in engagement with a shooter and out of charge reach from beaters. You can't always do this, of course, especially if your opponent knows your crew well and plays to prevent it. If I find I messed up her placement, I'll often fly a dove in the face of the opposing beater so he can't charge.

Do you do this by default? If you do it, do you usually take one of the 12ss models as well (Howard, Rider..) ? Love the idea of 2 Acolytes, but running those and a 12ss model and cassandra simply requires too many points and I feel either Howard or Rider are kind of a must in most Arcanist lists. Whats your take on this? About S&M: Totally agreed I've been playing an inordinate amount of squatter's rights lately, so two acolytes for zone control has been very common. I actually don't know much about playing the other Arcanist crews. I'm 100% Colette since switching from Neverborn. I've made it work with just Johan, Cassandra and Acolytes for my offense, but I'm not convinced that it would be an "all-comers" build at all. As far as which beater, I think there are so many awesome options with great applications: Howard for a hyper-aggressive game, such as turn one Stage Presence to put Cassandra on their master, turn 2 or 3 stone the ram on prompt to reactivate Howard for charge + prompts + flurry for 5-9 attacks to alpha their master (depends on whether Colette needs to disappearing act herself, whether you fail some prompts, whether Howie needs re-positioning beyond just Nimble, and whether Cassandra can understudy prompt). If a dove can +Dmg... Joss vs. anything that hates Arc Axe. Captain for extreme utility and a relic hammer, whose 3" reach goes beautifully with the prompt push, and for constructs. Johan for a cheap relic hammer and Rebel Yell. Mech Rider for games where metal gamin will matter and where the action will mainly be turn 3+. 2/4/5 isn't really a beater, however. I'm personally still in the testing stage on these guys. Love them all. I never play without Cassandra, however. She is just the best So sticky, so slippery, and can really mess with projectile attack masters.

I'd like to know more about this 11 draw hand. Lilith with Wings of Darkness, puke worm and stoning for cards? That's the combination. It is incredible vs. anyone that can't make you discard.

I don't find I'm ever getting attacked by weaker attackers. My opponents are either trying to alpha her at the start of the turn (no southern charm up), or ignoring her as best they can to kill my heavier-hitters. Maybe it's about list context? I run 2 acolytes, so they're always getting basically all of the attention until they're dead.

I <3 Cassandra. I don't take S&M anymore (see my post on why). Understudy for prompt is super flexible. Colette is often lagging behind the team, so having Cass able to push Colette 3" is very nice, as is having Cass use an AP to basically extend Colette's prompt range by up to 9". For example, in Stake a Claim, being able to prompt something far up the field means that thing can be placing a claim marker each turn. Otherwise, she's super, duper fast, and Southern Charm is insanely good. When you want something to die in Malifaux, you're going to do it in one of two ways: cheat multiple attack flips on something with 3+ weak damage (most beaters, very common vs. hard to wound or other - damage flips), or cheat in severe damage (usually requires cheating the attack flip as well). If you can't cheat in the attack flip, neither method tends to work well. So then your opponent has to focus, which means they generally will have to be able to attack you without repositioning. Guess who gets a 4" push after each of her attacks, and therefore is nearly never going to be engaged unless she wants to be? Even more, after she does duck around that corner, if you don't engage her, she'll just nimble back around and charge your face. So she isn't losing any attacks, but you're probably losing an AP every time, which means you're probably not focusing, which means you can't cheat, so you won't do jack-all. FWIW, her "weak point" is her 5 severe damage. I consider her an "opportunistic" killer, meaning I'm not going to be throwing cheats on damage flips and attacks much because she doesn't fit either the "volume of 3+ damage hits" or the "cheat the damage flip" model very well. Even moderate damage cheats are going to be eating into your "prompt insurance" (cards in the 6-8 range used to cover failed prompts), and she has to share those with the other 2/4/* models Colette likes to take.

Unless my opponent has a lot of + attack flips built in, I've become pretty convinced that Smoke and Mirrors is a waste of a SS. Here's the basic reasoning why: If Cassandra doesn't have Southern Charm up, then it is very early in the turn, and we both have lots of cards. It's very rare at this point that I will win a Df duel AND know to have put in masks (via SS) or have that 13 mask to cheat. Unless my opponent attacks her with an attack 5 or less (which would be a strange early activation), I'm probably going to lose at least the first duel, and even the second. Smoke and Mirrors is definitely best used on the first duel, but am I really going to stone for masks on the assumption that my opponent doesn't have a 13 in hand? (Especially since without one, my opponent probably stoned for cards). If Cassandra does have Southern Charm up, then my opponent is probably going to completely ignore her. For the rare activations where a Southern Charm-buffed Cassandra is the correct target, my opponent will focus, which means that there is likely no second attack for her to avoid via Smoke and Mirrors, significantly reducing its value (and it is unlikely to trigger in the first place). As for why + attack flips built-in matters, that just means that my opponent is much more likely to attack her later in the turn without focusing, so there will more likely be a second attack to avoid AND the cheat hands will be low. And for the dubious anecdotal evidence, in my dozen+ Colette games thus far, it has NEVER triggered. Also, Cassandra has died only twice in that time, and only to Guild masters I'd not faced before.

Colette with nothing to support is very weak, so timing things to ensure you still have something good to prompt is important. Good news is that you only need one good prompt target, generally. Personally, I like to try to make turn one a safe turn. Use Colette's ap for doves, the rest for markers, and maybe get some slow out with your acolytes (hard to resist throwing them out, but it is important to keep them up for turns 2&3). on turn 2, you may well be looking at 2-3 doves, a mech rider, and a metal gamin all ready to out activate. If you can get your acolytes to go late in the turn, they will do lots of work on turn 2. You will ill also be in a great position to send out scheme runners with disappearing act to start turn 2 scoring.

The crew I was running was Colette (Arcane Reservoir), Cassandra (Practiced Production, Smoke & Mirrors), 2 Performers, 2 Mannequins, and 2 Coryphees. Plus a couple of other upgrades on Colette, swapping them out between encounters. So I'm going to suggest the obvious: december acolytes and Howie. It looks like you've basically got the crewbox plus Coryphees. It's good stuff, but it's not super versatile, which Colette's crew should be since she's such an awesome support master. But beyond that, I think your crew has a bad matchup vs. Nephilim due to black blood. Coryphee is a model I'd not likely want to play into Neverborn due to its vulnerability to black blood (1" reach and low Wds) and misery (Pandora's crew). (Speaking of which, goat says they have 2" reach, but that's not what I see. Is there an errata?) Also, 2 performers and 2 mannequins is a ton invested in pieces that are mostly about scheme running. Because of rehearsed and practiced production, I find scheme marker placement to be an almost foregone conclusion. Any mannequins and a 2nd performer are situational, imo. Great for the right board and S&S set, but in many games, it's too much investment in schemes. On the other hand, you don't need a tier 1 crew to beat Nephilim, as they're not tier 1 by any means. I think your existing crew just happens to have a bad matchup due to what black blood does to Coryphees (and mannequins). Oh, and tangled shadows makes charges not terribly important for Lilith's crew, so that awesome ability of Coryphee is diminished. Finally, if you guys are new to the game (which I don't know if you are), I would heartily recommend a thorough re-reading of Grow and Mature. It's easy stuff to get wrong, and a small misreading could make the abilities a lot stronger than they really are.

How do you compre Lilith and Colette in terms of who is better? They are so vastly different, where would you even begin? Objectively, the only thing you can really do is compare Cache sizes and Colettes is half that of Liliths which would imply that in terms of overall game balance Colette needs to be more expensive than Lilith and is therefore 'better'. Given that Lilith does almost the opposite to Colette, a comparison based on anything other than Cache size is very tricky. The former prevents your key pieces from doing what they need and pulls them out of position. The latter is very good at getting things where they need to go outside of activation and reposition them without actually moving. Seems to me that, without actually having played the match up myself, they counter each other in many ways. Could be a very interesting game to play out. I'd love to give that a shot some time. While it is true that comparing masters is hard, and there is no great way to do it, I think there is some grounds for comparison. Certainly, my personal experience with them is that Lilith does much more, but Colette has an incredible crew (acolytes and Cassandra are so very awesome). I am coming from Lilith to Colette, so I play Lilith better, but I think the comparison is pretty straight forward in this case. Both masters are bringing ap efficiency in a big way, but Lilith brings quite a lot more, doesn't require Los (huge), has rush of magic and wings of darkness, packs a powerful attack, and brings a ridiculous (0) action in illusionary forest. Rehearsed, prompt pushes, disappearing acts and trapdoor can add up to a lot of ap, but tangled shadows is just off the chain. Once you factor all the terrain, blocking and otherwise, that tangled shadows simply circumvents, you can be looking at 7+ ap of meaningful movement from a single ap! It is just bonkers. Then you still have the alpha shenanigans it provides, wicked vines ap denial, and that insane illusionary forest. When you look at the crews, I think you see it go the other way. Howie and the mech rider are obvious awesomeness, but I find myself most enamored with Cassandra and the Acolytes. The only real Neverborn standouts are Dopple and the puke worm. So yeah, from my experience, Colette isn't dominating the game nearly like Lilith is, but boy, the rest of the models feel so much stronger than the neverborn I came from. I do think both crews are awesome. and I do think that when you add up the ap gained/denied, Lilith ultimately does more than Colette, with no LOS required, AND brings a helluva sword

@Shadowfance: Funny you should mention wicked vines vs. Colette, as Colette doesn't care much about wicked vines. Prompt breaks it. Yeah, damage happens, but that's still nothing compared to losing a beater for a whole activation. Your point about Tangled Shadows on own dudes is very important. I've been terrorizing my buddies with Greg P's insane-o Lilith beater crew, and the 5" bubble that Lilith + Nekima projects around all my dudes is nuts (swap Nekima in and her 2" base + 3" reach means 5" of 3 Mi7 4/5/6 damage backed by an 11 draw hand). It's her go-to move, in my experience. As far as the Nephilim grow crew, I think it's a weak crew by comparison to Greg's crew. Even my old swampfiend Lilith crew outperforms the Nephilim crew considerably, in my experience (where Tangled Shadows was how to ensure Juju dies 4 times per game :P). All that is to say that I'd expect my Colette crew to tool a Nephilim grow crew (I happen to be picking up Colette to replace Lilith as my primary, since Lilith isn't the most fun for my opponents), as it can actually stand up to Greg's crew in a lot of cases (probably not turf war). OP, what's your Colette crew look like? My experience is that while Lilith is the better master, the rest of Colette's crew is quite a bit better than Lilith's.

Since you never know what order the rest of your deck is in, this is pretty useless for shaping your deck. If you do it blindly you would make your deck worse as often as not. At the very least you would need a simple card counting method to decide when to force a reshuffle, e.g. add 1 for every severe card and subtract 1 for every weak card flipped and do this is if you get higher than 6 (or whatever threshold). You can't reliably use it to stack the deck in your favour, but you can remove a deck that is poorly stacked. Thus I called it 'opportunistically'. If you never hit your target threshold, you'd just mill to the BJoker. But since you can choose to stop early, you CAN choose to quit when ahead.

Very exploitable. Rather than just milling out the black joker, you could also stop if you hit a run of low cards, such that you have "milled" more low than high. Basically, since you can choose when to stop (barring black joker), you could opportunistically use this the greatly change the probabilities in your favor. Not sure if it would be game breaking, but it wouldn't take much code to compute the potential impact. For that matter, a bit of machine learning could find a near perfect strategy pretty fast, after which some cleverness could probably simplify the near perfect strategy to a pretty damn good strategy that a human could actually carry out... Not sure how to fix it in the rules I suspect most folks would not like this.

Thanks, I'm glad you liked the episode. After thinking about it for a bit I would probably drop Johan (with Retributions Eye) and the Mysterious Effigy. If I think I'm going to need it I'll put Retributions Eye on Mr Graves and play with 1 less stone in my cache. You're basically trading a lot of utility for some more durable models and the ability to deny a large part of the board. I would advise you to play without them for a little bit and experiment, especially if you find yourself in a bit of a rut Greg After a couple games with the Walds, I tried just taking your version straight up, though with 2 tots instead of the effigy (don't have the effigy yet). I gotta say, the list seems stronger and even more fun to play. Effigy is a pretty clear upgrade, from what I can tell. I'll definitely pick it up when it comes out in plastic. And my opponent who faced the Walds version both games prior definitely thought the list got scarier with how you build it. Also, I totally agree with dropping living blade, especially with Nekima in the list. Thanks again!

I have the same problem. Got mine from the rider box.

Interesting. I can't imagine dropping nekima, now that my eyes have been opened to how much more reliable tangled shadows is as a beat stick delivery system than its typical use as delivering something to Lilith. Basically having a 5" bubble of 3AP MI7 4/5/6 death around every friendly model is... good? After this podcast and my games since, I can't really imagine going back to Zoraida except for nostalgia.

Definitely a great cast! I am curious what Greg would take out if he still ran two waldgeists. I wouldn't know how to play without them!

I mean the other player chooses to relent, not me. I'm seeing this as a weakness of obey, not a strength (it gives my opponent the choice, not me).

Hey all, New player here with a rules question I can't find the answer for (or if my search-fu was weak, feel free to let me know ). It is my understanding that if use my Zoraida to cast "Obey" on an enemy model, that while I control that enemy's action, the enemy model still treats its own crew as friendly and mine as enemies. Thus, if I use that model to attack, can the defender (controlled by the other player) choose to "relent" since it is being attacked by a friendly model? By that I mean the other player can choose to lose and get a tie (and therefore a -2 damage flip), as per these rules (pg. 27, callout box): "Attacking Friendly Models Models can target other friendly models with Actions. The effects of the Action might prohibit the usefulness of this tactic, but it can neverthe-less be done. Whenever two friendly models are engaged in an Opposed Duel, the defending friendly model may choose to lose the duel. Before any cards are flipped, the Defending model may choose to relent. When this happens, the Attacker flips as normal, and the Defender flips no cards, it is instead assumed that the Defender tied the Attacker’s final duel total, without any suits. The Defender may not declare Triggers when it relents to an Action in this way, however the Attacker may still declare Triggers." Seems pretty air-tight RAW to me that they could, but the vets in my group hadn't seen this interpretation. FWIW, they agreed, but it wasn't like "Oh yeah, that's a known one that we old-timers worked out YEARS ago!" Kindly appreciate any answers! Rock on! -Orkdork, Neverborn Newbie EDITED to clarify which player I think controls the choice to 'relent'