scarlett fever

I'm wary of taking Low River Yu outside of Shen/Terracotta simply because his healing/condition removal also adds a condition (slow, poison, burning) which makes it a bit of a pain. If you're just healing that's fine, just add and remove slow, but if you're trying to get rid of paralyse or something nastier you've got to swap it for one of those three.

Last game versus Lilith Ohagaru took out Nekima before she did anything. Fast Ohagaru with Recalled Training is a beautiful thing. Having said that Lilith can be a hell of a tough Master to face. The main thing I find is being wary of relying on too much synergy in a list versus her. Most Lilith players will keep that high card to whisk away a piece of your puzzle and unless you're playing Shenlong's milk-the-monk she will have card dominance over you. Anything you bring WP5 or under, if it's important to your plans expect it to be removed. Against a list like the above (not that you always know what they'll bring) I agree with Bighammer. Any of Ohagaru, Yasanouri, Lone Swordsman backed by Shenlong. Any of these you should be able to get the jump over her hitters and with good planning pull back and strike again. Obviously Lilith's primary weakness is WP. A Mei Komainu list could work, ball up and spam. Whilst I haven't tried Mei against her I have caused a Lilith player a heap of trouble with a Komainu in her face. Also Yin can be fairly rough for her with her - to Ca actions.

This has been on my mind as well. It's fairly common to come across lists that have that 'one thing' you just have to deal with, Killjoy, Nothing Beast, Langston, Nekima, so it's going to be more important to have something in your list to tie it up for turn 2-3 just in case. Whilst a couple of the strongest players in our meta have primary crews that are neutralise based (one plays Tara the other Zoraida) the past year I seem to have played either very scheme marker oriented or killy lists. Time for a change. I'm keen to try Shen+Yu in a more concentrated control style which I haven't done for some time, probably teamed with Yin and/or Tannen. Another thing that might see table time is the unpleasant Obey to Paralyse combos, Yin+Ama/Brewy/Huggy etc. McCabe slow spam lists perhaps. In terms of healing/tanking and just 'weathering the storm' I've had poor luck with that against really aggressive opponents. I've had good runs with entire HtK crews ticked up by Shen/Yu but when they meet tech or the real heavies they tend to melt, same with Yan Lo, although he's not a primary Master of mine. I'm also wary of tanking when schemes like accusation are in the pool. Still between Yan Lo and Mei we have some solid tank builds. Keen to get Brewy out again, I've played a number of games with him but I'm sure a useless pilot with him. I found I was building elaborate Rube Goldberg machines just to make his crew do something and they just got picked apart, however 2017 might be his year. Still difficult to see how he could hold his ground against a strong Zoraida crew, got to get some practice in.

That could be pretty fun with baiting. Yet to use Yasunouri but 1 AP 10" charge with flight and 5 attacks. Yep.

I'm pretty useless with Yan Lo and Brewy so interested in this thread. I used Yan Lo for the first time in ages the other day, game didn't finish and it looked likely a loss to me. But the model of the day seemed to be the Obisidian Oni. Not only did he provide excessive scrap markers for Toshiro but with three Ancestors with upgrades in the crew (Emissary, Chiaki, Toshiro) there were plenty of chances to heal.

I have yet to play my Asami against Viks but that could be interesting. Putting up temporary threats that need to be dealt with might be a good way of distracting them/leading them astray.

I've played against a few Viks players over the years and so far haven't found them too bad, but then I'm not playing against Mason! Take into account the Masters I can play well are Shenlong, Misaki and McCabe (though I'm rusty with him at the moment). Playing against Viks most often comes down to that charge/counter charge so the first turn of the game revolves around that, I find this to be the tensest(and most fun!) part of a Viks match-up. IIRC a best case charge from Blood is about 29" (Student place, Ash place, Oathkeeper, Charge), which seems like anywhere but there will be parts of the board they can't reach due to terrain so be aware where they can strike and either lure them or force them to wait. It's more usual to be expecting a 22" threat. Thunders have access to a lot of stuff that can equal these threat ranges or exploit terrain features to gain advantage. Favourite models are Ohagaru (ignore LoS, place to summons), Lone Swordsman (2" push/Reactivate), Sniper firing lanes, Archers (ignore LoS) and Misaki (Diving Charge, Stalked allowing for free walk actions towards the Stalked target). Playing McCabe allows for reactivating Dawn Serpents/Jorogumo/Austringers/Illuminated or Chiaki with Recalled Training and Glowing Sabre. Paired with her Incorporeal and other slingshot mechanics (Mounted Guard, Nimble, Fast if you have the Emissary) that's a huge threat-range ignoring much terrain. Playing Shenlong allows pretty much any scary threat to increase it's range and/or killing power. The last game I played against Viks I played Misaki vs Viks and managed to neutralise their threats pretty quick and still retain Misaki. I was lucky the terrain was in my favour but the thing that got me a kill on Blood and Bishop straight off was Diving Charge plus Misaki's free walk from Stalking Blood. Another key game I recall was Shenlong vs Viks in Squatters. In that game I managed to draw Blood to a far corner by sending Ama over there to clear the flank and take Squat markers. I lost Ama but this effectively took out Blood as she was now too far away to partake in the rest of the game and had no other models on that flank to do basic strat/scheme work. Viks are quite a psychological game, they want you to be afraid to do anything, to strike and wipe out the core of your crew, so don't get rattled and don't be too defensive either. No doubt after this little write up I'll face someone with Viks and get massacred. But then I'll have learnt something new!

I'm currently a big fan of the new Low River Monk incarnation. If I'm not fluffing about my goto 4/5 stone models are Low Monk, Brother and Yokai (don't currently a Terracotta stand-in so this pool will change when my Black Friday order arrives) and I always take some models at the low end to pad out activations/board control. I use peaceful waters a lot but not so much for the heal as the scheme marker drop. I'll often target enemy models or models at full wounds just to get the marker. Oni's Spirit is amazing for marker drop but it's a 10" Aura requring LoS so additional marker drops are still effective. I find Asami's summoning ephemeral enough that I still like a couple of low cost models to keep my activations up.

Let Yan Lo transition back to his true Faction. Hope I can make it to this, but still too early to tell.

Text on the cards says 'this upgrade does not count against this models upgrade limit'. Does that mean these upgrades can be attached to minions and peons?

I've tried it a couple of times but found it doesn't suit my play style. I love Asami's mobility but this locks her into Tannens orbit. He then needs to activate before her and you need to have the cards that want the boost. He's also very vulnerable to many crews. I find Tannens greatest asset for me tends to be cooler.

Good question. I've played the faction since m2e hit and I still feel like I ask this question of myself everyday. Pretty much agree with above. Shenlong and McCabe are my two favorite masters to play, but they do feel like they have a lot of crossover, sometimes I struggle to pick one over the other. It often comes down to whether I want the sabre (cut down arcanists/ressers) and austringers. Or if I want healing, blowing around scheme markers or if there's long open lanes to exploit with sniper, I also just love what the emissary does to boost Shenlongs killing potential with all those cards. They can both field elite crews, violent crews or scheme crews. Lynch fields ultra violence, plus he's adaptable. I feel like all three can be manipulated to fit any pool. Outside them I'd probably go Mei. She doesn't melt under Gremlin or Guild assault and has strong summoning options, she's just slow compared to the others. I'm enjoying Asami but she doesn't appear as flexible as the above options, certain schemes cramp her style. She's not a classical summoner either, which is fun but means she fills a different purpose. Still I'd use her over Lynch but that's just a preference thing rather than being objective. Misaki and Brewmaster are very niche, but there's nothing like a good run with misaki, total devastation. Yan Lo I don't have enough games to have a solid opinion, but he seems like he's flexible enough to be up there as well.

Corner Deployment, Guard the Stash vs Guild with those schemes makes me want a resilient but fast crew with plenty of interacts and pushes, so Shenlong would be my first pick. Add in either Emissary for cards and death (extra cards with Swordsman and Ohagaru are a game changer) or Yu to double down on Shenlong, one Low River is a must, Swordsman to take care of annoyances (edit:Actually Ohagaru might be better in this case, Swordsman has his triggers and Bulletpoof but Ohagaru could make a quick dash to tie-up/take-down Austringers/Sonnia/Perdita), Brothers to be generally tricksy with their potential Df7 and place. If I was to pick Leave your Mark then a Wandering River, though he'd have to cross a large distance into a smaller scoring field and avoid gunfire as he does. I'd pick schemes once I'd seen their crew as you should be able to achieve any of them with this crew as your base. Guard the Stash vs Guild makes me think of a Mei Feng summoning crew, Catch and Release and Take Prisoner also make me lean that way. The one thing that makes me question this approach is Corner Deployment, Mei's crew is slow compared to other Thunders. Lynch would be a good pick, 2 depleted for the Stash Markers and Illuminated. But his crew may melt a bit getting out of the corner vs Guild. I'd imagine Yan Lo could be solid too, but I've only had about 5 games with him so I'd likely loose vs a good player.

Seems like a tough pool to bring Asami to in my experience of her. I'd expect the opponent to pick Mark for Death and Hunting Party after they saw your Master so would try and play to that. I'd pick Hunting Party first off. The second choice would be between Public Demonstration, Convict Labour and Mark for Death. I'd expect the opponent to bring a fairly heavy enforcer/hench crew. If that's the case Public Demonstration could be a good pick, though you're risking giving up points to Hunting Party by doing so, so I'd concentrate on durable minions, Jurogumo, Serpent, Illuminated. Normally Convict Labour is pretty good for Asami, because Heavenly Design, however it can be easy to deny even with a relatively small crew, especially because the action will all be taking place on the centreline, so if there are too many models with too much reckless I'd forgo this, but if their crew is small a few flickering Tengu hurled to the extreme edges of the board could give a tough choice between Guarding the Stash and denying your Convict Labour. If they field a big crew they are basically giving you Hunting Party and then I might pick Mark for Death over the other two as it should be easy to set up, the downside being you'll have to weather the storm of damage from the rest of the crew over 5 turns (using AP up in interacts). For my crew I'd concentrate on Asami as more of a Support Master only summoning in at key points or to bring in the Jorogumo when you have the cards and know you can give them plenty of Flicker. Models I'd be thinking about, Sensei Yu - Can push models away from the Stash Markers, can push your own models out of engagement to remove Exhaust/Mark for Death or into range for Public Demonstration. Can buff your Jorogumo etc. Can get points from Hunting Party and with a (0) place from Asami will be plenty mobile and easy to disengage. Can move around Corpse and Scrap Markers to help buff your summon Flicker. Sidir - Can score off Hunting Party. With By Your Side can protect minions from Hunting Party. Durable and can hand out slow to an elite crew. Jorogumo, Serpent, Illuminated - Big bad ass minions that can move/charge reasonably fast for Public Demonstration as well as making it more difficult for the opponent to score off Hunting Party. Yokai - Can move really fast for Public Demonstration. Also has the ability to flicker itself to death in a tight spot if necessary. Vulnerable obviously. Ohaguro - Not using up all your big cards for summoning makes her more viable. Brilliant for Hunting Party if the opponent decides to deploy one Gremlin in the corner, her ability to ignore LoS and bounce charge from one model to another means she can pull off a surprise charge across a large section of the board. Add in her ability to jump to summons and Yu she becomes even more mobile. Amanjaku - The toss up between Hunting Party and the -Sh Aura might actually swing in Amanjaku's favour. You'll need at least 2 models to survive until the end of the game to score. Low River Monk - I might consider one back field keeping Asami's wounds up, Gremlins damage output is huge, though they become an obvious target for VP so you'd want to keep them safe (Jug Rocket, Reckless, not likely) or use them as a lure So my crew might look like; Asami - 5SS Pool, Heavenly Design, Equality Amanjaku - 3 Sensei Yu - Wandering River - 11 Ohagaru - Recalled Training - 9 Jorogumo - 9 Illuminated - 7 Yokai - 5 Pick Public Demonstration and Hunting Party. If you have the opportunity to set up a juicy Jorogumo summon with plenty of Corpse do so. First turn inch up in the Sh bubble about 6" short of the Centre of the board. Load your hand to weather turn 2. Turn 2 put up bubble and perhaps throw out a couple of Tengu in the backfield for activation control and scheme markers for Asami to heal off later. Wait out as long as possible then make a rush for Public Demonstration and Guard the Stash points. Turn 3 pull back to the stash with most models but throw out Ohagaru for Hunting Party VP. Turn 4 everything turns to custard, admit defeat and complain about how Gremlins are broken. Admit you got your tactics from some random on the forums who didn't know what they were talking about, shake hands, leave swearing under your breath.

I get the distinct impression brewmaster's rules were written whilst drunk. Nice to see some clarification to core rules, good doc.

It's true the Nicodem games were absurd. But if that's the master they've chosen they've got to start somewhere. Though perhaps with the potential to summon the entire faction it's not everyone's first choice.

The only Master I've never seen played outside of wave four is Ramos, though I've seen plenty of Howard Langstons so he's lurking somewhere. Also only seen Mah, Wong and Nicodem played in beginner games.

I'm not intending to rehash the arguement at all and there are a number of eloquent positions for the treatment of the rules as cylinders (such as the one below) at the beginning of the thread. I fully realise that height is an abstract characteristic. It's just difficult and takes time to argue your position if there is nothing in the FAQ to back it up. I've come across this multiple times and having to dredge up this thread to prove it is not ideal, that's all. In my experience it can go either way, as can be shown by the many eloquent and well-versed people disagreeing at the start of the thread. Obviously you haven't had this issue traveling between gaming groups, which is fine also.

Yes, but it hinges on this answer from Justin deep in this thread. I was in a tournament yesterday and couldn't convince anyone that this is how it's played (including TO), because it's equally easy to read the rules as defining a cylinder. Of course I played to the cylinder rules instead but this is not an ideal situation.

Necessary necro. I'm writing in this thread because it's the one all other similar threads reference (being that Justin replied in it). This came up in a game again today and it really needs an FAQ. Pretty please.

Crazy news. I came to Malifaux at the end of 1.5 and found myself quickly dragged down the rabbit hole. M2e seemed to build from strength to strength, culminating in the fantastic revisit of Schemes in gg2016 and what looks to be to be fairly extensive design corner exploration in Ripples. It's taken up more of my life and thought processes than I care to admit. I was always intrigued by the tidbits of design theory I picked from you through the forum, podcasts, blogs and the nuggets in Drawing Dead (sad that this rolled over, but I understand, life) and have to say this makes me equally interested as to where you'll head next. You also brought a thoughtful and diplomatic hand to the community at large (thinking forum here). In my insignificant mind M2e can hold it's head up as the most engaging, balanced, strategic tabletop game I've had the pleasure to play. I believe you can wear a significant part of the responsibility for that on your shoulders. And kudos to Nathan and Eric for handing you the reins.

Agreed, I use the Low River fairly regularly but not High. They seem pretty solid with the new Upgrade. Healing is one thing but dropping scheme markers as well, wow. And Fuhatsu feels like he's lost a bit of flavour. He was pretty under par but I feel like just whacking on a melee attack (with a very solid spread) is a dull compromise. Not that I won't be taking it anyway, but, y'know. Overall this book looks to be **** exciting, can't wait to get stuff on the table.

The main difference between Mei in Thunders and Arcanists is the summoning engine as stated. Bring Toshiro then your choice of Emissary, Mechanical Porkchop and Emberling for Scrap Markers. Then of course it's just access to the general Thunder goodness rather than specific synergies. Beyond that I think it might be more what options she brings to Thunders, Armour, AntiArmour, Undead/Construct counters and the big one versus most Guild and Gremlins, Vent Steam.

To quote the full text. Shenlong's Monk of Many Styles "Choose a Limited Upgrade with the Restriction of Shenlong. If another friendly model has the chosen upgrade attached, discard it. This model may discard a Limited Upgrade attached to attach the chosen Upgrade." Sensei Yu's Journeyman of the Four Styles. "If a friendly Shenlong discards an Upgrade, this model may immediately attach it ignoring all restrictions. If this model has more than one Limited Upgrade attached, it must immediately discard one of them." So Shenlong has Wandering River Style attached and performs Monk of Many Styles, he chooses the Wandering River Style Upgrade, which is currently not attached to another friendly model. He discards one copy of Wandering River Style to attach the second copy of Wandering River Style. The first copy discarded attaches to Sensei Yu. So maybe it's just me and I've only played Shenlong 15 times in tourneys and only in Australia and New Zealand, though I did play him 6 times in a row at the awesome Twatifaux, which had 50 competitors. However for what it's worth my tournament experience of Shenlong is thus. He is a complex Master involving a heap of condition switching and some of his interactions dig into the corners of play, so whilst Iceman says he wouldn't do anything that he feels would 'handicap' his play, in may experience the more complex corner interactions handicap my play and enjoyment against many opponents. I'd like to believe that I'm not a slow player, I purposely play Shenlong very fast in tournaments now, describe every interaction I'm doing out loud and try to give my self just a couple of 'thought-pauses' per game. However I do find myself answering a lot of questions and the more I play at the edges of the game the more difficult the conversations can become in the heat of a game and an opponent can sometimes feel a bit 'cheated'. This is totally different against my regular opponents as we have mutual trust, so even if they don't understand immediately they'll either accept and keep playing or we'll discuss it and they'll understand. The upside of all this is if I'm finding my game going this way, it becomes less fun and I'll start to avoid the more janky rulings. And as for playing to win in a tournament(unless me or my opponent is going for ultraviolence play), I should start looking to get my VP early in case the game times out before turn 5. Which again starts to feel janky. But obviously these are just my personal experiences/feelings. Again, apologies over the initial post as this Defensive interaction is fairly unavoidable in general Shenlong play. Which invalidates much of what I've said, ha, but doesn't change the fact that I try to avoid the more corner case rulings when possible. But great podcast. One thing I'd like to point out from the cast though is it's actually bloody hard to get Reactivate off Tara as she doesn't actually gain the Reactivate Condition until all her other models have activated. Before this she gains the condition Eternal. So you can only try to get it if you out-activate her and play Shenlong after her.

Fair points, it was a poorly formed post from me and worded slightly abrasively. It's not that I think the rules interactions are cheesy or unfair, it's that it can can be seen as such and can change the tone of a game, which is more difficult to manage in a tournament where I'm going to be playing harder to begin with. I think some people are more heavily into exploring the finer intricacies of the rules, which Malifaux really caters to, and enjoy these discoveries. I certainly do and the stronger players in the scenes I've been in do too. But I've had some people almost look at me like I'm cheating when I play Shenlong, simply because you have to play so fast to get all your interactions happening and it can be completely baffling for an opponent. I'm always careful to give a running commentary as I play but it doesn't stop the bemused looks as there's a lot to take in. So I do try to gauge my opponent in tournaments to some degree as when these 'teachings' become argumentative they slow down the game and stop me enjoying it. Having said that I realise that I was wrong about Defensive, there is no way to avoid this with the way Shenlong plays, the rules are the rules, good call. And I don't believe the upgrade should be rare 1, it's that if Shenlong chooses to attach the Upgrade he is already carrying then both him and Yu end up with the same Upgrade, another thing that can require some explanation. However a good way to help me explain this might be to get additional copies of the Upgrades. All just my subjective opinion of course.