moxypoo

Tried this once, and it's really brutal. For added fun, take Pariah of Iron and the Brutal Effigy for more than twice the brutality! Brutal Effigy can either replace Tally Sheet or let you draw 2 cards for every killed model, which gets out of hand pretty quickly.

I can say the same thing! Great minds (or at least crazy ones ) think alike haha. My point may have been a little unclear: when I play the DE, it's going after multiple weaker models instead of chasing down, say, a lone Silurid or Necropunk. With its 50mm base and 3" engagement range, your opponent has to keep models > ~8" apart for the DE to be unable to engage multiple models. Our difference in opinion may also be from a difference in playstyle. I've observed that a lot of people send 10+SS models to fight the enemy 10+SS model 1 on 1; however, my motto is that "there's no kill like overkill." That's a bit of an exaggeration, but if I want to kill Howard, for example, he's going to have to deal with twice his SS cost in models. I don't like to gamble and want to be assured that I can kill an enemy model when it needs to die. My style is also more of a control/passive style, and I only spend AP on killing models that I predict will score my opponent VP or advance his board position. I also use Levy as my assassin - a lot of high cost models rely on Armor to protect them, so Levy eats them alive and my other heavy hitters can rampage unchecked. So that's why I use the DE to bully multiple models half its cost rather than sending it to fight a single high-cost enemy model; if I can tie up a bunch of models with a DE but not kill a single one the entire game, I'm happy with the DE's performance. Exactly. The DE is great at smashing multiple weaker models (especially if their weak damage is 1 or 2), while Killjoy is better at eliminating a single high value target. I certainly use both models, but in different situations. I wanted to add one more point about Leveticus in Reconnoiter. I think that Desolate Soul on Levy is an auto-include upgrade with this strategy. In my experience, many players will take summoners for Reconnoiter, and these masters tend to summon moderately to heavily damaged models, making them easy prey for Unmaking and Desolate Warping. Getting a two model swing (turning an enemy model into an Abomination) can really mess up an opponent's game plan for Reconnoiter points.

Specter, I think you're in my head stealing my thoughts...haha I agree that people don't give the Desolation Engine it's due, and I think this stems from the fact that most people want it to go toe to toe with the likes of a Peacekeeper, Howard, or a Rail Golem. The DE generally wants to be picking on models in the 5-7 SS range that it can easily massacre and that can't do much to kill it in return. It's a huge distraction, because the enemy MUST kill it or it will wreak havoc. The key is to support it properly and keep in mind that it really only "costs" 5SS (fuzzy math, I know). My summoning list is Leveticus and Rusty with Desolate Soul, a DE, and A&D (10SS remaining to tailor for the schemes more). A&D keeps Rusty out of melee and generally makes a nuisance of itself, while Rusty obliterates things and hopefully summons Abominations. The DE attempts to engage and tie up enemy models while Leveticus shoots into combat (if he hits the DE, who cares? The DE gets a free attack and will almost always heal at least as much damage as he takes from Unnmaking). Your opponent has to be very wary of any of these models striking the killing blow, because they all have Desolate Warping. The one strategy I commonly run my Levy summoning list in is Reconnoiter. You gain a 2 model swing in that table quarter most times you kill an enemy model, which is huge for gaining Reconnoiter points. Your opponent also has to keep in mind that killing the DE increases your scoring model count by 1 in that quarter, a mistake I've seen more than once. If I'm feeling particularly saucy, I'll bring in a 3 Malifaux Rat/Obedient Wretch package, because it turns into 2 scoring models turn one, and unless your opponent sends a heavy hitter to quickly annihilate it, can quickly overwhelm a table quarter with no outside support.

I think Tom hit the nail on the head in his earlier post: having a plan for all your Rats will greatly speed up the game and reduce boredom. Since Rats generally have very simple activations (make a Rat King, move, or attack), I've found it pretty easy to figure out exactly what they're going to do while my opponent activates a model. Also, my game plan generally revolves around making as many Rat Kings as possible rather than having a huge swarm of Rats, which reduces the number of models I'm dealing with. I'll generally only keep individual Rats around to give my Rat Catchers armor. All this adds up to my games not taking much longer than when I'm playing any other master (with the exception of lists where I have 4 or 5 models total, which obvious don't take long to play). Hamelin also plays really well with an elite crew in which every model can do it's own thing, because he can shut down enemy models and can give extra AP (Obey) to models with powerful (1) actions. I've had some good success with running him as a control master and taking a bunch of models like Sue, Taelor, and Bishop. The Boondoggles and MissingNo also add a lot to his control element (assuming they don't change drastically before they're released). Having a specific plan with every model before it activates is generally a good thing, and I think it improves your play overall by allowing you to plan further into the future. For example, Obeying a model and then having to read the entire card obviously sucks up a ton of time. In my opinion, you should know exactly what you want to do before you actually cast Obey. People will definitely have different opinions than me, and I'm not trying to make it sound like anyone is wrong! But I think people will enjoy Hamelin more once they become smoother while playing him.

Hey 66, welcome to this side of the breach! 1. Aside from the starter box, you'll need the Malifaux 2nd ed rules manual ($15) (here). This will give you all the rules for the game, and the crew box will come with cards for every model in it. The alternative if you want to see the rules for other models is to buy the Malifaux 2nd edition rule book ($40) and Malifaux 2E: Crossroads ($45) (here). These two books will give you the full rules for the game and the rules for every model currently in the game plus a whole bunch of backstory, whereas the Rules Manual only gives you the game rules. Edit: Forgot the deck of playing cards! That's important since Malifaux uses cards instead of dice. 2. This link takes you to the webstore where you can see the CAD renderings for all the models currently in plastic. Wyrd doesn't show painted pictures of their models in their webstore for some reason, but the CAD renderings are very faithful to the final model. 3. As far as I know, there's no tablet support. 4. Your best bet is to grab Malifaux 2nd edition rule book and Malifaux 2E: Crossroads since you'll have the rules for every model. Alternatively, check out Pullmyfinger: this is a fan controlled wiki that has very good descriptions of all the model in the game and how they play. It's a great resource for new players! One alternative is to buy both the Wave 1 and Wave 2 arsenal decks for a particular faction you find interesting (~$15 total) (here). There are two arsenal decks for each faction, and the combination of both will give you all the rules for everything in that particular faction. Note that models always come with their rules card, but the arsenal decks are more efficient if you want an entire faction. However, they would add up in cost quickly if you wanted multiple factions; therefore, I would recommend Malifaux 2nd edition rule book and Malifaux 2E: Crossroads if you simply wanted to see all the models. Hope this helps, and feel free to PM if you have any questions!

That's the impression I got too, and I think it allows for some neat character development. I love the artwork we've seen for the other members of Jack's crew, and I own the new plastic Hanged (which are excellent by the way), so I can't wait for the box to be released. Plastic Jack Daw will find use as something - avatar maybe?

If winning was simply based on being able to accurately counter your opponent's list, Ten Thunders would probably be the best faction since (in my opinion) their masters are the most different from each other compared to any other factions, with Outcasts being a close second. Aaron and Sybarite bring up good points in that you shouldn't tailor a list against your opponent but instead should tailor it to complete your strategies and schemes and that higher numbers of people playing a particular master/faction equal more wins with that master/faction. I'll use a Magic the Gathering analogy since I have the most competitive experience with that game. Every format has a series of popular decks that the vast majority of people play. Many people simply get the deck list from the internet and expect to win using it, but when you actually look at tournament standings, the same players generally win a lot of major tournaments, indicating that player skill generally trumps deck building. We're probably seeing a similar thing in Malifaux as the tournament scene is growing - people read on the internet that Leveticus/Collette/whomever is super powerful and decide to play that master for an easy win, but the best players generally still win the major tournaments. This effect is definitely part of the popularity of some masters/factions. You also have to consider things like accessibility of models and how complex a master's playstyle is.

For some reason, I've always thought that the Main Breach was somewhere in the American southwest, but for the life of me I can't remember what I read to make me think that. I'll have to reread all the 1.5 books and see if I can figure out where that thought came from. Definitely some interesting discussion about the backstory in this thread and the one TMOD linked to!

Well, it's official. I'm not going to have friends anymore since I'm going to use this next time I play Zoraida. EDIT: Sorry to burst everyone's bubble, but the Taxidermist can only used the Skinned trigger when damaging enemy models. I'm sad now... I also really like the idea of using Vasilisa, Stitched, and Wicked Dolls together to get a ton of utility from the Stitched. Completely forgot about the Wicked Doll's Healing ability that also gives on actions outside the target's activation. I've been comparing Zoraida to Hamelin (I'm primarily an Outcast player), and one observation I've made with Hamelin with his upgrade that gives Obey, is that he loves models with strong (1) actions. For example, after your opponent beats on a Rat King, have Hamelin Obey it to use Rat Problem to turn into a Rat Catcher and a Malifaux Rat; the look on your opponent's face will be priceless. It seems like Zoraida also wants models with strong (1) actions, especially since she can support them better than Hamelin with all the cards she can draw.

I've been running a campaign that started with Vasilisa and two Stitched Together and worked up to Zoraida as the leader, and it's a really strong combination. Since Zoraida can draw so many cards, you can generally out-compete your opponent with Gamble Your Life, and Obey lets you use it often. If you can work out a way (Nurse maybe?) to bring in some healing, the Stitched will be extremely difficult to take down. I've found the key to using them is to make sure you win the Gable Your Life duels, and all the extra cards Zoraida draws really helps in this regard. For only 6SS each, I think the Stitched make a really nice combo with Zoraida. However, I haven't tried Wicked Dolls with her yet.

Honestly, it's a rare miss from me, but only because I love the original sculpt so much. I've always pictured Jack as sombre and menacing, although the new story in Crossroads doesn't support this view. This new sculpt definitely supports that story well, but I like the original better. That said, I'm still going to buy the box when it comes out anyway...

It would be 7/8/10 I believe. The starting damage code is 1/2/4 if I remember correctly, so +2 from Nurse, +2 from being engaged with another model, and +2 from Sweetbreads for a total of +6 damage.

I've just started playing Zoraida but I have lots of experience with Teddy (Leveticus) and Baby Kade (Hamelin). I've yet to try Baby Kade out with Zoraida, but I can see him working really well, since he's so easy to hide. Then Zoraida can Obey him to to move out from cover where he can start slaughtering enemy models who don't see him coming. Plus, with the Nurse's +2 damage trigger, Sweetbreads, and having his target engaged with another model, Kade is doing 7 damage minimum per hit. Not much can survive that in this game! The major downside I can see is that Kade is fairly fragile, so for durability, I would choose the Hooded Rider or Teddy I think. This thread has been really informative for a fledgling Neverborn player!

I have to admit that I just skimmed the thread before posting. Apologies for reiterating your point!

In my experience, Horror Lists can work well provided they're not solely reliant on preventing the opponent from doing anything. As long as you have the models available to complete you strategy/schemes you should do fine. If you create a Horror list with the expectation that your opponent's models will be perpetually paralyzed, I think you might be disappointed. However, if you have the mentality that frequent Horror duels will drain your opponent's hand and provide disincentive to attack your models, then you'll probably be pleased! Most players won't risk attacking a Terrifying model unless they have a card in hand that allows them to pass the Horror duel, so combining lots of Horror duels with discard effects can be strong. As long as you consider Terrifying as more of a card drain ability, you can certainly have success with Horror lists. I'm basing this on experience with some Neverborn masters and messing around with Jack Daw Horror lists.

Huh, no idea how I missed that in the FAQ. Maybe I need to work on learning to read...

You're both gentlemen and scholars! That was lightning fast haha. #2 was the answer I was leaning towards as well, but I just wanted to make sure.

I'm starting to use Nurses with Jack Daw and Zoraida, and an interesting situation came up: what happens if a Nurse tags a model with both the (Hallucinogens) and (Uppers) triggers with Take Your Meds in the same turn? Hallucinogens says, "This model's Ml attack actions deal +2 damage. This model may only declare Ml actions." Uppers states, "This model gains Wk +2 and may only declare Walk and Interact actions. I can see a few possibilities. 1. The model can take Walk, Interact, and Ml actions. 2. The model cannot take any actions. 3. Others? Some help with this would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance.

I want to touch on another point that's only been loosely discussed so far: the meta. Obviously different locations will have different metas, but it seems that the really big tournaments tend to have a similar meta regardless of location in the world. I played competitive Magic: the Gathering for a really long time when I was younger. For those who don't (or haven't) played MTG, a new block of cards is released every year and the most popular format allows you to make decks from the most recent two blocks. Therefore, half of the cards for the most popular format rotate out every year. These fairly rapid rotations provide constant meta changes that aren't particularly feasible in a miniatures game. However, the meta in MTG generally consists of 3ish top decks in a given "season," with the majority of competitive players playing one of the top decks. Inevitably, someone will construct a new deck that hard counters the current most popular deck, leading to a decrease in popularity of the most popular deck. This tends to repeat as new cards are released. However, on rare occasion, a deck will be built that has no hard counter, and Wizards of the Coast drops the banhammer to smooth out the meta. To bring this analogy to Malifaux: if Leveticus is currently the most popular, powerful master, then someone will figure out a hard counter to him and many tournament players will begin to bring the hard counter list, making Levy lists less powerful. However, if Levy is truly overpowered, then it's unlikely that a hard counter will be discovered. I'm interested to see how things pan out, but for now, we have to consider that the Malifaux meta is still in a state of massive transition with only about 70% (just a rough estimate, would have to actually go count for an accurate number) of current crews released in plastic. As more crews become accessible, I think we'll see many other masters rise and fall. I predict this discussion will be repeated focusing on a few other unreleased masters.

As usual, HD gives really great advice! I'll emphasize the fact that she's a big target - when I use Lady Liega, she has a giant neon sign over her head reading, "KILL ME FIRST!" You can actually use this to your advantage in a big way by using some fun human psychology. In my experience, the first time opponents play against her, they don't realize how much it sucks being unable to cheat. So they ignore her for a little while, and you use her to great effect. However, next time the same opponent plays against Liega, she's target #1. If you apply just the right amount of resources and clever movement/hiding, you can make the opponent waste an enormous amount of resources (AP, cards, and SS) trying to kill her, even if she isn't really impacting the game much. Liega is definitely worth it in most Jack Daw lists, especially if you're going for a heavy passive control style (i.e. lots of Terrifying and things like that) or just a normal themed list. However, if you play a heavy discard style, Liega loses value, because being unable to cheat is meaningless if you have no control cards. In that case, it seems like the Malifaux Child is the better totem choice.

Thanks for the clarification! Are the records of all those players listed anywhere? I'd be interested to see them if they're available.

This is an important point I think. Philosophical arguments relating to a game aren't useful unless they're based on empirical data, which is why Justin always said that battle reports carried much more weight than theory during the beta tests. Also, everyone has differing opinions of what's overpowered, and different metas will have various "OP" units. To illustrate this, I'll piggyback on one of Fetid's posts from earlier in the thread when he discussed how he thinks Rotten Belles ARE NOT too powerful, while also mentioning that he thinks Jacob Lynch IS too powerful. My opinion on these models is exactly the opposite - I've never had a problem with Lynch but I think 6SS (or adding a Rare 3?) would be a more appropriate cost for Rotten Belles. Neither of us is more correct than the other, but it's important to note the underlying premise that errata in the absence of overwhelming data is BAD. Extensive errata is always going to lead to unforeseen ripple effects, which is most likely why Wyrd decided to test as many models as possible during the playtest rather than focusing on a small subset. Warhammer 40k releases each faction independently of each other, and it's known as having atrocious balance. Going back and slapping errata on a small subset of models will obviously alter many of their interactions, and the consequences will not be readily apparent without more extensive playtesting. My stance is that overwhelming evidence must be in hand before cuddling models. One also can't equate "ubiquitous" with "overpowered." I believe Icemyn mentioned that Levy was used by 20% of the Outcast players at Adepticon earlier in the thread. But that number by itself means nothing. There are lots of other factors involved, such as the fact that his crew was recently released (and it's awesome!) and that he's widely considered to be top tier/OP. How many of those players who took Levy thought, "I want to win, and Levy is considered to be one of the best masters, so I'll take him!" This leads to the fact that there's always netlisting/netdecking occurring in games, which will account for some non-trivial number of people playing the master/deck perceived to be the best. In my experience, great players almost always beat poor players with great lists, so I would be interested to see the records of all those Levy players at Adepticon. If Levy is indeed OP, then the top spots should be filled with Levy players (I don't know if they are or not since I haven't seen the Adepticon results). The UK tournament results I've seen seem to support that the better players will win almost regardless of master. Now, I'm probably known as an Outcast/Levy player on these boards, so please don't think I'm saying, "Don't cuddle my favorite master!" If enough data supports Levy being OP, then I'll fully support a cuddle. My main point is that Wyrd should be stingy with the cuddle bat, because frequent and/or extensive errata can do serious damage to a game.

Give it a try! CougDyver is an excellent Ramos player, and I'm sure he could give you additional advice and tactics. To be honest, I've never played Levy against a leaping heavy crew, but I can see it being pretty effective. Just make absolutely sure you can kill the Waif if you leap out of hiding!

You do have a point, but it's really about threat overload. For example, when CougDyver plays Ramos against my Levy, I'm dealing with reactivating Howard, Joss, and a handful of summoned Spiders (with maybe a swarm) in my face at the same time. If all Levy has to deal with is a couple of half dead spiders, then you're absolutely correct! Ramos can provide a lot of target saturation, so a few spiders can run away to do schemes while the rest engage Levy or clog up the board. Plus, they can swarm together to provide a threat that you can't really ignore. It seems the trick is to go all out on summoning as many spiders as you can since Ramos can win the attrition war (1AP to summon 3 spiders, while Levy can get 1 Abomination per AP at best).

I think we may be using a different definition of finesse here. I'm using the definition "delicate and subtle performance/interaction/abilities, etc." The reason I class Tara this way is because 1) she has a much steeper learning curve than a lot of other masters, and 2) her abilities and actions are intertwined in subtle ways. She doesn't just smash things like the Viks or Levy, and there's a lot more planning, activation order, and considerations to account for. For example, giving the enemy models Fast to provide buffs to your own units - that sort of thing takes a delicate touch since you can easily provide your opponent a larger benefit than yourself. I consider masters like Jack Daw as finesse masters, because there are multiple unclear paths to winning. Masters like Sonnia Criid I wouldn't consider finesse masters, because they dominate one specific aspect of the game, so their path is very clear. If you don't see Tara as requiring finesse, I'm interested which masters you think require more finesse?