Yan lo and low river monks

[Kraye]

As the low river monks can add conditions can they give Yan lo a Chi?

[Nikodemus]

They don't add conditions. What makes you think they do? Their main attack removes conditions.

[Kraye]

I missed that, am at work and just thinking about interactions. Thanks!

[Dassenkop]

I was hoping that this was the question whether Monks contribute anything in a Yan Lo crew?

I can see them being first turn targets for Yan Lo to increase his Chi and than, potentially, have Toshiro summon an Ashigaru from its corpse.

[Kogan Style]

I think they are useful beyond Chi creation. Their heal spell will heal the damaged models that Toshiro would summon, and can drop markers for free if you hit the trigger. 

going defensive for free is a real control hand saver, especially as Yan gets quite hungry for cards in hand if you go down the MUST HAVE 3 CHI TURN 1 OR ITS GAME OVER MAN! GAME. OVER

I don't think its game over, I don't think its even the most optimal use of Yan's first go.

 

[Mutter]

1 hour ago, Kogan Style said:

I don't think its game over, I don't think its even the most optimal use of Yan's first go.

 

Since the Goryo hit, it's not really all that card intensive any more.

It's just one discard and twice a 6+ for three Chi. I'll take that any day ...

[Kogan Style]

1 hour ago, Mutter said:

Since the Goryo hit, it's not really all that card intensive any more.

It's just one discard and twice a 6+ for three Chi. I'll take that any day ...

You'd pay 14ss for the option? Since a Goryo can only do it once a turn. I think sometimes trying to obtain 3 chi can skew the list/drain hands unnecessarily.

[Mutter]

Well, I'd pay 14SS for two Goryo, yes.

It's not like they ONLY provide Yan with 2 Chi and do nothing else all game ...

 

I think how much Chi you want/need in the first turn is a bit of a design philosophy with Yan Lo. I know lots of people are happy enough to collect Chi along the way and not jump through any hoops. But others, like myself, want him up and running as soon as possible, and maybe even Hunpo Assault first thing in the second turn. For that, you want 3 Chi first turn ...

[tomjoad]

Low River Monks are very good. Most underrated and misunderstood model in the faction, imo. Anybody who spends their Master's AP on turn one to kill one of their own models is not doing themselves any favors, btw.

[Tokapondora]

If you're absolutely set on Chi farming I'd just stick to the Clockwork Traps. One severe, one kill, 2 chi for 2 SS. Though honestly I'd rather keep my SS for more important things.

[hydranixx]

I'm not sure you get 2 Chi from killing your trap unless you're shooting it twice. My interpretation is that you get exactly +1 Chi for hitting Severe OR for killing a model; it doesn't say you get +2 Chi if you fulfill both criteria. I thus assume your trigger applies only once even if you did hit Severe and kill the target, though I would love to be wrong. 

I also agree that trying to get 3 Chi on his first activation is often too costly in AP, cards and wounds/models, but at the same time, I also think that 1 Chi isn't enough if you need Yan Lo to actually do something productive on his first turn that isn't Walk actions. I think 2 Chi is a better option than both, since equipping a Turn 1 Spirit Ascendant has so many applications. It's reasonably affordable now that Goryo can summon an expendable Seishin on Turn 1 that Yan can kill even on weak damage for that second Chi (doing so also gives the Goryo itself Fast)

Trading 2 AP for 3 AP can be very powerful, especially with the already mentioned Goryos, as 1AP charges stretches that 3 AP even further, and makes an already good model into an exceptional one. One of that 3 AP could be the Soul Porter pushing Yan Lo around as well, so it's not like he's getting completely left behind. I strongly consider this action every time Yan Lo activates. 

I admit that it's easier for Ressers (where I play Yan) to take advantage of the extra AP since there's more Spirits to exploit Fury of the Yomi and more ways to spread Adversary around for the Goryo, but I'm sure a single Onryo is all you'd need for Adversary purposes in Thunders if you time and position it well. 

[Kogan Style]

9 hours ago, hydranixx said:

I'm not sure you get 2 Chi from killing your trap unless you're shooting it twice. My interpretation is that you get exactly +1 Chi for hitting Severe OR for killing a model; it doesn't say you get +2 Chi if you fulfill both criteria. I thus assume your trigger applies only once even if you did hit Severe and kill the target, though I would love to be wrong. 

He is hitting it twice, the trap is armour +2 and 3 wnds so the Severe takes 2 wounds off and then he gets the kill. I think 2 Chi is a good spot for Yan to aim for on turn 1, in TT that will either be Ash  (which can then be swapped by a Terracotta Warrior for Recalled Training before Yan then adds it back on) and Ca6 for actions or the Spirit, giving Yan increased movement via incorporeal.  

 

10 hours ago, hydranixx said:

It's reasonably affordable now that Goryo can summon an expendable Seishin on Turn 1 that Yan can kill even on weak damage for that second Chi (doing so also gives the Goryo itself Fast)

I dont have my book on hand - but I thought it was an enemy attack action that granted fast (much like Yan lo gaining chi when a model is killed by something it considered an enemy)? Happy to be wrong!

[Mutter]

Yes, Goryo's Driven by Revenge is enemy only, unfortunately ...

[Mutter]

12 hours ago, tomjoad said:

Low River Monks are very good. Most underrated and misunderstood model in the faction, imo. Anybody who spends their Master's AP on turn one to kill one of their own models is not doing themselves any favors, btw.

Agree about the first part. Disagree about the second part, though ...

It's never as black & white as that.

[tomjoad]

I mean, if it's worth 4ss, a few cards, and 2 Master AP to accelerate your Chi acquisition on turn 1, then more power to you. I would never recommend this strategy, nor would I follow it myself, is all I'm saying.

[Dassenkop]

20 hours ago, tomjoad said:

I mean, if it's worth 4ss, a few cards, and 2 Master AP to accelerate your Chi acquisition on turn 1, then more power to you. I would never recommend this strategy, nor would I follow it myself, is all I'm saying.

Wondering how you would approach it. I've recently started playing Yan Lo and firing his Chi turn 1 with an Ashigaru didn't work as it was way to cumbersome for me therefore interested what other models would work for Chi farming in a 10T Yan Lo (before I commit to buying them).

I also played a game not farming for Chi and it felt like I couldn't achieve much with him as 10T master. Granted it was the first try and without much 'ranged' models against Perdita (with Wp support to crew) on a relative open board so not the best way to measure it tbh. 

[Mutter]

19 hours ago, tomjoad said:

I mean, if it's worth 4ss, a few cards, and 2 Master AP to accelerate your Chi acquisition on turn 1, then more power to you. I would never recommend this strategy, nor would I follow it myself, is all I'm saying.

There are ways to get to 3 Chi that don't involve 4ss and a few cards (well, unless you're really unlucky). Not everybody was still talking about killing that monk ...

2 Master AP - yes. But in a list where Yan Lo gets a walk for free from the Porter and potentially has Fast, too, those 2 AP don't concern me.

[Kbonn]

It is entirely situational,  having a cheap model that you CAN sac to get chi turn one might be important if you run up against a list that will rush into you.  Chi is an important resource, its foolish to not consider options that can provide more to you on turn one.

 

That said, I've like having 2 goryo and sun quaing, you don't sac anything and your models are all healed easily

[Dassenkop]

Thx. for all insights guys. I didn't realize Goryo was 'Retainer' so can be hired for 10T Yan Lo as well.

[tomjoad]

I try to ignore the Ascendent upgrades, more or less, on account of how medium they are. Having 2 or 3 Chi by the time Yan Lo activates on turn 2 is just fine, and doesn't cost you anything other than the cards you ditch when he activates. Again, if going hog wild for Chi on turn 1 is working for you, that's fine. I just would advise a new player to ignore that plan, that's all.

[BigHammer]

I like to get my Chi from my enemies. Something is usually close enough after a few activations that Yan Lo can take a focussed attack against it, or you can ditch recalled training for similar results. Then you get Chi at the cost of decent cards and do 4 damage a time to enemy models instead of your own.

I've gotten some early kills from this that really slow your opponent and increase your own tempo as a result, and frequently end turn 1 on 3-4 chi.

[Kraye]

Thanks for all the replies about low rivers monks and Yan Lo, I feel that the ideas of how we should be playing Yan in the first few turns has been lacking and is something that I struggle with in my games right now. 

[Mutter]

Another thing I noticed today while going through GG2017 is that a lot of them seem pretty good for Yan Lo. Lightning Dance appears to be pretty clutch for some things others have to struggle a lot more with, like Headhunter, Accusation, Eliminate Leadership, Dig Their Graves, Set Up, Mark For Death.

Others, like Hunting Party or Tail Em, aren't usually that difficult, but can be made easier as well, if you just dance victims into your guys (and keep'em there for Tail Em).

 

What are your experiences with him and GG2017?

[InvokeChaos]

First of all, HI EVERYONE! Work has been killer so i've been gone from the forums for a bit. But I'm back now with my super long posts

As always:

TL;DR - It SEVERELY depends on what your game plan is for Yan Lo AND what your opponent is bringing faction wise as to whether this is a "safe" trick to use, or whether you are better off using that AP and for positioning. It does work. It's useful. I've used it many times. Best iteration right now is the simple Walk Goryo into position, pop out a seishin, kill it with a single attack from Yan Lo to get +1 chi so you have 2 chi after your opening discard. 

I commented on the topic of doing this "chi tricks" a while back... here's the post:

Now since then we've had some changes to the landscape, mostly in the situation of targets for the chi gaining on turn 1.  The biggest change being that Goryo is a superb model for Yan Lo Pan, and also can ping itself to give a seishin... a prime target for easy killing and +1 chi from Lo Pan's trigger.

So here's the skinny... you can't take this trick and just make it a "core strategy." You have to take the landscape into account:

1) Schemes and Strats
2) Board setup
3) Opponent's faction/crew selection

Let's get this out of the way right now... Viks... Beast bombs... Reva/Sonnia/Raspy... these are crews you are going to NEED cards for turn 1. You can read above why this is important or hang on and I'll detail the new breakdown momentarily.

You can't just assume you are working in vacuum of "I'll just throw model X,Y,Z here and nuke it for 3 chi on Yan Lo and it's all gravy!" There's also a tremendous amount of "hidden" cost to this trick. Let's break it down with the newest iteration, and my preferred, if you are going to do this. I am going to do a running tally of the AP used specifically for this trick as well as any cards that may have been flipped and or cheated.

Models needed: 1x Goryo, Yan Lo
Chi Gained: 2

1) Goryo activates, 1AP - walks into position. 1AP - action to take 2 wounds and drop a seishin.
  Cards flipped/used: 1 moderate (TN12 on a Ca6)
  Additional AP used: 1

2) Yan Lo activates, discards a card to gain +1 Chi, 1AP - attack seishin, relent, declare trigger, min damage kills, gain +1Chi, continue with remaining AP
  Cards flipped/used: 4 (1 discard, 1 attack, 3 damage due to relent)
  Additional AP used: 1
  *note you relent here to because even if you flip for defense... you still are going to more likely than not be on a negative flip... which is 3 total cards flipped. on a worst case scenario, you have to         cheat up or down... or worse you red joker the defense flip.  It's bad enough if you RJ the damage 

This is your BEST case usage... You only roll 5 cards, only one of witch has to be a medium, and the only thing you are praying for is that the cards you roll on damage are not severe or jokers. You could also argue that popping the seishin is always going to happen (which I disagree with, but for sake of argument) so it further reduces the overall cost to: +1 Chi = to 5 flips, 1AP. 

If you add in a second Goryo... now you've added another cost of 5 flips and 1-2AP to get a 3rd Chi.

Two things to note here: You drew a hand of 6 cards... Flipped one for iniatiive. Your deck currently has 47 cards in it. Rolling 10 cards is 21% of your deck... and leaves only 37 left for turn 1 + control hand of 5 (pitched one for the 1st chi). If your opponent's crew doesn't engage on turn 1, who cares. Have fun.  If they do... you have a decision to make here.

And this is the best case scenario... dropping in a 7ss model (ideally you will heal said model back up so the seishin trick doesn't make it trivial to kill) that does work, doesn't hurt your list at all. But the previous iteration had even more card flips and even more AP used... as well as forcing a Hench pick to maximize the situation and not just eat one of your activations for 2 chi.

I also think 2x Goryo might be overkill for Yan Lo as it's a good model not a fantastic model, and you need room for other delicious 10T stuff. 

And for the numbers reference, the old wastrel trick with toshiro took potentially: 4-5 cards from control hand, 9 cards from the deck, and potentially a SS to summon with, 1 of those cards was a face card and the other had to be a 9 or higher. And this was to gain 3 chi.

So yeah... watch out for those hidden costs and make sure you aren't giving your opponent an inadvertent advantage just for 1 or 2 extra chi.