Schemes & Stones Master Spotlight Zoraida

[Khyodee]

Lets us know what you think about today's episode.

http://schemesandstones.podbean.com/e/episode-46-master-spotlight-neverborn-zoraida/

[D_acolyte]

I will have to listen to it, I might run her one day.

[D_acolyte]

There really is not any focus on her with non swampfiends, does anyone have exp with her with a puppets theme.

[HegemonyKrcket]

On 10/6/2016 at 2:32 PM, D_acolyte said:

There really is not any focus on her with non swampfiends, does anyone have exp with her with a puppets theme.

She can't really do a "Puppet Theme" much anymore since she can't take the Effigies, Coryphee, or Mannequins.  They moved all that over to Collodi, which is fine because he's really damn good with them.

[Franchute]

The Spawn mother wasn't mentioned (am I wrong?). Does this mean she isn't worth in a Zoraida crew?

[Vorschlag]

On 10/7/2016 at 8:32 AM, D_acolyte said:

There really is not any focus on her with non swampfiends, does anyone have exp with her with a puppets theme.

Yes she has worked exceptionally well for me with stitched together widow weaver and wicked dolls occasionally with teddy (schemes and strats dependent).
The ability to summon the doll and kill it easily with stitched makes a different doll abuse game than the paralyze mechanic I often take with swampfiends, it also means you're created a scrap token each turn for teddy or dolls (weaver summons) however if you run I wisp I suppose you could crank that to 2 scraps plus easy damage through hem-gamble your life.

I'm yet to try the Malifaux Knitting and Needle work society (Zoraida, Weaver, Vasilissa) but now that my main focus is back on neverborn it's only a matter of time.

[HegemonyKrcket]

1 hour ago, Franchute said:

The Spawn mother wasn't mentioned (am I wrong?). Does this mean she isn't worth in a Zoraida crew?

She wasn't mentioned, and I haven't had a chance to field her since Will-o-wisps came out.  But they were clearly a stealth buff for the Spawn Mother as well.  You can use her (0) to pop an egg down each turn and a Wisp to summon a Gupp off of it.  That means if you start with a Gupps you can have 2 dropping markers on turn 2 which means you can start scoring convict labor (or others) immediately.  After that, you can throw them at your enemy and kill them off for a +2 damage on Spawn Mother, Juju, Waldgeists, etc.

[HegemonyKrcket]

I've got to be honest, there is a HUGE amount of options and common combinations that weren't discussed in this podcast.  It's also lacking in discussing the downside of the Swampfiends and possible ways to balance them out.  The upside of Zoraida is that she has a lot of crew options that she can work with.  The downside is that you can have choice paralysis pretty damn quickly.

Iggy and Nurse are two models that bring a lot of power to a Zoraida so it's kinda unfortunate that you didn't go over either of those in detail.  Spawn Mother is another possibility that I would have liked to hear some coverage on.  

Wild Boars and First Mate are both models I'd to have heard more about.

Additionally, I have to totally disagree about On Wings of Darkness and Silurids.  Flight and +1 card (along with a 4 cache) means I'm going to have way more control over what suits I have, which matters a lot with pretty much every single model you'll probably take with her.  Waldgeist want tomes and crows, Juju wants crows, Emissary, Nurses want all sorts of things, Iggy wants tomes, and on and on.  Silurids are just too damn expensive.  I can get the same amount of work out of a 2 Gupps for almost half the price.  Especially now that Spawn Mother isn't terrible, upping a Gupps charge to 7 means they can leap just as well if you're able to manage your masks.

I know you've only got 90 minutes for these, but it really seems like you just scratched the surface.  :-( 

 

[HegemonyKrcket]

2 hours ago, Vorschlag said:

Yes she has worked exceptionally well for me with stitched together widow weaver and wicked dolls occasionally with teddy (schemes and strats dependent).
The ability to summon the doll and kill it easily with stitched makes a different doll abuse game than the paralyze mechanic I often take with swampfiends, it also means you're created a scrap token each turn for teddy or dolls (weaver summons) however if you run I wisp I suppose you could crank that to 2 scraps plus easy damage through hem-gamble your life.

I'm yet to try the Malifaux Knitting and Needle work society (Zoraida, Weaver, Vasilissa) but now that my main focus is back on neverborn it's only a matter of time.

No, doubt.  I think of it as "Ladies Night Out," but a sewing circle makes more sense.  I love Widow Weaver and she's a must have in any of my Wp heavy lists.  I don't understand how to use Vasilissa though, so I rarely take her.

[Vorschlag]

I rarely take vasilisa with Collodi so I'm hoping she will be good for doll abuse with Zoraida otherwise she will rarely see any table time for me.

[Vorschlag]

4 minutes ago, HegemonyKrcket said:

Ladies Night Out

I run the 1.5 Zoraida model so I don't feel I can use the term lady to describe her.

 

I need to build a thematic (aesthetically) voodoo nurse to complete the society but will likely fill the rest of the list with dolls and occasionally teddy, not surd how to sneak a wisp in there without falling out of theme though.

[HegemonyKrcket]

Just now, Vorschlag said:

I run the 1.5 Zoraida model so I don't feel I can use the term lady to describe her.

 

I need to build a thematic (aesthetically) voodoo nurse to complete the society but will likely fill the rest of the list with dolls and occasionally teddy, not surd how to sneak a wisp in there without falling out of theme though.

Just put a pretty hat on it.  Preferably with flowers.

[D_acolyte]

So often after listening I will think, I want to play this or buy it for latter play. This time I thought, "what is the point to this it not the master but the henchmen he is building around."

[Khyodee]

23 hours ago, Franchute said:

The Spawn mother wasn't mentioned (am I wrong?). Does this mean she isn't worth in a Zoraida crew?

It was mentioned during the interview, but it was short and ended up getting cut out. The gist of it was Swamp Mother sucks and isn't worth the points.

[Khyodee]

21 hours ago, HegemonyKrcket said:

I've got to be honest, there is a HUGE amount of options and common combinations that weren't discussed in this podcast.  It's also lacking in discussing the downside of the Swampfiends and possible ways to balance them out.  The upside of Zoraida is that she has a lot of crew options that she can work with.  The downside is that you can have choice paralysis pretty damn quickly.

Sure and the spotlights are often how one player (albeit a good one) uses the master. This doesn't always mean its the only way to do it, but its one way to do it. Unfortunately do to the nature of podcasting, I can't add additional information easily after the interview is done which is why I plan on eventually doing articles to cover that ground perhaps more extensively.

[Franchute]

5 hours ago, Khyodee said:

 I plan on eventually doing articles to cover that ground perhaps more extensively.

It is an excellent idea. You can always add more podcasts too, where the invited player would give his/her alternative view of a master. For example, one could be on the Sonnia burning list or another one could be about spirit Molly etc... I also guess that some podcasts may become obsolete at some point, when new miniatures are revealed, justifying maybe a new version for some masters.

Anyway, I personally love your show and I will keep on listening your episodes even if the topic has already been studied in a previous episode  I'm maybe just looking for excuses to get new episodes  

[D_acolyte]

On ‎10‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 7:20 PM, Khyodee said:

Sure and the spotlights are often how one player (albeit a good one) uses the master. This doesn't always mean its the only way to do it, but its one way to do it. Unfortunately do to the nature of podcasting, I can't add additional information easily after the interview is done which is why I plan on eventually doing articles to cover that ground perhaps more extensively.

I do not think anyone is calling in to question yours or the guest credentials (I know that I have listen to just about everything you post no matter which faction it is for) or anything it is just some of us where underwhelmed. When he said he ran her with only swamp fiend I was actually curious on why; what synergy did I miss, what logic for that because I tend to think of her as a crew neutral master most of the time. What I got as an answered is Bad Juju is the reason why. For the most part it felt like he was saying that you could replace the master with anyone and it will run about as well which caused it to feel less like a master spot light and more like how can Neverborn do schemes with a salting of a master and as that it was great. Also for the most part that crew could be used in the gremlin faction as well with Tarot Reading and only recently added a model that could not be used with Zoraida in the gremlin faction because of the Widow Weaver.

[Patzer]

On 2016-10-09 at 1:14 AM, Khyodee said:

It was mentioned during the interview, but it was short and ended up getting cut out. The gist of it was Swamp Mother sucks and isn't worth the points.

Not even with the Wisps?

[Starrius]

Thank you for all your great podcasts I am a new player to malifaux and have been finding all of your casts very helpful to learning and improving 

[feagaur]

On ‎09‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 0:14 AM, Khyodee said:

It was mentioned during the interview, but it was short and ended up getting cut out. The gist of it was Swamp Mother sucks and isn't worth the points.

I know this is a matter of opinion but I think Spawn mother is a great swampfiend to take run her quite often in a Swampfiend list (and that's before wisps). She's not great at doing much other than creating gupps, but she does hit quiet well and if a Gupp has just died can hit a lot better. And its always fun watching your opponents face when you manage to get a gupp to grow into a silurid and bring out a buried Bad Juju at the same time!

I've even used her in tournaments and done Ok with her (Shes not lowered my ability anyway).

[HegemonyKrcket]

I've been getting in some more games with the Will-o-wisps and it really, really, really improves Zoraida's effectiveness.  Being able to use all her AP on Bewitch/Obey really ratchets up her effectiveness.  I have, however, found those 3 SS to eat into my ability to bring Voodoo Doll support models.  It means I'm either doing Iggy or Nurse, but never both.  Which hasn't been too bad yet, as Z's against the Hemmed model is super useful, and I've been figuring out how to drop damage and conditions on the doll in other way.  I'm excited to order the Wisp models this week.  :-)

Wednesday should be my first try with Wisps and Spawn Mother.  I'll update y'all afterwards.

[Twg]

This is all down to personal preference, but I have never found the Silurid to be an expensive model. The fact that you can leap with a 5 of any suit is massive as you can almost gaurantee this. Whereas the Gupps always need a which is far more difficult to achieve. I have often used both, but Gupps just have never impressed.

I'm really looking forward to using the Wisps as I think they will make both Z and Spawn Mother much better and as stated before it does free up Z to do more shenanigans with obey and bewitched. The first mate really does look like an awesome scheme runner and anti-scheme runner.

[Ergonomic Cat]

On 10/7/2016 at 9:06 PM, HegemonyKrcket said:

Additionally, I have to totally disagree about On Wings of Darkness and Silurids.  Flight and +1 card (along with a 4 cache) means I'm going to have way more control over what suits I have, which matters a lot with pretty much every single model you'll probably take with her.  Waldgeist want tomes and crows, Juju wants crows, Emissary, Nurses want all sorts of things, Iggy wants tomes, and on and on.  Silurids are just too damn expensive.  I can get the same amount of work out of a 2 Gupps for almost half the price.  Especially now that Spawn Mother isn't terrible, upping a Gupps charge to 7 means they can leap just as well if you're able to manage your masks.
 

Feel free to comment more.

[feagaur]

To be honest, since obtaining the spawn mother and gupps I don't think I've used silurids. I think people tend to fall in to the trap of just using them as scheme runners, which for 7 SS is a bit too expensive, when you have a 4ss model which is quite similar. Of course getting the trigger on a gupps attack to bring out a silurid does make it much better. At that point though I tend to use them for their attack (and possible chain) rather than scheme running as more often than not theyre in the midst of my opponents models. Its also funny watching you're opponents face when you use the trigger to bring out a silurid and bring out a buried Juju as well (from sacrificing the gupp).

[HegemonyKrcket]

On 11/22/2016 at 10:09 AM, Ergonomic Cat said:

Feel free to comment more.

So basically you can get the same number of Scheme markers on the table with 2 Gupps as you can with 2 Silurids.  It takes a little more work and card management but it saves you 4 stones, which can be much better used elsewhere.  Their Leap is on any Mask (instead of 5+) and it's only 5" (instead of 7"), so you're less likely to flip it and your going to have to get used to very precise placement, but you can still get the Interact, Leap, Interact if you plan for it.  The need for a mask is slightly limiting, but Zoraida doesn't care about Masks.  She has one upgrade that needs a mask, and I've never used that Action.  Never.  Other models might care about masks (mainly the nurse) but the value doesn't matter, just the mask.  And once I've got my card engine up and running I'll almost always have a mask for at least one guaranteed Leap, which is normally enough for me to get the markers down I need.

Gupps are a little less survivable than Silurids, but after you get used to using them it's only slightly less.  And again, they're 3 stones less.  They're Ht 1, so they're easier to hide.  Their 40mm base means you've got to place them more precisely to completely block LoS.  Their Df/Wp is the same as a Silurid (which is crap) and they're only 4 Wds, but most of your scheme runners are 4-5 Wds so no biggy there.  In my experience with them they are either never hit, or outright murdered.  Just like Silurids.  And if they're going to be slaughtered, I'd rather it be a 4 stone loss than a 7 stone lose.

Gupps also have Juvenile Wail, which gives them a leg up on Silurids.  After I've put my markers on the board and squared away my VP on them I can Wail and then Obey an enemy to kill them.  Now all my nearby Swampfiends have a +2 Ml Damage putting ALL of their minimums at 4.  Now they're Ml 5s and 6s aren't so bad because I literally don't care what my damage flip is.  A Walgeist with a 4" engagement and a minimum 4 damage will ruin anyone's day.  If you're lucky enough to combo that with Spawn Mother charging for free then yippy.  You just used 1 (or 2) AP to generate a free Charge and some right good murdering.

Silurids were overpriced and underpowered in book 1, and they've only gotten less optimal with each further book.