Sportsmanship

[Breng77]

As another non-uk person I would agree with PeregrineFalcon.  The problem I find in war gaming is that people seem to confuse sportsmanship with having a fun game.  Which often turns into voting people down because one had a bad game or played against a strong crew.  I could be a real nice guy but table my opponent turn 3 and our game is likely not fun.  I think framing it as Favorite opponent and tallying favorite opponent votes works as far as naming a favorite opponent but in truth has little to do with actual sportsmanship.

[Tapdancer]

7 minutes ago, Breng77 said:

As another non-uk person I would agree with PeregrineFalcon.  The problem I find in war gaming is that people seem to confuse sportsmanship with having a fun game.  Which often turns into voting people down because one had a bad game or played against a strong crew.  I could be a real nice guy but table my opponent turn 3 and our game is likely not fun.  I think framing it as Favorite opponent and tallying favorite opponent votes works as far as naming a favorite opponent but in truth has little to do with actual sportsmanship.

Which of course leads to the point of how sporting it is to turn up to a game with a list that is so good a large proportion of your opponents have little or no chance of beating you once the game begins.  Within the games community this is deemed as being skilful rather than unsporting.  The setting up of asymmetric matchup has, in all likelihood, driven far more new players from the scene than any other negative behaviour and that is seen as a perfectly acceptable even a positive approach.   

[Psientologist]

Good sportsmanship and good gaming etiquette are both important, I'm not sure you'll find anyone that will disagree with that.

However, are we trying to fix a problem that just doesn't exist?

I agree encouraging good sportsmanship is something that you want to be done but awarding it as if it was competition seems to be the most backwards idea, it's opposite to the point.

Sportsmanship can't have a criteria, bar the obvious "be nice, communicate clearly, have fun" you can't have a form. First off it's a huge waste of time at the event, like Maria said, it's wasting time where you could be chatting with others so is almost preventing the entire point of what it is meant to do. Secondly "Good sportsmanship" is very subjective, shall I mark down anyone who plays Neverborn? Should I mark down non thematic crews? Isn't that just a choice in what the player likes to do, they're not actually harming anyone with either of those choices.

I don't want to use this thread to start beef, but I find it hugely ironic that a suggested thing to help player behaviour is adding a badge to the rankings which supposedly made the behaviours worse.

Assholes will be assholes.

This most obvious of all points is really what boils down my "issue" if you can call it that, of this whole discussion. Good sportsmanship doesn't need to be rewarded (though I do like a trophy for it anyway), it should be expected.

If you are a TO and think it's an issue, put something more lengthy in your rules pack if you think that will make you feel better.

Bad Sportsmanship should be punished. Again it's a little subjective but someone being a mean/horrible person should be dissuaded to come to events if they continue to be this way.

Sportsmanship awards (although I do them at events I run) in themselves have issues. Popularity contests, the subjectivity, the fact that it is only during a game people are judged is also incorrect in my eyes.

I realise I am ranting a lot now, I tried to keep quiet on twitter as 140 characters was not nearly enough to discuss this.

I will finish how I started "are we trying to fix a problem that just doesn't exist?". I do not feel there is a huge problem, I've heard little to no stories about bad sportsmanship within the UK Malifaux scene. This feels like the rankings discussion all over again in my opinion.

The idea of standardising events is a crazy one as in the simplest terms, it can't actually happen.

Honestly, this discussion being on social media and some of the points that started to come out of it I think were more harmful than good. It gives the image to people outside of the scene that sportsmanship has been an issue and it hasn't.

[ProximoCoal]

I just want to be clear and say I didn't want to standardise anything. However having an established system, such as the rankings, will encourage a format. No one has forced Europe to play doubles differently to the states but it does and people tend to stick to that format.

I also don't think sportsmanship and awards are mutually exclusive, hence I don't believe the rankings are bad for the community. 

I think sportsmanship can have a criteria. There are clearly actions people should and shouldn't take. A code of conduct is something you either meet or don't.

I can see how people don't want to spend loads of times in events filling in forms, but I hadn't intended for my criteria to turn into a tax return. 5 boxes where you put between 0 -2 is hardly time intensive, you already tend to fill in a score sheet 

I don't know how you could possibly consider actions outside of the game. That isn't the point of the event.

I also don't think there is much point debating whether there is 'an issue'. I think it has no impact on whether we would like to see more awards for best sports. 

Also, to explain my point better, I never intended to give a soft score bonus to results. I was just making best sports points out of 10 for example.

Finally, I do really like the idea of just giving one of your opponents a vote and then keeping track of these votes across the year. 

[Breng77]

25 minutes ago, Tapdancer said:

Which of course leads to the point of how sporting it is to turn up to a game with a list that is so good a large proportion of your opponents have little or no chance of beating you once the game begins.  Within the games community this is deemed as being skilful rather than unsporting.  The setting up of asymmetric matchup has, in all likelihood, driven far more new players from the scene than any other negative behaviour and that is seen as a perfectly acceptable even a positive approach.   

The problem you run into is how much is that it is that opponents have no chance, and how much of it is that they don't know how it works?  My point is that bring such a crew is not bad sportsmanship.  If we want to dissuade people bringing powerful crews (I don't) it can be discussed but I prefer it not to be coined as sportsmanship as it is fully within the rules and at some level available to everyone.  

[solkan]

For what it's worth, I copy/pasted the scoring criteria that I did because I happen to like the "performance review" model of sportsmanship scoring.

Because it has a few benefits:

1.  It lets you tell your players specifically what you expect out of the them. 

2.  It gives you data that you can look at to see if there are problems people aren't complaining about directly.

In other words, you're making the players tell you whether they think there's a problem, rather than trying to monitor every single game going on while answering questions, getting stuff done for the rest of the day, and all of the other things that you have to do as an organizer.  And it gives you something on paper if you need to talk to a problematic player.

Disclaimer:  Since most Malifaux formats aren't fixed lists, and it's sort of deliberate that you choose lists with knowledge of opposing faction, available schemes, deployment and the like, it probably wouldn't be appropriate to score crew construction based on "theme". 

[Psientologist]

3 minutes ago, ProximoCoal said:

I don't know how you could possibly consider actions outside of the game. That isn't the point of the event.

I mostly agree with what you say bar this quote really. I say outside of a game, that is in and around the event. People may interfere with others, they may be moaning afterwards and all sorts of other "unsporting" things.

Me saying I don't see the "need" in this conversation is just that. If you want to do something sporting related at your events cool, if Kai is up for doing a sportsmanship badge that is up to him.

I much prefer this conversation here though than within general social media.

[ProximoCoal]

1 minute ago, Psientologist said:

I mostly agree with what you say bar this quote really. I say outside of a game, that is in and around the event. People may interfere with others, they may be moaning afterwards and all sorts of other "unsporting" things.

Me saying I don't see the "need" in this conversation is just that. If you want to do something sporting related at your events cool, if Kai is up for doing a sportsmanship badge that is up to him.

I much prefer this conversation here though than within general social media.

I think there is a code of conduct in game and then there is general social etiquette. I am not going to award people for coming to an event for wearing sensible clothing (Conrad) or being respectful towards other beliefs and race. I want to keep toy soldier awards about toy soldiers.

I don't think we *need* this conversation, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have it or nothing can come up for it. You are right that it is up to people to do what they want, but discussing what people would and wouldn't like to see might be useful for TOs in the future.

I agree that twitter is a terrible place to have the discussion. 

[Psientologist]

Personally I also think that "sloppy play" is much more of an issue than sportsmanship. However Gaining Grounds does as much as it can to help with that so we have our document as it were.

[Tapdancer]

19 minutes ago, Breng77 said:

The problem you run into is how much is that it is that opponents have no chance, and how much of it is that they don't know how it works?  My point is that bring such a crew is not bad sportsmanship.  If we want to dissuade people bringing powerful crews (I don't) it can be discussed but I prefer it not to be coined as sportsmanship as it is fully within the rules and at some level available to everyone.  

Often many powerful crews or game winning setups rely on players not being familiar with what they face, an approach which is particularly effective against newer players.  I don't see crew choice as an issue merely an illustration of the illusory nature of what constitutes good or bad sportsmanship.  There isn't a real issue with player behaviour within the UK scene.  It is brought up ad norsium, usually as a justification for Rankings bashing.  Every time it brought up the wider community vocally reject the point made yet it keeps getting brought up as a supposed problem.

 

 

 

[Joel]

No one is saying there is an issue Paul, or bashing rankings, 

do you see no benefit in giving best sports a little wider acknowledgement?

[PanzerHarris]

My 1SS worth?

Sportsmanship and gamesmanship aren't currently problems. There are one or two individuals who would benefit from someone having a word in their ear, but this thread shouldn't turn into a major hand wringing session. This is Malifaux. Our scene is a quantum leap ahead of other game systems in terms of openness, how it welcomes new players and how it supports players.

Joel's asked for suggestions on how to improve sportsmanship and keep the currently high standards we enjoy. Rankings badges seem a popular solution and I've got no issue with that. Win best sports at an event, get a badge on the rankings. Awesome. I would however have an issue with having to grade opponents after every game. As Graeme / Tayne said, and I have a lot of similar experiences, this can lead to scenarios of a guy who has been a really good game essentially demanding that he be 'scored' in a certain way and souring the occasion. It can make things uncomfortable and frankly we don't need it.

As a player and as a TO, I employ one rule. Don't be a dick. If you're in breach of this rule then words will be had in some capacity or another. If you're a dick repeatedly then I won't play you in games and I won't allow you at my events. I don't feel I've ever needed to spell out what behaviour would breach this rule. If you're at an event then you're intelligent and mature enough to know what's expected of you. Helpful hint - if it feels wrong, or like you're being a jerk, you almost certainly shouldn't be doing whatever it is you're doing.

Sportsmanship is something to be encouraged, and the way I do that as a TO is by placing it on the same level as Best Painted and podium finishes. It will always result in a big trophy at a Warzone event and a special mention in the awards. Going out of your way to make your 3 to 4 opponents really enjoy their day is something to be rewarded. Hand on heart, the feeling that comes from knowing those opponents have enjoyed your games enough that you're in the running for best sports tops everything. Front and centre on my trophy shelf, even ahead of the winners' cups, are the sports awards.

We have an amazing scene with an incredibly positive attitude. Long may it continue.

[Joel]

Spot on Panzer!

[Omenbringer]

I always include a Sportsmanship rating in my events and even offer a prize (mine is a bronze painted Teddy with big red heart). Players rate each other after each game and those that consistently receive negative scores are asked to leave the event. Seems draconian but all my players are fully aware of it coming into the events and it has seemed to offset some of the "douche baggery" that competitive events tend to bring out.

One other thing that has really helped me was looking at the prize pool. If it is too "tasty" (like say a Nightmare Edition Lord Chompy Bits before the plastic kit was available when they were commanding premium prices) or too limited (only rewarding the top finisher) then players are encouraged to play harder (and usually that is when sportsmanship suffers). Opening the prize pool is a great first step. My past events have featured the following awards:

1. Best Overall (Certificate and crew box store credit)
2. Best in Faction (up to 6 awards) requires at least 3 players representing that faction to generate the prize. Awarded a Certificate and store credit.
3. Best Sportsman as tabulated by the players after action game report and vote of the top three (Certificate and Bronze colored Teddy with Big Red Heart)
4. Best Paintjob as nominated by the players and voted on by the wider community (Certificate and Store Credit or modeling supplies)
5. Last Place (Certificate and the "Lantern Rouge" award, a Student of Conflict painted in metallic red paint and housed in a small lantern painted in Metallic Red)

I have been fairly fortunate in hosting events at stores that provided prize pools at cost instead of MSRP and was blessed with communities used to paying for organized play events.

For what it is worth I think the new official Prize Kits are a good step toward opening the prize pools (especially the poker chips). Depending upon what is in the Mystery boxes (hopefully nothing two tasty), these may be very near perfect (though I still prefer my award certificates to the official ones, but might be a bit biased ).

[ProximoCoal]

Fair enough. I will change the criteria of sporting award at sins of the North 

[Clousseau]

Is good sportsmanship important? Yes, of course.

Is there a problem in the UK? No, not in my opinion?

Have I won sportsmanship awards? Yes, a few.

Do I have a sportsmanship award at my events? No.

So, am I a hypocrite? No, I don't think so. The reason I don't have this type of award is that its impossible to judge, for all the reasons mentioned in this thread. I actually dislike having to choose my 'favourite' opponent - how do I choose if they were all great players? Am I influenced by how the game went, the luck of the cards, the appearance of the crew or its fluffiness? Some set criteria has its merits, but like others I don't really want to be filling out a form after the game, doing it away from the throng in case anyone thinks I've scored them badly.

If TOs want to include such awards in their events that is fine, and I will approach scoring it enthusiastically. But don't expect them at mine. Expect me to encourage everyone to play sportingly, and timely. Expect me to tackle any issues. And I'm looking at how I can support not just good painting, but thematic crews and general hobbyness (themed markers, conversions, etc.).

Finally, the atmosphere at an event is as important to me as anything else. Encouraging different groups of players to interact, for new players to feel 'included' and for everyone to have a great experience - and want to come again.

Great debate by the way, and a worthy topic.

[NoMoreMrNiceKai]

I like the idea of brining in the best sportsmanship and best painting badges into the rankings. So in future TO's can include it in the email, I'll add it in.  

[ProximoCoal]

1 minute ago, NoMoreMrNiceKai said:

I like the idea of brining in the best sportsmanship and best painting badges into the rankings. So in future TO's can include it in the email, I'll add it in.  

Thanks kai. You're a star 

[HowNot2Wargame]

Isn't this all just a subtle ruse to give Conrad a badge on the rankings site

As someone who I think most people would agree plays for lols rather than (competitive) goals.... And has only had 1 'bad' game in the tournaments I have been lucky enough to attend...

I hate soft scoring as in judging my opponent.  But incentivising/reminding people what helps make your opponent feel at ease and allows them to have fun.... all in.  This is why at Tanefaux events so far (including our upcoming Double or Bust:II plug! plug! plug!) we have lets say a rather light hearted approach to tie breakers.  We like people to play hard whilst being gentlefolk.  Queensbury rules as you will.

Saying that, this is probably one of the few examples of where 'group think' is working already.  And if some one is really deaf, I would hate to see anything which would undermine TO discretion.  Its there event and they should choose to deal with it in any way they choose.

[M_Ruckuss]

Play hard, be a gentleman and respectful seems to be what everyone is saying. I think a best sport at all events would be a great shift- chosen by either player vote or TO. I'm not sure how to incorporate this into rankings, unless it's a single badge for most nominated player or a handshake symbol for people who have been nominated say 3 times or more.

as Paul said, let's just play tot soldiers, doing it in the correct way, being repsonsible and gentlemanly/lady like....

Those in agreement...?!

[jondoe297]

I maintain my idea was legit ...