Expanding the two player start set models into a 35SS crew

[Munindk]

I plan on running a few demo games using the two player starter set with my friends, to get a Malifaux group up and running. I'd like to be able to run a few 35SS games with crews based on the starter models. Which models would you recommend for expanding the Guild crew into a 35SS henchman led crew?

Preferably just 1 box set and 1-2 boxes of minions.

For reference I've got the Dreamer and Pandora boxes, plus Mr. Graves and Mr. Tannen to expand the Neverborn crew.

 

[Druso]

The Guild are Witch Hunters and the Neverborn are Nephilim so if you want to expend the crews (I think that there´s a section talking about that in the little manual comes you with the box) I´ll say Sonnia Starter and Lilith Starter. If you dont wanna buy masters yet...well for Guild Austringers and Guild Hounds are really nice, for Neverborn I´ll go with Nephilim box or Tuco if you like the "demon-style" if not... well if you pick Doppleganger you are not gona fail.

(*) Having Pandora I´ll say that Primordial Magic, as a 2ss totem he has so much potential. Dopple is nice too, so just go to Widow Weaver and Iggy they are great with the crazy girl.

[redarkham]

Also the guildies in the starter fit really well into a Guild aligned McMourning list

[Adran]

11 hours ago, redarkham said:

Also the guildies in the starter fit really well into a Guild aligned McMourning list

But I would say the McMorning box is not good if you want to play guild.

Once you have a couple of other Masters (to own a decent range of hirable models) Mc Mornign is fine, but as a first purchase to add to the starter set, I wouldn't recommend it. 

[Munindk]

Plus I'm interested in building 35SS Henchmen crews, there's nothing in the McMourning box you can field in Guild in a Henchmen game. I do have the McMourning box though, as I'm planning on playing ressers. When all the nightmares are out in plastic I want to play Dreamer too, hence the NB models. The Guild models are solely for demo games, might sell them to a friend, if one of them ends up playing Guild.

 

I was thinking of adding a couple of Riflemen and an Austringer, to give the Guild crew some shooting, but as I've more or less settled on Coppelius and Mr. Graves for the Neverborn crew, I'm worried that the Guild crew will be lacking a heavy hitter.

 

Maybe an Executioner, a Death Marshal to move him forward and the Brutal Effigy? The Death marshal could come in handy if I pick up Tara for my ressers.

[Franchute]

1 hour ago, Munindk said:

Maybe an Executioner, a Death Marshal to move him forward and the Brutal Effigy? The Death marshal could come in handy if I pick up Tara for my ressers.

In the recent post below, it was recommended to get austringer and the brutal effigy, but Peacekeeper/Ryle seemed more appreciated than executioner:

http://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/115877-new-player-starting-guild/

[Munindk]

Ryle and an Austringer could work, it fits the 16SS slot at least.

[LunarSol]

I really don't understand playing this game below 50 SS.  It makes such a small difference in terms of game length and model count and such a big difference in terms of game structure and balance.  Henchmen led is even weirder to me, because you're basically just removing the master to take a ~10 SS model for free.  I mean, this is the difference in terms of my personal thematic expansion to the starter:

35 SS
Grimwell 0 SS
- Witchling 5 SS
- Witchling 5 SS
- Orderly 5 SS
- Orderly 5 SS
- Nurse Heartsbane 8 SS
- Papa Loco 7 SS

50 SS
McMourning + On the Clock + Evidence Tampering + Plastic Surgery 4 SS
- Grimwell 9 SS
- Nurse 5 SS
- Witchling 5 SS
- Orderly 5 SS
- Orderly 5 SS
- Nurse Heartsbane 8 SS
- Papa Loco 7 SS

Obviously this isn't a one box upgrade by any means, but the point is 35 SS games aren't really any smaller than 50 SS in a meaningful way, particularly if you get a free henchman involved.

EDIT: Fwiw, you can swap in Sebastion for Papa and another Nurse for the Witchling and have a "medical" list with just McMourning's box.  There's actually even room for the chihuahua if you like.

[Munindk]

10 hours ago, LunarSol said:

I really don't understand playing this game below 50 SS.  It makes such a small difference in terms of game length and model count and such a big difference in terms of game structure and balance.  Henchmen led is even weirder to me, because you're basically just removing the master to take a ~10 SS model for free. 

I want to play 35SS games to slowly learn more rules without getting overwhelmed, I think that 35SS henchmen games with strats and schemes is a natural progression from the starter set booklet.

My plans is to play through the booklet with a couple of friends, replaying any matches if things are unclear. Then expand the crews we know to 35SS and get acquainted with the strategies and schemes. After that a couple of 35SS games with masters, where crew composition is completely free to get to know how masters and upgrades work, then move on to regular 50SS games.

Its a complete rip off of the Journeman League for Warmachine and Hordes

I understand that the game is balanced for 50SS games and that masters are an important part of the game, but I want to slowly build up to it. Both me and my friends are new to Malifaux, but we used to (5 years ago, or so) play a few different miniature games. Malifaux introduces a lot of new concepts for a bunch of retired 40K and Warhammer players, the closest thing we've played is probably Blood Bowl.

 

[LunarSol]

See, the thing is its not like Warmachine; and I say this as a PG who's run a lot of Journeymen and walked a lot of players through the different point levels from Battlebox to 15, to 25, 35, 50.  You don't go from the battlegroup complexities to needing to understand unit rules, to needing another 10 models to get to 35 and so many of the other things that make the road to 50 intimidating.  As I posted above, the difference between 35 SS and 50 SS is often 1 maybe 2 models, but once you've played through the tutorial missions, there's no great jump in mechanics as you expand model count.

I get the mindset, I really do because I tried to force it upon the game myself.  The thing is, the bare bones game just has a far higher minimum points level than Warmachine does.  Most "starter" crew boxes field around 30 SS worth of models alone.  It's just been my experience that lower point games don't really provide a meaningfully smaller or simpler experience; they only provide one in which players are just a little too limited in their options for the strats and schemes to play out correctly.

[Myyrä]

A better way to limit the complexity of the game is to limit the number of different models played instead of limiting the game size. Running several models with identical stats makes it easier to remember what the models actually do, and makes it easier to focus on learning the rules. A crew box can be expanded to 50ss often by just adding 3 identical minions.

[Tawg]

7 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

A better way to limit the complexity of the game is to limit the number of different models played instead of limiting the game size. Running several models with identical stats makes it easier to remember what the models actually do, and makes it easier to focus on learning the rules. A crew box can be expanded to 50ss often by just adding 3 identical minions.

Often, mostly due to availability of what I have built, I end up running crews with 3 Torakage no matter what masters I'm playing.  It certainly allows me to more easily focus on the rules, and I have heard my friend say he often feels lost keeping track of the schemes and strategy once the game starts.  So familiarity by limited pool of models definitely increases your odds of at least understanding what is going on.  Although they may not always be the best solution for certain problems.

[Myyrä]

2 minutes ago, Tawg said:

Although they may not always be the best solution for certain problems.

The best solution would be to learn all rules and stats by heart, but it takes some time.

[Tawg]

Just now, Myyrä said:

The best solution would be to learn all rules and stats by heart, but it takes some time.

I meant the otherway.  Like, with limited models in your crew, you might not have a good "Answer" for certain problems.  Like I hate putting Torakage anywhere near Teddy, so they end up dancing around the board trying to avoid him since they do awfully little to him, and he can just devour them.

Rote memorization just comes with time, if you're able to acquire that level of skill.  If not, we have cards for a reason

[Gnomezilla]

On 3/8/2016 at 0:13 PM, LunarSol said:

I really don't understand playing this game below 50 SS.  It makes such a small difference in terms of game length and model count and such a big difference in terms of game structure and balance.

I cannot disagree more. When our local slow players (myself and a Resser) face off, the difference between 35ss and 50ss is literally the difference between ending the game and maybe, if we're lucky, getting to the end of turn three. The lesson we've learned is that whoever doesn't score strategy points every turn and schemes ASAP has probably lost.

4 hours ago, Myyrä said:

A better way to limit the complexity of the game is to limit the number of different models played instead of limiting the game size. Running several models with identical stats makes it easier to remember what the models actually do, and makes it easier to focus on learning the rules. A crew box can be expanded to 50ss often by just adding 3 identical minions.

This helps explain why the Resser plays faster with Seamus-and-his-belles than the others, thank you for that. (Won't help me, though, I choke on unanticipated developments in the game.)

3 hours ago, Myyrä said:

The best solution would be to learn all rules and stats by heart, but it takes some time.

Good mental math helps too.

[Myyrä]

1 minute ago, Gnomezilla said:

This helps explain why the Resser plays faster with Seamus-and-his-belles than the others, thank you for that. (Won't help me, though, I choke on unanticipated developments in the game.)

It's also one of the primary reasons why Perdita and Ophelia boxes (and some others) aren't very good for demoing the game.

[Munindk]

Thanks for the insights

I'll look into limiting the scheme pools and keeping the crews simple instead of lowering the SS level then. And probably try to stick to the same crew for several games in a row.

[Otasolgryn]

i have tried the  start set with grimwell in as the Demo game, slightly increased.

 

2 guild guards for one side and 2..... some neverborn horror thing i cant remember on the other side.

There was a common strategy pre selected, and only one scheme per player, preselected.

The ones chosen was, ofcourse, simple ones, to easy players into the game.

It have worked really well.

 

I find that as soon Masters hit the table, its combo synegy time. That is awesome in a game by the way, but very intimidating in the first game or 2.

[Myyrä]

2 hours ago, Otasolgryn said:

I find that as soon Masters hit the table, its combo synegy time. That is awesome in a game by the way, but very intimidating in the first game or 2.

It can be, but as long as you don't get discouraged too soon you will learn to play, and start enjoying yourself even more.