Magic

[The Godlyness]

Did you post this while driving?

Fat fingers no proofReading 5am in the morning and super tired. Thankfully I was not. Now I will clean it up. Wow that is a mess.

[Mister Shine]

75% of the models in the game would be killed by the Guild on sight, and the others are Guild-sanctioned magic users.

 

Magic can get overpowered which is why you dont do combat in a vacuum. Sure, you've robbed a bank, but now we're in dramatic time as sirens are blaring because every witchling stalker in the city is clutching their heads screaming at their handlers.

 

Its a big wide open gaming system and you can't DM it like D&D.

[Omenbringer]

Might have something to do with the amount of time dedicated to any thing other than Character creation. I agree completely with Kadeton's assessment about the magic system and would add the combat system to that as well.

 

The system as a whole is way to easy to "game" (even accidentally without really trying).

 

As a "story telling" game (ala world of darkness) it is decent however once any type of combat is met the game simply falls apart.

 

 

It is a RPG based off a miniatures game that acts like there never was a miniatures game. As a RPG by itself, it is pretty good. As a RPG based off the already set and established story and setting, it is a pretty bad.

Which is funny because so much of the design seemed hampered by the need to be compatible with the miniatures game.

 

I had such high hopes for this RPG however I think it was way too rushed (seems a common theme with anything crowd sourced).

[DeleteAccount]

I think Kadeton hit the nail on the head with his statement that Through the Breach fluff doesn't match Malifaux fluff. It is a RPG based off a miniatures game that acts like there never was a miniatures game. As a RPG by itself, it is pretty good. As a RPG based off the already set and established story and setting, it is a pretty bad. On the topic of magic, TTB makes it seem like it is the most terrible and unlawful thing you can do, yet over 75% of the models in Malifaux, the game these rules are based on, have some sort of CA action. Soulstones, one of Malifaux trademark features, seems like they have been removed from the game. The stories in the Malifaux rulebook make Malifaux look exciting and dangerous, but the RPG just makes it seem like the Guild hunt down everyone with magic and soulstones and do little else. In Malifaux, bad things happen. In Through the Breach, bad things are the only thing that happen. But I am sure that is just me.

 

I don't think it's any problem with the background. Yeah, a ton of things have Ca, but not all of them frankly seem magical in nature, like Von Schill's Finish the Cur action. It is technically a casting action, but it seems incredibly clear to me that it's him telling one of the boys to finish of some dude, but since it didn't make much sense as a Ml or a Sh and they wanted to give it a TN, well, it had to be made a Ca.

 

Also, lets recap, Guild, who are authorized to use magic, Ten Thunders, who operate clandestinely, Arcanists, who operate clandestinely, Resurrectionists, who operate clandestinely, Otcasts, who mostly operate clandestinely and have their bases in the quarantine zone, Neverborn who give less than a rats ass about human law and Gremlins who are also outside of it.

 

So yeah, the Guild is actively hunting this crap and keeping it under wraps constantly, there is a reason Sonnia's department exists after all, but making a skirmish miniature game where you can only skulk in alley ways is a pretty boring thing, so to keep it exiting, things go directly to when conflict has already happened and by playing with guys that have such a presence as to oppose the guild and leave a trial of corpses in their wake.

 

Might have something to do with the amount of time dedicated to any thing other than Character creation. I agree completely with Kadeton's assessment about the magic system and would add the combat system to that as well.

 

The system as a whole is way to easy to "game" (even accidentally without really trying).

 

As a "story telling" game (ala world of darkness) it is decent however once any type of combat is met the game simply falls apart.

 

 

Which is funny because so much of the design seemed hampered by the need to be compatible with the miniatures game.

 

I had such high hopes for this RPG however I think it was way too rushed (seems a common theme with anything crowd sourced).

 

 

This I find more worrying, the magic system certainly seems wonky and Godlyness remarks have made me even more worried about it, but is normal combat that problematic too? My players are too damn good at gaming a system though they do have a decent amount of self control, so I do want to know where to place barriers from the get go knowing the pitfalls other players have dealt with (and add my own around here while I find them).

 

Normal combat doesn't seem that scary to me at an initial glance, I mean, IK is a system I love, but can pretty much be nuked on character creation already and it's a combat oriented game, could I get some newly made non magician character examples that make the system suffer?

 

Going back to the magic thing, The Godlyness, any suggestions to keep magic in the game, but not make every character at least dedicate one session to being a dabbler so they can teleport too? Enforcing it from a narrative stance becomes a horrible balancing act since your magic users end very annoyed when they feel they have their stuff but can never use it because of fear of getting axed and it's not like actually using magic is dangerous in any way like in Cthulu, I've never had the sensation that magic in Malifaux was something that could screw with the user, though it also makes sense that the miniature game doesn't explore that.

[The Godlyness]

my post was what i did in my first game as a Toon. i was the mad bomber of malifaux. but to stop someone from doing this let them know the guild has Stalkers and will find you you have to sleep some point in time they dont. also i was waiting for the black joker to flip after i lit the dynamite to see if i would have any legs or be quite dead after the explosion.  but gaming the system is one thing but the FM can take great discretion or be like Sonnia was walking buy as you teleported she has "scent" of what your magic looks and feels like (all casters have a unique flare to their spells). As the FM you can easily turn the tables on someone who wants to get out of hand.

[vinush]

One of my players has a carbine with a custom grip.

When he focuses and fires at something he's on a double positive flip to attack. He pretty much ruins anything I throw at them, yet I can't throw the real heavy hitters as the majority of the group has a measly 4 wounds... It is a bit of a problem, but then combat is a last resort.

[Ausplosions]

So don't give him time to focus?

Fight in enclosed areas?

Dust has caused his gun to malfunction, giving him a negative.

Meh.

This is why I never really got into RPGs. The "I can be and do anything" problem.

[The Godlyness]

One of my players has a carbine with a custom grip.

When he focuses and fires at something he's on a double positive flip to attack. He pretty much ruins anything I throw at them, yet I can't throw the real heavy hitters as the majority of the group has a measly 4 wounds... It is a bit of a problem, but then combat is a last resort.

People shoot back so he wanted his turn killing a minion or peon or enforcer that was shot previously. The other minions I hope can shoot back or move out of los or a myriad of other different things. You as the fm control the tempo if your group is happy to hack and slash then feel free to do so. But if he is dragging the story by one shotting key people then make fate fickle.

[Omenbringer]

This I find more worrying, the magic system certainly seems wonky and Godlyness remarks have made me even more worried about it, but is normal combat that problematic too? My players are too damn good at gaming a system though they do have a decent amount of self control, so I do want to know where to place barriers from the get go knowing the pitfalls other players have dealt with (and add my own around here while I find them).

 

Normal combat doesn't seem that scary to me at an initial glance, I mean, IK is a system I love, but can pretty much be nuked on character creation already and it's a combat oriented game, could I get some newly made non magician character examples that make the system suffer?

The issue with the combat system is that a beginning character can easily (and without really even trying) be kitted out to wade thru anything short of a Henchman level character without even having to hit above average values on his flips due to the static resolution value. It is entirely possible to start a character with a Perdita level of skill in their chosen firearm. Want more ridiculousness add in a Carbine fired with both hands and with a Custom Grip (which the Mercenary pursuit begins with) and your low ranked NPC's are facing an AV of 7 with :+fate on the attacks before considering the card flip. With the static resolution values for the NPC's, the fated will typically require only a 3+ card value against Minions to achieve a cheatable damage flip (and a 6+ to hit an Enforcer) with every shooting action. Scrappers/ Guards with a custom melee weapon can get just as ridiculous especially if utilizing customization (a custom blade with an AV of 7, 2 and a damage track of 3/4/7 with a native on the damage flip costs only 32 script and the Scrapper/ Guard can begin with it).

 

Henchman ranked NPC's are where the Fated will start to really suffer and combat against a Master is almost impossible for even "advanced" fated (considering the highest acting value would be an 8). When your NPC (that is likely to have above average stats to begin with) is always considered to have flipped a 10+ card value it becomes very difficult for the fated to hit, much less damage one while the Henchman/ Master ranked NPC is successfully hitting the fated with almost every action.

 

I am not saying that encounters with Henchman/Masters should be "cake walks" but the fated (especially those that are advanced) should at least feel like they have a chance and dont have to run for the hills every time one shows up. Consider an entire party of fated against only Perdita or Lilith to see how ridiculous the static resolution is.

[Malsqueek]

You can definitely set up a character to break the game, and that's what a good fatemaster is for. You want to challenge your players, so setting scenes which complicate their expertise is totally fine. Your an excellent gunman, but how do you do a gun chase when you also have to drive the wagon.

[Brewmaster]

The "breaking the system" is one of the core things that rolEplaying games have versus rolLplaying games. The big way I handle it as a Fatemaster is by really getting people into characters over stats first, then taking the more useful discussions from the skirmish game, and translating them to the RPG system. If you only focus on this game as a "hack and slash", you're going to run into problems, but how often are you going to get a "High Noon/ OK Corral" type fight? How often are you going to get a fight that's in balmy 70 degree weather? You don't make combat about "Kill doods and loot their bodies". You bring other variables into it. 

 

The balancing factor for the magic is a similar problem with the Jedi class in the newer Star Wars d20. You have to balance it out with rolEplaying, and that's a difficult thing to do for some people. But if Batman has taught us anything, it's that escalation can happen. You bring a magic, they bring a magic with a gun. You put one of theirs in the hospital, they put one of yours in the morgue... might have gotten side-tracked, but I think the point still stands

[sephiroa]

 

I am not saying that encounters with Henchman/Masters should be "cake walks" but the fated (especially those that are advanced) should at least feel like they have a chance and dont have to run for the hills every time one shows up. Consider an entire party of fated against only Perdita or Lilith to see how ridiculous the static resolution is.

 

euh, wow, my party battled with a master once in the beta testing, someone kinda like Mc Mourning, with some canine remains up front, and a rouge necromancy, it was one tough battle but they won, and they "only" had 2 combat characters and 1 social character.

also building a combat character is nice, but i feel that social characters are far more valuable in TTB

to give an answer on darlin theory:

i noticed this problem as well. the player who wanted to build a tinkerer spend all his 10 scrip in his pneumatic little construct, since this construct was something that he already build before a bit and not at the moment, i tweaked the construct building thing a bit.

so right now he has a pneumatic construct to get his focus object off and that will be impossible to destroy with his curent spells and he can always build a bigger construct

[DeleteAccount]

OK, I'm reading a bit of the weapon section to check out what people are telling me, but yeah, the carbine is an absurdly good weapon and the Custom Grip is the only upgrade worth a damn in the ranged weapons arsenal, the rest are cute gimmicky things and then BAM! + to all attack. So I'll just pretty much assume everybody and his mother, be it Fated or NPC will use Custom Grip, though it's a big fat downer that cover has to become worthless from the getgo. Of course, because of how giving + to NPCs works, the Fated being shot at with Custom Grip carbines gets very scary very quick for them too (or I could be nice and change the + to the attack for NPC into a +2 like Darkblack suggest in another thread), so it's not like I won't be able to keep them honest, but I'd rather the conflict doesn't have to escalate so quick.

 

The big fat weapon I can sort of live with that increases damage by 1/1/2, since it's not exactly subtle, so you can't really justify going with a broadsword on your shoulder at daytime, extended to a degree can sort of be regulated by this, though range 4 spears will be a thing I'm sure. But the big fat one is Folded Steel, which aside from making a mockery of the much more expensive Pneumatic, kind of makes the whole system explode since + to damage is so damn huge. With Pneumatic I can always screw around with the mechanism needing maintenance, or getting disrupted and so and so, basically, yes it works, but isn't 100% reliable, but Folded Steal just becomes the default, again, a very cheap weapon upgrade that adds an absurd punch to any weapon and again we go back to conflict escalation with all Fated and NPC running around with the damn thing by default...

 

I know my players, I know they CAN get into the narrative, but they are also very good at gaming any system and are addicted to combos, there is a reason why they constantly screw around with the Pathfinder system after all, so although I think I can do the whole rolEplaying thing to a degree, well, this crap will creep in no matter what, and unless I decide to outright ban certain stuff, well, the bad guys can also get it too, but it kind of kills the strategy of the game when everyone and their mother gets a + to everything relevant.

 

I'd probably start the campaign with no custom equipment, just stock, or one of the ones I feel I can regulate (big weapon) or gimmicky ones (all of the gun ones outside of Custom grip) at most and when they advance a bit more in Malifaux and get some contacts, they can find a gun specialist or a metal worker and so on (of course said specialists will be in the Quarantine Zone so the Guild doesn't steal their art of course )

 

OK, this thread is being a gold mine for me, it's letting me anticipate a lot of crap from the getgo to either introduce it in small chunks or so on.

 

About the whole Soulstone value thing, I would like to have them be decently common, I mean, I feel that SS are a rare rare thing in the human world, reason why they are so absurdly expensive, but I can also see it being one of the underworld currencies in Malifaux, though fetching a lot less script or what have you inside of Malifaux and with the Guild being very damn careful of what goes out, giving credence to a black SS market of selling to clandestine groups like Arcanists or Ten Thunders but not getting a fortune out of it either. I don't really like the concept of dust, actual stones that can be refilled by the deaths of enemies just seems a lot cooler to me and having players and high caliber NPCs be able to maybe use SS to prevent could be cool and open stuff like doing some more riske actions, like jumping out of a Ht 5 windows and counting on the stone to keep enough damage in control to keep running away. Thoughts?

[dgraz]

I know, I'll just let my players do anything they want.....and when they break the game I'll come complain about it.

 

Come on. Who's the FM? Every RPG has problems. It's up the the FM to moderate that. The 'Custom Grip' is awesome........yeah, because it's custom. You don't just walk into a shop and buy one........someone has to specifically make one for that character. 

[DeleteAccount]

I know, I'll just let my players do anything they want.....and when they break the game I'll come complain about it.

 

Come on. Who's the FM? Every RPG has problems. It's up the the FM to moderate that. The 'Custom Grip' is awesome........yeah, because it's custom. You don't just walk into a shop and buy one........someone has to specifically make one for that character. 

And that's exactly what I'm doing. I'm asking people around to know what stupid stuff they have encountered to reduce problems and have the game devolve, I don't see how that has anything to do with your comment unless it wasn't directed at me.

 

As for the rest of the people, well, doesn't seem like a crazy idea to me to just see how things work out right of the box, yes it's an RPG, we all expect wonkiness to a degree, but I don't see why people should be chastised because they found wonkiness so early (hell, if I hadn't been warned about carbines with custom grips, I probably wouldn't have noticed until I was actually directing). I mean, we are talking about Malifaux High End ranged damage  at the cost of 19 script by getting a custom grip carbine with critical strike on long guns and effectively ignores 2 layers of cover with the double + for cheating purposes.

 

A ram equaling 4 weak damage is pretty beastly for a newly created character who can pretty much be considered to be already at the top end of the damage wheel and the only thing used was the basic gear rules for a Guard, allowing him a single customization because it's not that insane that a player would want it to make it special and give it some story value. Hell, that a Carbine without a custom grip is a weapon that makes cover already be a non issue from the get is is a bit sad and that it can be paired with a Melee weapon when things get close frankly makes it the best overall gun in the game, and it's just 9 script, so anybody can have a carbine if they want.

 

Could I just ban carbines outright? yeah, sure I can, but I'd rather consider if I have other options outside of banning a whole weapon category or allowing them to be taking freely and have all gunfights devolve into carbine wars. So yeah, I like the idea of no power customizations till they find the artificers in the quarantine zone. As for the Carbines, no real idea if I should consider changing Saddlegun to be a more conditional effect, or keep it as is.

[EnternalVoid]

To be honest Razhem I am going through and making notes for changes when I am the FM myself.  Our group went through most of the Beta and weapons and gear were one of those sticking points that was Always a problem.  So one of the first things I am doing is throwing the entire weapon section out and will supply the players with a new one that I like better.  I got most of the weapons and stats I want, still have to go figure the prices.  I have done the same with Armor as well.

 

I am also working on a new character sheet as while the supplied ones are nice, several in the group has said they are not the best to write on.  I am working on making a custom one in Indesign, though I am condensing it down some *so far Page 1 is basically page 1 and 2 together*.

 

I am with Kadeton that I think many FM will be making their own revisions to the rules to fit their group/game theory.

[DeleteAccount]

Oh, nice to hear, if you would share those redone weapons, I at the very least would be very grateful. That also reminds me that somebody made some alchemy rules and will look for them now.

[Malsqueek]

Another thing that may be of value, when you consider that carbines are meant to be useful for the low-skilled combat character, and I thin kit's valuable to have that tool.

 

Maybe the appropriate thinig for a carbine is to change its standard Carbine ability from [+] to "Ignore the first [-] when attacking with a Carbine in two hands".

 

Very similar effect, but with less ability to blow stuff up.

[Omenbringer]

I know, I'll just let my players do anything they want.....and when they break the game I'll come complain about it.

 

Come on. Who's the FM? Every RPG has problems. It's up the the FM to moderate that. The 'Custom Grip' is awesome........yeah, because it's custom. You don't just walk into a shop and buy one........someone has to specifically make one for that character. 

Actually players can start with the custom upgrades on their weapons. In fact more than a few pursuits offer it as a starting option (even offsetting the cost).

 

If you only focus on this game as a "hack and slash", you're going to run into problems, but how often are you going to get a "High Noon/ OK Corral" type fight? How often are you going to get a fight that's in balmy 70 degree weather? You don't make combat about "Kill doods and loot their bodies". You bring other variables into it.

Though the recommendations to offset your fated characters proficiencies via environmental factors has some merit, consider that it effects both fated and fatemaster controlled characters disproportionately because of the static resolution for NPC's. On the low end of the rankings environmentals make it impossible for enforcer or lower NPC's to hit the fated at all (a -2 TN due to low light makes an Enforcer character AV+5 when targeting a Fated), while on the high end it only makes the Fated less likely to hit the Henchman/ Master (the Master is still "flipping" 10+ their AV with the -2 TN due to low light).

 

I am not disagreeing that the game is best suited as a "Story Telling" game (I have said so numerous times), I am saying that if you are planing on running it as a combat heavy system you will run into issues.

[solkan]

If you're running it combat heavy without using the well developed combat rules (the ones from the miniature game) you're probably not going to get what you want.

And if your players are building out One-Shot Bill the crack shot marksman, I'm going to suspect that they'll asking for the well developed combat rules. 

 

Earlier in this thread, there was the straw man example "I teleport a stick of dinamite next to the other guy.  It's not on him, so he can't resist it."     That particular scenario should be on the "Are you prepared to be a Fatemaster?" test, as an essay question:  What are the reasons for and against letting someone "get away that"?

[The Godlyness]

What is there to get away with? Spend an action to light a bundle of dynamite. Spend second ap to teleport bundle of dynamite near or around target.

 

how now my next question is how is this a strawman. here is an Internets definition there are prolly many more

 

You misrepresented someone's argument to make it easier to attack.

By exaggerating, misrepresenting, or just completely fabricating someone's argument, it's much easier to present your own position as being reasonable, but this kind of dishonesty serves to undermine honest rational debate.

 

 

i did no such thing. i Posted a scenario that i have done. cause it can be done. i wanted to see if being "magic" was over the top and how when i am a fate master how to tone it down. i might give the target an easy tn 10-13 duel to dodge it which would be Move value + (3, 5, 7, 9,11) plus any other mediation circumstances like enclosed hall way you are getting hit or dive behind crates ala movie style when someone throws a grenade.

 

Teleport by far is the best spell this game has to powergame. who needs walking when in non dramtic time you can just port around. Course doing so in the city can and rightfully will draw the wrong or right attention depending on how the story is progressing.

[explorator]

I started the TTB economy thread in the TTB beta forums and it turned into a great discussion, although Mack mostly ignored any suggestions to tie the prices of soulstones to their utility. 

 

I am not sure if everyone can read the thread that is linked, if not, I could Quote it out here.  I think it does answer some questions and gives Mack's reasoning.

[Malsqueek]

I started the TTB economy thread in the TTB beta forums and it turned into a great discussion, although Mack mostly ignored any suggestions to tie the prices of soulstones to their utility. 

 

I am not sure if everyone can read the thread that is linked, if not, I could Quote it out here.  I think it does answer some questions and gives Mack's reasoning.

 

In short, the reasoning was "Malifaux is a circa 1920's 'company town'". Anything that was required for a person to stay alive was the correct economic value. Anything that would enable a craftsman to make a living outside of bashing soulstone out of a hole in the ground was ridiculously expensive in order to keep the common man where they were wanted. Anything that would allow said common man to overthrow the Guild (eg. Firearms and Explosives) was purposefully made brutally expensive to limit their availability. I whole heartedly support that 

 

The pricing on Soulstones was bizarre even by that reasoning. I get the Lade 6+ stones being costed at "We will take Geogria in trade", but the lade 1-3 stones especially shouldn't have been costed as they were.

[DeleteAccount]

Seems to me that the stupid high prices should only be applied earthwise, the whole problem being, ok, you got a bunch of pretty stones, now how the hell do you cross back? In pure Malifaux it always seemed to me that it was the extra official currency used for black market shenanigans and not being something too expensive since anybody with a pick and a good hand could get a few. Hell, Ramos whole organization is based on that, getting mass soulstones right under the Guild's nose. You could give the players buyers of soulstones in the Ten Thunders, Ressers and Arcanists as well as a few eccentric fellows. Buying them will probably be more expensive than selling, but still, shouldn't be anything too insane.

[EnternalVoid]

I have to agree with Razhem a bit here, Breachside soulstones are likely cheaper though still hard to find *Guild don't take kindly to you having them* while if you were able to sell a soulstone earthside you could really rake in the money as all soulstone holdings are generally in the Guild's hands.  It is likely why the Arcanist can generate the sort of clot they do even Earthside is by actually getting the stones back earthside with out going through Guild Hands, I am sure there are plenty of governments, people in governments, and independents that want Soulstones that are not on the Guild Books.  Just you would have to have the know how to actually be able to find the proper market for them Earthside with out being caught while Breachside you just have to not get caught *lots of buyers, some dealers, but a pretty extensive black market*.