Nekima and True mother order of operations

[The Godlyness]

Nekima Bleeds on model and kills it summons a tot can she immediately Grow the tot into a young?

 

a slow full health young seems good to me.

 

for referance

 

Feast, My Darlings: When this model kills an enemy model, a friendly model within 6" may count as having killed the model for the purposes of the Grow and Mature Abilities.

Born of Blood: Once per Turn, when an enemy model within a2 is killed due to the Black Blood Ability or the Black Blood Pustule Action, this model may discard a card to summon a Terror Tot in base contact with the model before removing it. The summoned Terror Tot suffers 2 damage,
ignoring the Black Blood Ability.

 

 

[Tuttleboy]

The tot isn't on the table when Nekima kills the model. So no.

[Icemyn]

Where in "Feast my Darlings" does it require that the tot be on the table when triggered?

[zFiend]

Before the kill happens, there is no Tot.

 

Thus the Tot is not made into a young.

[Thaarup]

I would not think that Nekimas newly summoned tot can be affected.

Reading the Ability from Nekimas upgrade:

 

Born of Blood: Once per Turn, when an enemy

model within a2 is killed due to the Black Blood

Ability or the Black Blood Pustule Action, this

model may discard a card to summon a Terror Tot

in base contact with the model before removing

it. The summoned Terror Tot suffers 2 damage,

ignoring the Black Blood Ability.

When you summon the model you also remove the killed model. As the target has already been killed (and removed) before the terrortot gets to use the second ability, it can´t really be affected by it.

[Mako]

RIght, lets try this again without an endless squabble over semantics and what is and isn't a game term etc. I've removed that section of this thread.

 

For clarity, please refer to triggers as triggers and abilities as abilities, and things that activate them as activating the ability/trigger or some such. It reduces confusion as triggers and abilities have very different defined timings and restrictions.

[The Godlyness]

I would not think that Nekimas newly summoned tot can be affected.

Reading the Ability from Nekimas upgrade:

When you summon the model you also remove the killed model. As the target has already been killed (and removed) before the terrortot gets to use the second ability, it can´t really be affected by it.

The model is not removed until after the tot is placed. So when it is removed as killed there is a tot within 6"

[Ausplosions]

But the model is considered killed as soon as it drops to zero Wounds.

Which is before the tot is placed.

[Thaarup]

The model is not removed until after the tot is placed. So when it is removed as killed there is a tot within 6"

First; You still have to finish the summon ability before using the next ability. The killed model is removed as a part of what happens in the summon ability.

Secondly; even though the target model might not have been removed yet it has already suffered "the kill application" as I understand it.

 

The summoned Tot had to be there at the moment "the killing" happened. It didn´t as "the killing" actually summoned the Tot. Or at least that is the way I understand the rules.

[The Godlyness]

Well to beat a dead horse again.

Find me where killed is a: state,condition, or something. One reading is that a model has to be removed before it is actually killed.

Things like karina's upgrade make things die as sacrificed.

Nekima does everything right she killed a model but before that ability is resolved she places a tot. Then resolves the second ability which the model is still killed and she can have something else gain the benefit for purposes of grow and mature. Which conveniently there is a tot now.

Now I will clearly say it's unintended but it's still there raw.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I also, given previous ruling precedence, and from my understanding of the rules, can't see an issue with this. 2 Abilities take effect when Nekima Kills something in the proper way, and both effects happen at the same time. Nekima can choose the order they resolve, she resolves the tot summon first, then resolves the other. RAW, at least with how I understand the RAW rules, this works.

 

However I think we are ALL agreed that this is unintended, and will be ruled as such, given the recent Lilith ruling. 

[Nagash1959]

Following that same logic, Bete Noire would be able to gain Fast off the model that allowed her to unbury (assuming it was a living model killed by a friendly model) which I doubt is intended either as Bete is nasty enough.

[Icemyn]

Following that same logic, Bete Noire would be able to gain Fast off the model that allowed her to unbury (assuming it was a living model killed by a friendly model) which I doubt is intended either as Bete is nasty enough.

This is in no way the same thing. 

I don't understand where this belief that the tot has to see the model be killed is coming from.

The Godlyness typed out the ability in its entirety in the initial post. 

Feast my Darlings allows a tot or young to count as having killed the model. Nowhere in that ability does the tot or young have to be on the table when the model is killed. 

[Dracomax]

This is in no way the same thing. 

I don't understand where this belief that the tot has to see the model be killed is coming from.

The Godlyness typed out the ability in its entirety in the initial post. 

Feast my Darlings allows a tot or young to count as having killed the model. Nowhere in that ability does the tot or young have to be on the table when the model is killed. 

Actually, it does.

When this model kills an enemy model, a friendly model within 6"...

If the Tot is not on the board when the model is killed, then it is not within 6". therefore, it is not a valid target.

[zFiend]

Well how does it count as killing the model if it's not there?

And if the intent was that you could bring in a Young why does it say straight up that you can bring in a Young?

[Icemyn]

Actually, it does.

If the Tot is not on the board when the model is killed, then it is not within 6". therefore, it is not a valid target.

It is not there when the ability is stacked, but why does it have to be?

Nekima kills a model with black blood places both abilites to be resolved in the order of her choosing. 

She chooses to make a tot.

Now she chooses to count a model within 6" as doing the killing and there is a new tot to choose. 

Where in the rules does it say this does not work?

You are assuming that Feast My Darlings must choose a target when its condition is met, that is not supported by the rules.  

 

Well how does it count as killing the model if it's not there?

And if the intent was that you could bring in a Young why does it say straight up that you can bring in a Young?

No one is arguing this is intended.

[Dracomax]

It is not there when the ability is stacked, but why does it have to be?

Nekima kills a model with black blood places both abilites to be resolved in the order of her choosing. 

No one is arguing this is intended.

Because it says so? The timing is explicit. When Nekima kills... and, of course, there is the fact that one ability must completely finish before the other can start. You can't interrupt one ability(summoning the tot) to use the other. Summoning the tot includes removing the enemy, so even if you count it as being "not dead yet" I still don't see how you could do it.

 

EIther it takes place before the tot is summoned, and there is no tot within 6", or it takes place afterwords, and the model is already dead. they aren't actually simultaneous.

[Icemyn]

Because it says so? The timing is explicit. When Nekima kills... and, of course, there is the fact that one ability must completely finish before the other can start. You can't interrupt one ability(summoning the tot) to use the other. Summoning the tot includes removing the enemy, so even if you count it as being "not dead yet" I still don't see how you could do it.

 

EIther it takes place before the tot is summoned, and there is no tot within 6", or it takes place afterwords, and the model is already dead. they aren't actually simultaneous.

I never argued that they are simultaneous, my interpretation in fact hinges on them being consecutive. 

Both abilties are activated at the same time. The rules say you stack them. 

I have shown how you can resolve them consecutively to acquire the desired effect. 

 

Your argument hinges on having to target the tot when you activate FMD the rules do not state that you do this.

It does not matter if the model is dead and removed. FMD says to count a target as killing for its grow, where does it say it has to see the model be killed? 

 

Edit: We all know this should not work. I know it you know it. What I would love is for someone to provide some rule for why, rather than why they feel it shouldn't. 

[Mako]

I've just removed more posts that were basically just insults. If I have to remove any more, this thread is getting locked and the people responsible will be taking an enforced timeout.

Debate the rule and it's intentions, if you wish. But if you can't be polite and actually engage in discussion, don't bother posting.

Is that clear?

[Dracomax]

It doesn't work though. If you do it before the tot is summoned, then there is no tot within 6". So when it is activated, a tot needs to be within 6" for it to work. you cannot pause it to summon the tot. It says this in the text of the ability.

 

If you summon the tot first, removal is part of summoning the tot.

You cannot stop one ability in the middle to activate the other.

 

The only way you could get both is if you could stop the one ability in the middle. Doing it consecutively doesn't work.

 

In addition, I'd honestly argue that summoning the tot is an action that supercedes the killing. i.e. when the tot is summoned, she didn't just kill an enemy, she summoned a tot. the killing has been resolved.

 

That being said, I would happily agree with any and all sentiments that timing in reference to models killed needs some clarification.

[Icemyn]

It doesn't work though. If you do it before the tot is summoned, then there is no tot within 6". So when it is activated, a tot needs to be within 6" for it to work. you cannot pause it to summon the tot. It says this in the text of the ability.

 

If you summon the tot first, removal is part of summoning the tot.

You cannot stop one ability in the middle to activate the other.

 

The only way you could get both is if you could stop the one ability in the middle. Doing it consecutively doesn't work.

 

In addition, I'd honestly argue that summoning the tot is an action that supercedes the killing. i.e. when the tot is summoned, she didn't just kill an enemy, she summoned a tot. the killing has been resolved.

 

1) The rules actually do say you "pause", when two abilities happen simultaneously the owner chooses resolution order. This is the pause you are looking for. FMD waits patiently to resolve while BoB makes a tot. 

 

2) Technically removal is not part of BoB. It states that you place the tot before removing, it doesn't say that you remove the model as a result. This doesn't actually matter though, I just wanted to point it out. 

 

3) You are still assuming the tot needs to see the model be killed or that FMD needs to declare a tot/young when it is activated. Neither is rules true. 

 

4) I honestly don't know what if any rules you are implying here. 

[Dracomax]

1) no, they don't. they say that an action completes itself entirely before moving on to the next action, which includes abilities and triggers initiated by the original action. So, actually, fmd waits patiently to start. As part of the action that killed the model, it goes before that action completes. The action that killed the model is the action that pauses to go completely. nothing in FMD allows it to stop midaction. The killing has already happened at this point.

 

2) granted. However, it does imply that the model has to be removed after placing the tot.

 

3) Nothing in the rules allows the tot to be able to be declared as the target either. It was not within 6" when the model was killed. The killing isn't paused. the killing is done; the action that killed the model to summon the tot is not resolved. The tot was not within 6" of the model when it was killed, which is what any plain reading of the rules says is a condition to use it.

 

4) Neither am I, really. it was a statement of how I think they should work, not how they do.

 

I think it may come down to how you read the ability:

When this model kills an enemy model, a friendly model within 6" may count as having killed the model for the purposes of the Grow and Mature Abilities

 

I am reading it as:

 

Prerequisite: Friendly model within 6", Nekima kills model

Effect: Nekima does not get credit for killing the model, instead, it goes to model to use in grow and mature

 

You are reading it as:

Prerequisite:

Nekima kills a model

 

Effect:

Model with 6 inches gets the credit.

 

 

I can see where you get that, I just don't think it is the correct interpretation.

 

It also kind of comes down to how being killed fits into the timing for abilities, actions, etc. It needs clarification; are they killed when they hit 0 wounds, or are they in some kind of nether state in which they can still get conditions, set off abilities, etc. Is it an event, or is it part of the process. i.e., is it something that can be paused in order to allow the action that killed the model to complete, or does it happen at once, and just not remove the model for said abilities and triggers to be used until the action is completed?

[zFiend]

 We all know this should not work. I know it you know it. What I would love is for someone to provide some rule for why, rather than why they feel it shouldn't. 

 

Then I don't understand why is this going on?

[Icemyn]

Then I don't understand why is this going on?

Because this happens to be a rules discussion forum. You know, where people discuss rules not their feelings about them. 

 

On the actual discussion: I have said all I want to say on this topic, I don't think repeating myself ad nauseum will change any minds. 

 

I agree with Dracomax that the rules could use with some clarification on when models are killed and what things must be present at the time of declaring an ability. 

[The Godlyness]

Query. When is a model killed. When it's reduced to 0 wounds it is removed from play as killed. So does a model get a state of killed before being removed or does the act of actually removing it count? Models being killed have abilities triggered but killed itself is loosely defined.

So on topic before the model is removed a tot is placed. Then it's removed as killed. Then fmd happens which a model has been removed as killed and prerequisites have been met.

[Tuttleboy]

You could be right, but I don't think so. I see the whole "before the model is removed" bit as a way of marking the spot to place incoming models and nothing else.

Basically once a model is killed it is nothing more than a marker and is in effect no longer a model that can affect play.