Pandora's Self Harm vs non-shooters?

[baskinders]

Can pandora cast Self Harm at a target that has no ranged attack?

The answer boils down to whether the first sentence "Select a (1) AP ranged attack on the target." is a requirement of casting or if it's an effect of the casting?

The reason I ask is that if it's an effect then you can cast it on non-ranged attack targets and trigger Mental Anguish to Paralyse them if you take that upgrade, as it's triggered off success and not damaging.

The way it's written it could be either I guess? It doesn't say "target a model with a (1) AP ranged attack" so I'm leaning towards it being ok to target anyone. What do you all think?

[Joel]

I've been playing it that she can't use self harm against a target that doesn't have an attack with a gun symbol in it.

[WoeIsMe]

i always thought it was a requirement to use it... hard to use somethings damage track that isnt technically there....

i mean i get where you are looking at it from.... but just feeling it would have to have an actual action to use it on...

of course what do i know....lol

--Woe

[therat]

I was not under the impression that the effects of an action limited their use in this way.

Would a Sorrow's Doldrums be unable to target a model with Frozen Heart?

Can Pandora not make disengaging strikes against a model without a attack? If the target having a attack of its own is a requirement for her to use that action, then she cannot.

I argue that the effect is post-duel and that, as currently written, she can target models that lack a and/or attack with Self Loathing and Self Harm respectively.

[The Godlyness]

I was not under the impression that the effects of an action limited their use in this way.

Would a Sorrow's Doldrums be unable to target a model with Frozen Heart?

Can Pandora not make disengaging strikes against a model without a attack? If the target having a attack of its own is a requirement for:melee her to use that action, then she cannot.

I argue that the effect is post-duel and that, as currently written, she can target models that lack a and/or attack with Self Loathing and Self Harm respectively.

She can disengage just fine even if the enemy does not have a . Reason is she has one to use when they try walk away page 44 of big book.

Main question

In pandoras upgrade it says after succeeding reduce all damage dealt by this attack to 0 and the target gets paralyzed conditions.

Now normally I would say no you cant since the attack can't work but if ypu just follow the trigger you paralyze. Which seems odd to me. But seems to work. Side note if you use self harm on a model with no projectile attack you would still make an opposed duel but if you win you apply the effects which would do nothing.

I base this on page 33 big book under step 5 first paragraph last sentance.

Which in this case is nothing. But her trigger would still work

[baskinders]

Ah, good point about the book reference. They would also still count as making a Wp check too, so that's another reason for her to want to be able to target non-shooters.

[r4st4f4n]

Mmm, I refer to another part of the rules, page 33, 1.Declare Action and spend Ap:

The player declares the Action, spends Ap(if she has enough), and:

"The player also declares any variable in the Action. This depends on the Action, as some Actions have different variables, or affect multiple targets.

It is during this step that the model declares a target."

Since the text of the Action says: "Select a 1 Ap Action on the target.", and not "This model may select..." nor "..., if able.", I read the target owning a 1 Ap Action as a variable taken into account during Declare Action step: it is an imperative request in the first sentence, like "Discard a Card", and without it being possible, the Action would fail. Otherwise, you could go half the way with Wendigo Devour, before checking if the target is "Ht 1 or Paralyzed", and check trigger to gain Fast even if Sacrifice fails, since the variable isn't fullfilled, which would result in quite a mess for the game...

However, this is my personal interpretation

[The Godlyness]

that is where you are mistaken. That is an effect of the action. not a restriction to target. nothing is stopping you from targeting things that will have no effect. you still have to make an opposed duel which then you apply the applicable effects. in this case of self harm on a non using model would be null and void.

lets say you Alpha pandora and make her target a Cerabus with self harm she would still have to take a terror test. then opposed duel and all that jazz.

To say she cant even target the model is just....wrong.

[r4st4f4n]

that is where you are mistaken. That is an effect of the action. not a restriction to target. nothing is stopping you from targeting things that will have no effect. you still have to make an opposed duel which then you apply the applicable effects. in this case of self harm on a non using model would be null and void.

lets say you Alpha pandora and make her target a Cerabus with self harm she would still have to take a terror test. then opposed duel and all that jazz.

To say she cant even target the model is just....wrong.

I understand this point of view, it just doesn't convince me. Because a lot of abilities don't state explicitly "This Action may only target...", but need a specific target within the effect, and they're played for common sense not targeting a model which wouldn't apply the effect. E.g. Ramos Magnetism doesn't say it can't target non-construct models, but the effect says you push 6" towards target Construct. Given what you say, he could make the Duel against a non-Construct too, Succeed, and then null and void. And many other abilities wording would allow the same... I think this kind of play feels a lot more wrong and messy, than the opposite

[HalcyonSeraph]

that is where you are mistaken. That is an effect of the action. not a restriction to target. nothing is stopping you from targeting things that will have no effect. you still have to make an opposed duel which then you apply the applicable effects. in this case of self harm on a non using model would be null and void.

lets say you Alpha pandora and make her target a Cerabus with self harm she would still have to take a terror test. then opposed duel and all that jazz.

To say she cant even target the model is just....wrong.

No, it isn't. It's a player-chosen variable, which (as I just learned in my other thread) must be chosen before casting. If there is no legal choice, the spell cannot be cast.

[Sharp_GT]

I believe Seraph is right on this one, although it's all very murky here (man, self harm/loathing just keep generating rules questions). Applying the Dg code from the target is an effect of the spell, and all choices in an action have to be decided at step 1) declare, make choices, spend AP. So the choice of which action you're copying the Dg code from would happen in that step before resolving anything else about the spell, but not having a action to copy the Dg code from doesn't really prevent the action from being chosen. Also there's the matter of actions that don't have a Dg code; you have an action to choose, but no Dg code to apply.

The easiest resolution to all of these unanswered questions is that Pandora can target a model with no action, presumably to cause a Wp duel for misery Dg, and just won't have a Dg code to apply. This is arguably incorrect, but it sure makes things easier.

[HalcyonSeraph]

The easiest resolution to all of these unanswered questions is that Pandora can target a model with no action, presumably to cause a Wp duel for misery Dg, and just won't have a Dg code to apply. This is arguably incorrect, but it sure makes things easier.

Except that would make the answer to all similar questions much less clear, since you could point at Self-Harm and say "but why doesn't THAT one work like that too?"

[Myth]

Part of the issue is that the rules never actually define what it means by "declaring any variable in the Action." The examples given are all simply situations involve numerical variables, rather than being 'any choice you need to make as part of the power'. So that makes it easy to be uncertain about how some of these powers are supposed to work.

[Mastershake]

I'd be inclined to say declaring the action is still possible. The damage track doesn't come into effect until resolving effects of the duel where nothing happens.

The thing is, the rules don't prevent a duel that's pointless i.e. you can still use a power that only inflicts the paralyze or slow effect against a model immune to such effects and the duel still takes place it just doesn't do anything.

Self Harm and it's sister ability Self Loathing are in kind of an odd spot since you're still failing a Wp duel in a list that punishes you for that, but it doesn't change the fact that the core rules don't prevent duels that won't accomplish anything on their own. Until a FAQ drops or an answer comes from on high that where I'm likely to land.

[solkan]

So the claim is that you have to specify "X targets Y with Obey, to do Z", so that the opponent will know how important it will be to win the duel?

Rather than "X targets Y with Obey", resolve duel, and figure out what "To do Z" will be?

[Sharp_GT]

Except that would make the answer to all similar questions much less clear, since you could point at Self-Harm and say "but why doesn't THAT one work like that too?"

I assume you meant :meleeSelf Loathing; but yes I do point to that action and say it works that way as well. As I read it you could use Self Loathing against 10t archers for example, or use it on Disengaging Strikes, or use it on Disengaging Strikes against 10t archers even.

Also the example of Ramos' Magnetism doesn't hold up. That action says specifically "...towards target Construct..." defining the target as needing to be a construct. In contrast the Self Harm action never defines a characteristic needed on the target, just that you will be choosing an action on the target to apply the Dg code from. In my experience as a MTG judge that would mean that Magnetism can only target constructs, and Self Harm is not restricted in what it may target.

Edit:

So the claim is that you have to specify "X targets Y with Obey, to do Z", so that the opponent will know how important it will be to win the duel?

Rather than "X targets Y with Obey", resolve duel, and figure out what "To do Z" will be?

Yes, I believe that is how the sequence would work. Pg. 35 of the rules manual lays out the steps of resolving an action, and any variables of the action are chosen in this first step.

Edit Edit:

Hmmm, actually in the case of the Obey action it's the second sequence. The first sequence would be for Self Harm, but with Obey you're just resolving the action to then choose and control another separate action.

Edited January 27, 2014 by Sharp_GT

[Myth]

Yes, I believe that is how the sequence would work. Pg. 35 of the rules manual lays out the steps of resolving an action, and any variables of the action are chosen in this first step.

Edit Edit:

Hmmm, actually in the case of the Obey action it's the second sequence. The first sequence would be for Self Harm, but with Obey you're just resolving the action to then choose and control another separate action.

Right, that's where I start to get confused. With numeric variables, it is easy to see where a choice needs to be made and declared. But when the choice involves more complex decision making, how much needs to be declared in advance? If an action, when successful, requires me to discard a card, do I have to declare in advance what cards I plan to discard?

Or what if I have something where the decisions I make can change based on the outcome of the action? Say, an action that lets you push 3" and then attack? Do I declare who I am planning to attack before I move? What if the push triggers an enemy with Pounce, whose attacks have triggers that move both of us around? My original planned target may be entirely out of reach. Etc.

[The Godlyness]

you only discard if you are successful why would you declare otherwise? you would push 3" then Declare your action as specified in page XX of the rule book. If you pushed and then the reaction was them attacking or pushing away and you have nothing to attack well then you don't.

It seems wonky. my only doubt that i have that the trigger does not work is in the trigger itself.

After succeeding reduce all damage dealt by this attack to 0 and the target gets paralyzed condition.

if you don't do damage to reduce to 0 does it work?

After succeeding Apply applicable effects. Straight from the rule book. in this case nothing.

[HalcyonSeraph]

you only discard if you are successful why would you declare otherwise? you would push 3" then Declare your action as specified in page XX of the rule book. If you pushed and then the reaction was them attacking or pushing away and you have nothing to attack well then you don't.

It seems wonky. my only doubt that i have that the trigger does not work is in the trigger itself.

After succeeding reduce all damage dealt by this attack to 0 and the target gets paralyzed condition.

if you don't do damage to reduce to 0 does it work?

After succeeding Apply applicable effects. Straight from the rule book. in this case nothing.

Yes, but also straight from the rulebook is that you must declare any variables in the spell prior to casting. However, I think the only sane way to read that, after going through this thread, is that you must declare any variables THAT AFFECT THE TN prior to casting. Having to make all choices prior to casting would make for some insane cases.

Thus Nicodem, Ramos, and Dreamer need to name their summon model(s), since it affects the TN, but Zoraida doesn't need to pre-declare what she's Obeying the target to do, nor does she have to pre-select what cards she'll discard if it goes off.

[The Godlyness]

but nothing Pandora does effects the tn?

just because my Attack will have no effect does not mean i cant attack you.

Low river monks are perfect examples. i can still make you flip cards an go through the motions if nothing else to burn cards. (if i needed/wanted to for what ever reason)

My one and only question is What is Preventing Pandora from Targeting, and Forcing and opposed duel with her Attack Self Harm and declaring triggers as normal?

Mind you if you are within 6" but out of 3 i would do this just so you fail a WP duel to take 1damage. and if i took the trigger maybe a paralyze trigger to go with it.

[HalcyonSeraph]

but nothing Pandora does effects the tn?

just because my Attack will have no effect does not mean i cant attack you.

Low river monks are perfect examples. i can still make you flip cards an go through the motions if nothing else to burn cards. (if i needed/wanted to for what ever reason)

My one and only question is What is Preventing Pandora from Targeting, and Forcing and opposed duel with her Attack Self Harm and declaring triggers as normal?

Mind you if you are within 6" but out of 3 i would do this just so you fail a WP duel to take 1damage. and if i took the trigger maybe a paralyze trigger to go with it.

I'm agreeing with you, which I realize is me changing my answer from earlier in the thread. Since Self-Harm doesn't use the word "target", I don't think it has any targeting restrictions apart from normal melee ones. And since the "variables" in the attack do not affect the TN I don't believe they need to be declared prior to casting.

I'm aware that is an interpretation and not a ruling, of course. Could probably stand to be FAQ'd.

[rancor709]

No the ability specifically says select a (1)ap action this a variable. It is the same as the other one's. It should probably be included in the faq buts its fairly simple. if it doesn't have a gun you can't use this. Sorry no 10" paralyzed but good try

[HalcyonSeraph]

No the ability specifically says select a (1)ap action this a variable. It is the same as the other one's. It should probably be included in the faq buts its fairly simple. if it doesn't have a gun you can't use this. Sorry no 10" paralyzed but good try

It's really not that simple though. If Pandora has to select the 1 action before the spell is cast then does Zoraida have to declare what action she's choosing before she Obeys someone?

[r4st4f4n]

Also the example of Ramos' Magnetism doesn't hold up. That action says specifically "...towards target Construct..." defining the target as needing to be a construct. In contrast the Self Harm action never defines a characteristic needed on the target, just that you will be choosing an action on the target to apply the Dg code from. In my experience as a MTG judge that would mean that Magnetism can only target constructs, and Self Harm is not restricted in what it may target.

As a MTG player who quitted especially due to bad wording abuses, banlists of cards and all the rest, I can answer you that MTG is exactly what I was thinking of when I wrote about Ramos. And you should agree that there isn't any restriction for Magnetism to target and make a duel with a non-construct model, because "Push towards target Construct" is a part of the subsequent effect(it needs to be a Construct for the push, not to be targeted by the Duel), that you check in the same exact moment as you check for "Select 1 Ap action on the target", and both checks fail at the same time. Both actions don't have explicit targeting-prior-to-action limitation ("This action can only target...") nor conditional ("...if able/...if the target owns this characteristic"). They just state to do something about a model with certain features, that in our case, that model doesn't have. It's just to common sense not targeting a model that will stop the action taken, at least until FAQ or clear evidence...

[HalcyonSeraph]

As a MTG player who quitted especially due to bad wording abuses, banlists of cards and all the rest, I can answer you that MTG is exactly what I was thinking of when I wrote about Ramos. And you should agree that there isn't any restriction for Magnetism to target and make a duel with a non-construct model, because "Push towards target Construct" is a part of the subsequent effect(it needs to be a Construct for the push, not to be targeted by the Duel), that you check in the same exact moment as you check for "Select 1 Ap action on the target", and both checks fail at the same time. Both actions don't have explicit targeting-prior-to-action limitation ("This action can only target...") nor conditional ("...if able/...if the target owns this characteristic"). They just state to do something about a model with certain features, that in our case, that model doesn't have. It's just to common sense not targeting a model that will stop the action taken, at least until FAQ or clear evidence...

This makes no sense. Magnetism says "target construct". That is clearly a target restriction. You cannot target a non-construct to be your target construct. Just like if a power said "Target enemy model gains Poison +1", you would not be able to target friendlies with it. No one would argue that power to be castable for no effect on friendlies.

Self-Harm does not say "target model with a 1 AP ranged action", most likely because the templating there would be a jargony nightmare, but regardless of reason, it doesn't say it.

[rancor709]

Yes, just as Nicodem has to declare what he's summoning. The first line of all of these don't explicitly state before casting as its assumed you are doing so before casting.

Nicodem states first line. Name a ressurectionist minion model.

Obey states first line-Target non-leader model immediately performs a (1)action chosen and controlled by this models controller

There is no actual timing that says when you chose for obey, only that it occurs immediately so by this logic you never get to declare a 1 action it simply happens immediately.

I'm sure based on english reading of the rules as justin has asked for and a grain of common sense would be the rule is saying select a 1 ap ranged attack if non are present you can';t do it. avoiding the need for the line this action may only target models with a icon in one of there attacks. but I know the world is full of gamey gits an thus the need to actually clarify what should be instinctive. So I hope its added to the faq.

Can an action that requires the Selection or declaration of an action occur if the target is incapable of said action example can Pandora self-harm target a model with no actions with a icon?

No as the model doesn't allow for the completion of all variables within the ability. In short if a model doesn't the ability to do the require action it cannot be the target of the action and no duels occur.

Again I'll wait for the faq but I know how I'll be ruling this locally