disappointed rotten harvest participant looking for help

[Ikvar]

Greetings everyone!

I was one of the participants in the Rotten Harvest, in the "things that goes bump in the night" category, but to my disappointment I didn't even place in top 3.

But instead of getting to upset about it, I am now looking for some advice of what I did wrong.

I was nr.10 with the legendary gluttony, and I honestly think that with the amount of details and advanced Techniques(gore threads, blood running from his cleaver and intestines, the high amount of free hand painting etc), I deserved to be in the top 3.

But the things that I know were not perfect were things like the picture itself, I am still a noob at all this, and taking pictures of the miniature and editing the background out were more difficult then I thought it would be... which is sadly very clear in the picture :/

As I also wrote in the entry, I furthermore did a major noob mistake in trying to do such a big project in only a month, which meant that the blending and overall finish was not nearly as good as I would normally do, but the time simply ran out.

But even with all that, I am still at a loss as to why I didn't place in top 3, compared to the rest of the competition in my specific category(sorry if I am offending someone here). So please just be brutally honest with me, I really want to learn so I can improve my skills

(please click on the link to see the original and bigger picture... no idea how to do it otherwise^^)

http://i951.photobucket.com/albums/ad355/Ikvar/collage9_zps1c4be0e8.jpg~original

Little edit: I just want to clarify that I am only talking about the category I was placed in with all of this, in no way am I comparing myself to the work of art such as the "Jealousy" entry ^^

Edited December 3, 2013 by Ikvar

[dmeep]

Heres my two cents for whatever its worth.

One of the reason i didnt wote for your entry is that Im simply not a fan of the sculpt.

I know that can seem unfair since this is a painting competetion but people will be more inclined to wote for a sculpt they like so a Deamon prince would probably serve you better in a golden demon then in the wyrd painting contest. You are allowed to enter whatever model you want but keep in mind the target audience.

There are some interwiews in portal magazine among other things with painters that sometime ask the question how to pick a model for a competetion. Theyll say it far better then me since I didnt place in the one and so far only painting competetion i entered.

Another problem with your entry is that alot of it go in yellowish brown colours the skin and loincloth flow together makes the whole model look like it lacks a bit of contrast. The yellow barding on the armour enforces this effect in my mind. So a few unfortunate choices in this area also prevented you from getting my vote.

You mention a lack of photography skills. Maybe this is the biggest area for you to improve in if you feel your painting is good enough for you to place 3rd or better.

We can only judge your entry based on the picture you provide and there are a plethora of articles discussing how to photo your minis. Lightboxes, camera settings and backgrounds etc.

hope that helps

[Century]

For me the model seems to lack a focal point. There isn't a particular part that grabs my attention, being rather homogenous in colour and contrast.

For contests in general, and especially for ones that have public polling, there are always going to be results you don't agree with. I've been on either side of this, losing when I thought it was a lock, winning when I thought I had no chance. People don't vote simply on technical skill, their personal biases play a large role. It might come down to, no matter how well painted it is, people simply not liking a model, and there's not much you can do about that.

[Peterdita]

I think dmeep took the words out of my mouth. I completely agree.

Painting contests are tough to "win" all the time regardless of how good your model is painted. If you are a pro, people can overlook a terrible sculpt but you really have to be really good in order to get a vote from someone who doesn't like your model.

You also submitted a mini that not all people can appreciate, myself included. I know nothing of this world and guts hanging out of some fat dude isn't really what gets me going. It also rather busy. zigzag lines, lots of fat rolls that blend in with cloth and everything. No focal point as others have said.

This model is painted well, and I'm sure you put a lot of work into it, there's no doubt there. Much like any report, presentation, story or joke, you have to consider your audience and try and paint something you think they would like and vote for.

All that beeing said, I painted a Wyrd mini that I was very happy with but didn't place either. Just don't think it stood out enough for people to remember or vote on. And thats just part of the contest.

[zKoTTe]

Where can you see the results?

I have searched around the interwebz and couldn't find anything regarding the event.

I received a mail that showed me the winners, but nothing else.

[SpiralngCadavr]

Hi Ikvar,

I understand being frustrated about not getting as good of a response as you were hoping for- the pieces I stepped most outside my comfort zone for in this competition got basically no attention, meaning my risky ones didn't work, which I eventually hope to analyze/write about and I expect will give you some insight, too (sorry for the teaser...just not positive how I'll approach it yet).

First, I thought your piece was a contender in the category, along with probably 5 others, looking back at it.

Second, responding to your own criticism, I think the photography did probably hurt the outcome. I used to do masking like that, but have found it just doesn't pay off- smooth solid color can be blended out to a mask, or have the curves adjusted to appear more opaque. It's also sometimes very difficult to show everything you want in a collage for this sort of thing, and I recall a phrase along the lines of curating and editing being half of a show. Getting a little more detailed, I'd have tried to keep it to 2-3 main pictures that show off your best angles (probably 1 and 3 from your composition) because subtle differences will just look redundant to people browsing through, then possibly add a few close-ups

Regarding advanced techniques, I've found that focusing on making 1-2 techniques perfect yields better results than showing off everything you can do, on a single model. Fewer things (until you get into spectacularly elaborate compositions) will tend to keep focus better.

Regarding improvements, your highlights (particularly on the metal and gore, which could both use some over the top highs) were a little dull feeling (no strong edges), though that might have been the photography. There was something about the skin that didn't give a strong sense of depth (not to be confused with volume, which I think you did well) either, maybe the range of blending didn't get light enough? I've also found that white backgrounds are harder to control when photographing, as they tend to blow out the image. Finally, there wasn't a focus to the model, I felt. The similar tones and lack of strong accents and general business of the piece, and all of the layers of details made it hard to find a single point to stop on. If I had to pick, I'd say that the shoulder pads are where I tend to stop, or maybe the cleaver, but what should have been elevated is the interaction between his creepy face and the dude he's pulling apart, or maybe between the victims. Either way, faces are where people gravitate towards, so where you should spend extra time.

Regarding your competition- this is the part that's hardest to prepare for. Looking at the results, there are some pretty strange patterns in each category. For instance, picks for magic users had a big emphasis on freehand and bright blending, while monsters all had muted tones.

I hope that helps

edit: well, that took longer than I was expecting. Started posting that when nothing else was up.

zkotte, they aren't anywhere yet, at least, not that I've seen.

Edited November 22, 2013 by SpiralngCadavr

[dgraz]

Spiraling had some really great advice for you........and I agree.

That said, I voted for you

[Boshea]

This reminds me, I should really finish painting my Gluttony.

[nagash13]

my observations:

the gut wound bothered me. few reasons, first the leg wounds are bleeding and dripping down his leg, but no blood is dripping down the belly. yes you have awesome blood strings crisscrossing, but why are the intestines dry as a bone. same with the guy inside the gut?

the edges of the skin around the gut wound are not distressed. I would have liked to see them blend from skin tone towards an infected red hue at the flesh tears.

the flesh is far too brown for my likes. it could be the photo. were you using natural sunlight or a true sunlight light bulb? the flesh being that brown might have worked if the loincloth and leather straps were done in a different color.

i loved the metal and wet blood on the weapon. but the gold zigzags on the other armor pieces felt overdone to me. they pulled the eye away from the rest of the model. adding some gloss to the wet tongue, and maybe a nice blue tattoo to his head would have pulled they eye up more.

[Ikvar]

Thank you so much for all the great replies!

I might still not agree on the voting, again compared to the rest in my category, but at least I have a better understanding of why it happened, and what I can do better next time.

I really and truly appreciate some of your detailed explanations, and you can rest assured that I have read everything, and will try to improve on what you guys mentioned

[ork56]

Dmeep summed it up for me.

Not the best choice of mini for target group(I personally don't like it either)

Lack of contrast and focal point to the mini

Photo could be brighter/clearer.

[Nameless]

One of the reason i didnt wote for your entry is that Im simply not a fan of the sculpt.

I know that can seem unfair since this is a painting competetion but people will be more inclined to wote for a sculpt they like so a Deamon prince would probably serve you better in a golden demon then in the wyrd painting contest. You are allowed to enter whatever model you want but keep in mind the target audience.

I've picked dmeep's quote just because it was the first I found, but I'm actually replying to the whole "don't-like-the-sculpt" faction

Aren't you guys missing the concept of a painting contest? It's about painting, right?

Picking the "right" mini for a competition is of course important. If you suck at freehands, get a mini without large flat surfaces. If you're a master of precision and patience, find Klocke's sculpt with hundred buckles and small details. If you know you excel at weathered metals, find a sculpt to show off that skill. So on, so forth.

Some sculpt may be too busy thus too difficult to paint. Other may be too simple to present all your skills.

But, I strongly reject the not-my-style argument. It is obvious, that you are always biased as a judge and your personal preferences will have an impact on your voting (at least at the subconsciousness level). However, if you know you are not voting just because you don't like this particular sculpt... wow...

As a judge of the few most important contests in Poland (GDs, Hussars...) I can't imagine myself allowing my personal preferences to influence my decisions that much. Let's say I don't like historical models (not true btw). Or I don't like Wyrd minis (not true). Or I don't like NMM (not true again). Shall I reject all Wyrd minis, historical models and any miniature painted in NMM style just because I don't like them?

[aka_hazard]

I would also echo a lot of what has been said already.

Some areas could be blended better, such as the skin, whilst some areas are superb, the gore trails and the leg shackle in particular.

For me there was so much going on that a lot of it got lost.

I think it is important to remember that the voters are looking at a lot of miniatures in a short space of time.

If the first impression does not grab them then they may will probably not look closer and therefore miss a lot of the detail.

With so much going on and a lack of a focal point I think this is where you may have lost out.

My entry was "Mr. Magpie says.." and with the images I used I tried to get the overall story across then used smaller images to show specific details. I feel that this enables the viewer to digest the overall piece in smaller 'bites'.

I would also recommend a proper photo setup.

I purchased a portable light box set, including 2 lamps, from ebay for 30 GBP and a camera from ebay that cost 10 GBP. The camera wasn't the latest and greatest but had excellent reviews for macro work which is all that I was interested in.

The results I get now are way better than those I had before.

Good luck on your future efforts.

[dgraz]

Agree with Nameless. Personal taste should count for nothing. I might hate the model, but a good paint job is still a good paint job. I often actually challenge myself quite often to take a model that people hate and paint it in a way that makes them like it instead.

Unfortunately, when voting is open to the general public.....people that are voting may not understand or recognize the techniques that go into a good paint job.....so they vote more based on personal preference.

So in this case, knowing the audience you're playing for does become more important. If you're doing a piece that is being judged by a panel of professionals then you can pick anything you want.

[SpiralngCadavr]

So, are you arguing for pure technique? Because I consider style, model choice, theme, faith to the setting or competition, concept, perceived intention to all be rather subjective and taste-based, and will make my decisions based on what I like.

I might weigh things differently, but I consider stylistic choices to be easily a third of criteria for what I consider when voting. If two models are technically equivalent but I like one's creative choices better, you can be sure I'll vote for the latter. If one has a better concept and one has a better paint job, it'll depend on degrees: solid paint job and great concept might trump great paint job and uninteresting or bad concept.

[dgraz]

So, are you arguing for pure technique? Because I consider style, model choice, theme, faith to the setting or competition, concept, perceived intention to all be rather subjective and taste-based, and will make my decisions based on what I like.

I might weigh things differently, but I consider stylistic choices to be easily a third of criteria for what I consider when voting. If two models are technically equivalent but I like one's creative choices better, you can be sure I'll vote for the latter. If one has a better concept and one has a better paint job, it'll depend on degrees: solid paint job and great concept might trump great paint job and uninteresting or bad concept.

You make a strong point.....especially in a specific competition like this one where there are actual categories. A high elf sorceress does not make a strong showing in a 'Witches' category.

[dmeep]

It is a painting competition and technique etc should count for more then my personal bias regarding the sculpt. Its more of a tiebreaker if I find something I like with a good paintjob Ill pick that over a sculpt I dont care for.

And as one in the crowd I dont have to rise above any particular bias. Democracy is a tyrany of the masses and I only need to hold myself to a higher standard when Im one of 3 or the only judge in a painting competetion.

And since this is a popularity contest choosing what sculpt to lavish all that love and affection (time) on is something to considder.

[Nameless]

A high elf sorceress does not make a strong showing in a 'Witches' category.

actually, if you read the description of a category, it is perfectly eligible

And as one in the crowd I dont have to rise above any particular bias. Democracy is a tyrany of the masses and I only need to hold myself to a higher standard when Im one of 3 or the only judge in a painting competetion.

frankly, this kind of approach may discourage quite a few people from entering next contests.

[ork56]

So, trying to condense some of the recent posts, it sounds like only Golden Demon standard painters should be allowed to vote because those who do not have those skills don't understand the paint job well enough to vote and that all entrants should paint exactly the same mini in order to remove any bias against sculpt/game system/mini material etc.

That's a crock, as they say.

How do you stop bias caused by people preferring blue colours to red colours?

[dgraz]

actually, if you read the description of a category, it is perfectly eligible

My 'Witches' category was meant as generic.....not specifically the category here.

So, trying to condense some of the recent posts, it sounds like only Golden Demon standard painters should be allowed to vote because those who do not have those skills don't understand the paint job well enough to vote and that all entrants should paint exactly the same mini in order to remove any bias against sculpt/game system/mini material etc.

That's a crock, as they say.

How do you stop bias caused by people preferring blue colours to red colours?

I believe that is an over-simplification of what has been said. The point is to pick models suited for the proper audience. When being judged by masses of people that are all at varying levels of skill and knowledge, it may be better to pick something that would appeal to lots of people to help cover any bias bases......whereas if you're being judged by only a few judges - judges that may care more about technique and creativity over playing it safe with a more generic model - then you can pick something more out there.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Also, it doesn't matter how good a painter you are because there are many other factors that come into play. Entering any kind of painting contest is inevitably going to be subjected to some form of subjectivity, no matter where in the process it comes from. Painting Miniatures is an ART form. There are many elements that we can objectively determine, but at the end who you are painting for and how you appreciate it is going to very from person to person. I think an interview I read from a multi Golden Damon winning artist summed it up best for me, and is the attitude I generally accept going in.

You can be one of the absolute best artists in the entire world, but if you are entering a competition against other great artists all that is going to get you is inclusion in the top spots perhaps 50-60% of the time, and actually winning is just going to be a subjective matter of who is judging that day.

There were many miniatures that could easily have won or placed that didn't. Not winning or placing isn't a reflection of a lack of skill. Your abilities and talent do not find their expression in winning contests. There isn't a scientific rubric that will allow us to mechanistically measure out a work of art and say this one if such and such greater than this other one, and appreciation of art shifts through time.

[dmeep]

frankly, this kind of approach may discourage quite a few people from entering next contests.

I dont see why? Isnt it good that they know whet theyre getting into? since the judging in this case is donw by people with different painting skills, tastes and how serious they take the whole thing?

I have seen quite a lot of CofC models on CMON and you guys are very good painters far better then me.

In a way I can understand where your comming from and I did agree with you that if youre the sole judge you take it seriously and try to not let personal bias affect your judgement. Thats comendable but far from how all the participants that vote are going to go about it. With that in mind choosing a sculpt is a step thats not to be underestimated.

But I doubt you and I will see eye to eye on this one since were very far apart atm but thats ok

[bjorkgnu]

This thread has spiraled a bit off from the original question, but I didn't see anything specifically addressing the background color, and that's one of the things that "hurt" your entry, in my eyes. The bright white background causes the figure to appear to have less contrast than it actually does, simply by virtue of sitting against a pure white background. I think the figure would have been better served against a black or gray background. When the figure is brighter than the background, the viewer's eye is naturally pulled toward it, rather than away from it.

Painting-wise, I think folks have pretty much covered everything I would have said. Best of luck in future contests!

[Nameless]

I dont see why?

because some people prefer to have their work judged by quality of a paintjob, not sculpt

[Gujozec]

because some people prefer to have their work judged by quality of a paintjob, not sculpt

Well, those people might want to avoid contests where winners are chosen through public poll.