Malifaux 2.0 Through the breach transcript highlights

[scuttlebut]

*Somebody pass the popcorn please*

[Barnaberible]

@PokiePrawn Not too long ago you posted a thread about talking to people in a store and hearing 'bone chilling, soul searing things about the next edition of Malifaux'.

Well to be fair he was right about the 2nd edition, despite everyone running him down in that thread

maybe he is some kind of profit and right about M2E too

[NIGHTHATER]

Ausplosions: Im done warring with you, theres no reason the truth is already in our posts. My post is on page 8 and most people reading it can comperhend the issue and at least see what I was getting at even if they understand a fix might be in 2.0. Your cry doom post is on page 9 and overdramitizes my post which you quote me with little to no constructive imput. When both are read I'm sure only you and your little doom groupies think I don't have a valid concern.

Jonas Albrecht: The fact I have to type this to you is more shameful then constructive. I did indeed use the 1.5 master info with my example on page 8. Wow how do I even go about this...ah the 2.0 master info isn't out yet (you still with me?). I needed to use info for my example (you still with me?). I used the info available for my post which is 1.5 info (you still with me?). Maby 2.0 will fix stats, maby they wont, it made no difference for my concern when typed at the time.

Nix: I hear you about the you can choose 2.0 or 1.5 issue, but heres where I'm at with that. Once 2.0 becomes the standand small groups will eigher quit playing if they hate it or only wanna play the tournament 2.0. 1.5 will be no more and that just the way it is.

Mike3838: I hear you saying the biggest changes are upgrades and soulstones and I agree with you. I feel that you not being able to spend a S.S. with your master to add 0-14 points and another suit to your duel total is a drastic change. So meny things are changing just the makeover can be considered drastic...or light depending on who you talk to.

NIGHTHATER

Edited May 14, 2013 by NIGHTHATER

[Jonas Albrecht]

Jonas Albrecht: The fact I have to type this to you is more shameful then constructive. I did indeed use the 1.5 master info with my example on page 8. Wow how do I even go about this...ah the 2.0 master info isn't out yet (you still with me?). I needed to use info for my example (you still with me?). I used the info available for my post which is 1.5 info (you still with me?). Maby 2.0 will fix stats, maby they wont, it made no difference for my concern when typed.

"I needed to make something up to complain about".

Yep, still with you.

[Forar]

Well to be fair he was right about the 2nd edition, despite everyone running him down in that thread

maybe he is some kind of profit and right about M2E too

My point is more that he stated he heard of a second edition, and a bunch of stuff that disturbed him. Now there's an official 2E, and his concerns seem to mirror those from that thread, but there's no way of knowing whether or not he spoke to people with actual beta access that were displeased, or simply people spitballing about a potential 2nd edition at Gencon and fretting over what that might entail.

It's quite possible that PP's concerns aren't based on actual M2E, but simply on speculation from others who may or may not have had a single shred of actual info at hand, which would mean they were literally worrying about nothing right now.

It's impossible to say for certain, but we'll all get to glimpse what is to come in two and a half weeks, so at the same time it's also almost entirely academic.

And further, even if it were accurate info at the time, presumably things have changed in the time since the closed beta began (whenever that was), meaning they might be worrying about info that's no longer accurate/up to date.

Basically it could just be a whole lot of sound and fury, signifying nothing. :-P

Edited May 14, 2013 by Forar

[Fetid Strumpet]

Whenever any game changes editions there are people who have devoted a ton of time to the game are going to feel betrayed if they personally do not like the changes. They tend to scream that the developers are destroying the game, that the new game has stolen the flavor, feel, original intent, complexity, maturity, style, etc... Whatever they personally built the foundation of their love for the game on. And they tend to be exceptionally passionate, and scream very loudly about it. I did it when a game I won't mention also changed editions, and I tried it for awhile, but I didn't feel that what the new game offered was for me, despite all the time and money I put into it, and so I left.

No matter what happens with 2nd edition, even if the developers right this instant decided to just scrap all the work done to this date, and just release an update 1.5 with minimal changes, they game would lose players. People don't like change, and even people who might have Loved Malifaux 2.0 if they had never gotten into Malifaux 1.5 will not be able to let go of the previous game.

The simple fact of the matter is that it is not our decision, and all we can do when open beta rolls around is to preview the rules changes and decide if the game is still a game we personally want to play. If it is, all we can do is do our absolute best to help make the game the best it can be, if it isn't then the best we can do it to post why we feel disappointed with the current direction, post why we don't feel the game is for us anymore, and then leave.

Those who still enjoy the game might miss someone who we were acquainted with who has left, but it's going to be beter for all to just let them go and forget about them in the context of the game, and get dinner with them after we have finished our Malifaux for the day.

[Dustcrusher]

I disagree with those who think 2.0 is going to be horrible. I have my reasons, they have theirs. Such is life.

NIGHTHATER, I'd still suggest you try the rules out when they go beta. Give it a couple of games. Then tell Wyrd what you do and don't like. At least then you'll know why you don't like it and that even if they don't agree, Wyrd's at least listened to your opinion (they do listen, unlike some companies I know).

It's funny that this bugs me the most out of all you said:

Nix: I hear you about the you can choose 2.0 or 1.5 issue, but heres where I'm at with that. Once 2.0 becomes the standand small groups will eigher quit playing if they hate it or only wanna play the tournament 2.0. 1.5 will be no more and that just the way it is.

Ah, the legacy of GW- it's not in the latest most recent books so throw it away. Hogwash, I say.

No one but you and your group decide if you want to keep playing 1.5 or not. I'll not bore you with examples of groups playing older games- they're a Google search away. The point is the game you love only dies if you let it. If you decide you like 1.5, play it.

---

On a side note, Nix, if you ditch for good, I'll miss seeing you around. I've gotten a lot out of what you've contributed to these boards.

For what it's worth, I've suggested to some of the staff that these forums keep all of the old strat threads in a Malifaux 1.x section on these boards, for those who want to keep playing that edition.

If Oldhammer can be a movement, why not Classifaux? Feel free to use that name if you like (credit for it would be awesome *wink*).

[PokiePrawn]

I am not in the beta and have never seen anything other than the preview we all have seen. With this in mind, (and I understand this) my information is very limited. But, as sited several times change is not bad, it may just not be for me. I respect people who want to play a new version whatever that looks like.

As for Classifaux (tm Dustcrusher) I would have problems playing at my local store, as people generally play what is new (probably the reason why Wyrd is making big changes) only. In fact, since 2.0 was announced, Infinity and 40K have taken over.

A good debate, lets hope Wyrd listens.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Although I know this will be wishful thinking, I would very much hope that those who do not like it will be able to speak in a rational, deliberate, and thoughtful manner. I'm already dreading the:

"OMG that was fine why did those &%$%$^s change it! OMG the game is bad now cause this changed!"

We are not all going to agree, even those who loved Malifaux before 2.0 was announced didn't even agree all that often. Keep in mind that this should be kept thoughtful, not emotional.

[Mehter]

It's like DnD 4th.

Thought of it in the shower.

Not bad in its own right, and probably pretty good. But not necessarily what a lot of us wanted or asked for, and nostalgia goggles will keep it from becoming good to a lot of us who started at the get go.

[Lucidicide]

I don't know what M2E is going to look like when it comes out, and when it comes out it won't look like it did during the public beta. No matter what that final result is, some people will leave the game and some new people will join it. I, for one, hope Wyrd is more interested in improving the game than they are interested in pleasing people. There will always be unhappy players.

All I can say is that the Wyrd crew has done a great job with M1E, and (although sometimes slow) their errata, 1.5 updates, and new books have shown that so far they have had good judgment. I expect that to continue.

And that is why I hope the biggest focus is on making this the best game it can be, not maintaining the most players. Because they will have the most players by making it the best game they can (even if it alienates some of their base).

[Loxley]

Looks like the party's here!

Just wanted to join in with a little story.

About a year ago my work introduced a new type of pension system that made use if a loophole so the employee's contributions stayed the same but they paid no NI giving them a greater NET take home each month.

What we thought people would do was read through the info provided and make their minds up for themselves if they wanted to opt in or not.

What actually happened was there was a vocal minority who were against the new system because they mistrusted the company, and all their friends around them listened to their (ignorant) claims and didn't opt in to the scheme.

The window for application eventually closed, and all those people shortly realised that they had missed out on a good opportunity because rather than reading through the information when it was made available they were going to listen to other people's opinions and follow blindly.

[Ausplosions]

"I needed to make something up to complain about".

Yep, still with you.

+1.

[nilus]

As for Classifaux (tm Dustcrusher) I would have problems playing at my local store, as people generally play what is new (probably the reason why Wyrd is making big changes) only. In fact, since 2.0 was announced, Infinity and 40K have taken over.

So find others passionate about 1.5 and keep the game alive. Have you even brought up the subject of keeping a group of 1.5 players with your locals

For that matter a lot of people move to a new edition but still bust out the old edition of a game once and a while. I just played a V1 Warmachine game this weekend and it was a blast.

Games and versions only die when you stop playing them.

[NIGHTHATER]

This game doesn't have the fan base of bigger games like 40K and others and this change could bring down the house on me and meny others. I won't be able the say hay lets just play 1.5 because people will just not show. As for the beta testing I have never seen a beta test work. The company already thinks their ideas are great and thats why they put them foward. I can't say if its ego, the money invested, the time invested, or if they don't care enough to say they were wrong, but out of 50 testers if 51 don't say theres an issue its a done deal. Also I have to have enough faith in the testers that they will go to bat against whats wrong and not sit idly by with all the new eye candy infront of them. Then they will have to war with the supporters with blinders on who are just willing to say its great no matter whats the truth to support the company...which I respect, but its also too bad.

2.0s already a go....but well see soon enough.

Anyway I hope I'm wrong and the new system rocks sock, everyone by this point can already see I care about the game and am worried at what we have been told. I have a lot of well painted models (My opinion of course) and I would hate to see dust build on them.

Nighthater

Edited May 15, 2013 by NIGHTHATER

[Ausplosions]

You have seen a Beta test work.

You play a game that resulted from beta testing every time you play a game if Malifaux.

[NIGHTHATER]

*You can also now use a stone in the draw phase to draw and discard an extra 2 cards*

Ya Im not feeling this at all, it just feels goofy. Lets do this instead...

*After you draw your cards you can use a S.S. to disgard your whole hand and draw an equal number of cards*

This is a better idea

If you draw a bad hand you get another chance. If you draw a good hand you roll as you are. if you draw a hand on the fence...well I guess you make a tactical call then and there. I cant see drawing 2 extra random cards fixing a bad hand, but I can see drawing 6+ new card having a greater effect on a bad hand and better balancing the game by balancing the hand draw..or having a better chance of balancing the hand draw. Another weird issue is might help to eliminate is this, you draw really well and drawing 2 extra cards makes an even stronger monster hand.

Anyway where would people be at with the new hand S.S. change as to the 2 card S.S. change?

NIGHTHATER

Edited May 15, 2013 by NIGHTHATER

[Ausplosions]

I would never use a SS for that.

Too much risk vs little reward.

[Forar]

It's literally filtering your deck. You draw 2 more cards, discard the worst 2 from your hand.

Agreed with Ausplosions. Unless my hand is nothing higher than a 3, I can't see myself ever using a stone to redraw the whole thing. Far too often I find my hand has a couple of face cards and a couple of 'meh' cards between ace and 8 or so. Maybe I'm just more of a "one in the hand is worth two in the bush", but I'd be wary of giving up even 1-2 decent or good cards just to take a gamble on another set.

[Adran]

So we have all read the changes coming up and so meny people are overly happy jumping up and down clapping wildly, and I'm trying to figure out if anyones seeing this the way I am.

Justice is my master and has a defence 5

the average attack is 5+C.B. or higher. If I cant S.S. to get higher almost every attack at me hits. Prevent flips kinda help, but get real...everyones like who cares im still hitting and more likely doing some damage. Spend a S.S. for a +def flip is kinda who cares if the attackers a 5+C.B. they play a hand card you cant beat...I mean your lower or tied for def. A -flip for damage is who cares because the attackers was like whatevers I had a -flip anyway now I get 2 weaks over 1 whatevers.

So where are my other Justices, and 5 or lower defence masters at, that kinda need to be up there to play. Do we need to switch masters in 2.0?

NIGHTHATER

Are you telling me in your current games that Justice is invulnerable until you run out of soulstones? And then she dies instantly?

I know thats not what I find. And even when I use lower defense masters I can still get them to the end of a game.

Prehaps you need to use Justice in a different way and not just run her into the middle of the enemy and let her be invulnerable until your stones are gone. Pick when you use high cards to save her from attacks, and when you let her get hurt.

If Justice runnign into the middle of Combat and living is VITAL to her play style then mabe she gets made Defense 10 in the new edition so that you can do that still. She can still be hit by models with low stats, but only by running out your hand.

I have faith in wyrd that they are not going to completly invalidate 90% of their line as unplayable as they would if masters in V1 that only have defense 5 or lower are pointless to play.

If this is your biggest concern over the new edition I think you will find its not a problem. I'm lookign forward to see what they do. I like MAlifaux where it is at them moment, btu accept that the rules can be compicated for other people to follow. If they need to completly redo the rules they might as well redo everyones stat cards.

I have spent a lot of the last few weeks listernign to Malifaux podcasts. I even when and found an old Gamers lounge where they talk about the Beta Testing they did on Book 4, and how things changed based on things they found.

Be sceptical, be concerned, and voice them but if you are interested in the game, be fair and at least wait until you have tried using the new rules before you write them off as pointless and have ruined the game. I'm pretty sure that there are some things that will change between the open Beta and the release at Gen con.

[Mehter]

Do you still flip cards when you attack? Or is it just some static number and have no way of changing it?

[ninjahamster]

Of course you do, the basic duel mechanism hasn't changed

[Pierowmaniac]

As far as we know, the only thing thats changed with the duels is that casting spells uses the same steps as combat duels (ie you no longer lock in a total target number for your opponent to beat). I cant think of many contempary mini games that don't use some form of random variable when two opposing components clash.

[Mike3838]

*You can also now use a stone in the draw phase to draw and discard an extra 2 cards*

Ya Im not feeling this at all, it just feels goofy. Lets do this instead...

*After you draw your cards you can use a S.S. to disgard your whole hand and draw an equal number of cards*

This is a better idea

If you draw a bad hand you get another chance. If you draw a good hand you roll as you are. if you draw a hand on the fence...well I guess you make a tactical call then and there. I cant see drawing 2 extra random cards fixing a bad hand, but I can see drawing 6+ new card having a greater effect on a bad hand and better balancing the game by balancing the hand draw..or having a better chance of balancing the hand draw. Another weird issue is might help to eliminate is this, you draw really well and drawing 2 extra cards makes an even stronger monster hand.

Anyway where would people be at with the new hand S.S. change as to the 2 card S.S. change?

NIGHTHATER

You haven't really explained what the issue is with the "draw 2 cards" mechanic apart from it feels "goofy". It would help us understand why you have an issue with that if you explained what you meant a little more.

The "draw and discard" mechanic is pretty well established in Malifaux 1.5 (Surge etc.), so are you saying that Surge is goofy too?

As the other guys have mentioned, discarding your hand for a completely new one would be very very rarely used. Perdita has the ability Heros Gamble which does exactly that, and it's pretty much NEVER a good idea to use that ability until you've at least played some of the higher cards out of your hand.

On the other hand, a 2 card switch might be enough to tip a bad hand into an average hand, and therefore worthwhile

[scuttlebut]

On the other hand, a 2 card switch might be enough to tip a bad hand into an average hand, and therefore worthwhile

Especially for those masters and crews that are suit dependent rather than high card dependent. In the current edition I would gladly discard a soulstone to filter my cards when playing Hoffman or Molly as I find that those masters tend to have less use for soulstones compared to other masters. However (Molly especially) is very suit dependent needing a second crow or a mask for the majority of her spells (and the triggers in her crew).

Also, according to the podcast chatter, you can use a soulstone to draw the two extra cards even when your master is dead. So when Justice hits kills a master for 4+ wounds over their remaining value, you might not prevention in the hope of the red joker but save your stones for filtering your hands in the remaining turns.

If anything this change to the soulstone mechanic seems like it will make the game much less "my master does everything" and more "my crew works well as a cohesive unit." That is certainly a welcome change in my book.