Decapitate

[emissary]

Quick question. When Misaki gets her decapitate trigger does the damage or the kill effect resolve first? It would be important for slow to die models that could heal. Also if the decapitated slow to die model heals I take it the model would only have the wounds from the heal left.

[Twisted Metal]

You cannot heal off a kill condition.

[arkno]

From the official FAQ :

If a model with Slow to Die suffers an effect that would kill it (eg. Headshot) or has its Wounds reduced to 0, its death is postponed and it may immediately perform a (1) Action. If the model’s current Wounds remain 0, or the effect that killed it has not been negated, it is killed and only then would you resolve events that occur after a model is killed such as dropping Counters, removing it from the game, etc.

[xKoBiEx]

To answer the original question: Damage is dealt first. If you die from that, you can heal and try to stay alive for the Decapitate (that you can't heal, as was already answered.) So, you would actually get 2 "free actions" if the damage killed you.

[Kriltic]

I've been looking at this and I agree that you may heal from Decapitate but it will still kill you as it deals no wounds (and doesnt drop the target to 0 wounds) and has not been negated. Basically dont waste the Slow to Die action on healing.

[The Godlyness]

Decapitate: When Damaging defender with this weapon, kill defender .....

has to do damage first.

if the black joker is flipped the trigger does not go off. (aka the kill effect)

Edited April 9, 2013 by The Godlyness

[xKoBiEx]

Decapitate: When Damaging defender with this weapon, kill defender .....

has to do damage first.

if the black joker is flipped or all damage done was prevented due to a Prevention flip the trigger does not go off. (aka the kill effect)

This is correct. The what if is when it does deal damage. That is when you can slow to die heal the damage death but not slow to die heal the triggered death following. Best action would be to just do another action if you couldn't pay for the decapitate.

[Kriltic]

The Trigger only needs to damage not wound, a prevention flip is to prevent wounds not the damage so again it will not help against Decapitate, the same for healing via Slow to Die. Basically if the Trigger goes off only a Black Joker, the Strong Arm (on a weak damage flip) and discarding cards/stones will help (and probably another exception or two I cant think of).

[Ryu]

The Trigger only needs to damage not wound, a prevention flip is to prevent wounds not the damage so again it will not help against Decapitate, the same for healing via Slow to Die. Basically if the Trigger goes off only a Black Joker, the Strong Arm (on a weak damage flip) and discarding cards/stones will help (and probably another exception or two I cant think of).

Yup! 0 Damage is still damage. So if you prevent to 0 you're not fine. The only way it wouldn't deal damage, normally, is through the Black Joker.

Also, you only get one slow to die action, not two. After damage reduces you to 0 wounds you get a Slow to Die action. You don't get another slow to die action off of decapitate, it does no wounds.

[The Godlyness]

edited for Gross misreading

Edited April 9, 2013 by The Godlyness

[i_was_like_you]

Don't forget that 0 dmg and No dmg are two entirely separate things. It's in a thread on Poison. Dealing 0 dmg still allowed for Poison, but dealing No dmg did not...

[The Godlyness]

?

Poison is applied on the hit. you don't have to even make a damage flip.

Poison #

When a model is hit by an attack with Poison # or affected by an Ability with Poison #, increase the number of Poison Tokens the model has to the # indicated either after resolving the attack, or as indicated by the Ability. Each time the model begins an activation it suffers 1 Wd per Poison Token it has, and then discards one Poison Token.

pulled from the errata

(see Coppelius)

Edited April 9, 2013 by The Godlyness

[Ryu]

@Godly: No, sorry mang.

1) Like has been pointed out above 0 dmg =/= no damage. Also, you convert damage into wounds. You then prevent the wounds with a prevention flip (see pgs 44, 48). The damage has already been done. The ability clearly states "when damaging" not "after wounding." Could this be a simple lexical error on Wyrd's part? Most definitely, but as currently stated the decapitate effect happens after damaging.

2) Decapitate is a kill effect so no, you wouldn't get a second Slow to Die action, even if you had healed with your first. Kill effects don't reduce you to 0 wounds and then remove you, they just remove you regardless of Wounds.

Edited April 9, 2013 by Ryu

[Dracomax]

in summary, mostly because I think we are arguing on the same side:

damage is done

triggers off of damage are triggered

(decapitate occurs here, I think)

damage is converted to wounds

wound reduction occurs here-after damage has been inflicted,

model suffers wounds

if model would be killed, then Slow to die actions occur

So there is nothing that can be done about decapitate after damage--you can heal, but your head is still off.

Errata for damage resolution order

[The Godlyness]

@dracomax thank you for the link i was about to post it myself.

@ryu i stand corrected, step 1c of the Damage Resolution order the kill effect would occur before the model is reduced to 0 wounds. StD off of wounds would happen at step 5Bii

the only way i can think of 2 StD actions would be if.

a witchling stalker had Slow to die some how. and after he was damaged by decapitate he used dispel magic on the kill effect, then after he died to being reduced to zero wounds somehow healed?

Edited April 9, 2013 by The Godlyness

[sharpobjects]

When you are attacked, you Resolve Damage. Damage Resolution is the whole process from being hit to you models Wound Total being changed. In the Damage Resolution Phase you

• Work out how much Dg the Weapon has caused. including triggers and other bonuses.
  
• You take that value and modify it with Armour and Spirit etc. This gives you the final Dg total.
  
• You then change Dg to Wds.
  
• It's at this point you prevent Wds by spending soulstones.
  
• Any Wds remaining are applied to the model.
  

At the end of the Damage Resolution Phase any Wounds Taken is the amount of Damage a attack has caused. Even if this total is 0 Damage, the attack counts as damaging as it has went through the Damage Resolution Phase.

If a Black Joker is flipped for damage, "No Damage" is Caused and therefore Damage Resolution never happens and effects that work on Damaging therefore do nothing.

When you lower damage with Prevention, IE. by spending a Soulstone, if there are no Wounds left after Prevention you also count as having caused "No Damage" and the Damage Resolution is interupted and effects that work on Damaging do nothing.

Step 4. Wound Reduction

Step 5. The model suffers any wounds remaining.

First, reduce the model’s current Wounds by the number of wounds it has suffered.

Any Triggers which occur after inflicting one or more damage/wounds occur now.

Wound prevention by a soul stone user & the black joker can stop after damaging triggers.

[Dracomax]

Step 4. Wound Reduction

Step 5. The model suffers any wounds remaining.

First, reduce the model’s current Wounds by the number of wounds it has suffered.

Any Triggers which occur after inflicting one or more damage/wounds occur now.

Wound prevention by a soul stone user & the black joker can stop after damaging triggers.

No.

Outdated.

from errata:

1. Total the Damage being inflicted.

First, determine the amount damage being inflicted; including performing a Damage Flip if one is required. If the initial Damage Flip is the Black Joker, skip to Step 6 below.

Then, add any applicable damage bonuses.

Then, any Triggers which occur when damage is inflicted occur now.

...

4. Apply wound reduction.

First, any Characteristics or Abilities which reduce wounds do so now.

Then, any Triggers which occur when inflicting wounds occur now.

A model able to Use Soulstones may now spend one to prevent wounds.

First, the model spends one Soulstone.

Then, the model performs a Wound Prevention Flip. If any wounds remain, continue on to Step 5, if no wounds remain, skip to Step 6.

...

6. Any Triggers which occur after resolving damage/wounds occur now.

[The Godlyness]

i was with you sharp objects i was there. how i always played it. but the errata makes my statements void

btw where did you dig this up from? my seach fu is weak.

Edited April 9, 2013 by The Godlyness

[sharpobjects]

When damaging is not after damaging.

After damaging is under 5ai. Which is after wound prevention.

The trigger says after damaging.

"after damaging defender" means after everything in that table (Errata) has occured, and if damage was done (it was not all prevented somehow), the trigger occurs.

Edited April 9, 2013 by sharpobjects

[The Godlyness]

Decapitate on Steamborg says

When damaging

on misaki it says when damaging

[sharpobjects]

Bah, yes it does. No idea how I got "after damaging" stuck in my head.

prevention flips can stop "after" damaging triggers NOT "when" damaging.

Only the black joker on the damage flip, discarding the appropriate amount of cards or soul stones can stop decapitate.

The End

[Ryu]

Bah, yes it does. No idea how I got "after damaging" stuck in my head.

prevention flips can stop "after" damaging triggers NOT "when" damaging.

Only the black joker on the damage flip, discarding the appropriate amount of cards or soul stones can stop decapitate.

The End

Probably from my post. My bad, it does say "when damaging" and not "after damaging" I'll go back and edit it!

[xKoBiEx]

Thank you. I allowed my opponent to prevent decapitate... oh well.

[The Godlyness]

well whirlwind is a after damaging, i got mixed up and thought decapitate was a after also.

decapitate is a when

whirlwind is an after.