Doppelganger, most broken of all

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

Hi all,

I have had the doppelganger in my collection for 2 years. Yesterday I finally got around to using her. I've played against her plenty before that.

Is it me, or is the ganger really broken? I mean, automatically forcing an opponent to flip negative twist on initiative flips even if they stone it? Initiative is so powerful in this game and there is no resist to it either.

Idk, maybe it's just me but she is way to good, as in I think she bends the game in a bad way. Don't get me wrong, I love the model, the fluff, and I sure as hell love having a model that nearly promises first activations every round. Then on top of that she can just copy my masters attack and use SS and start smashing. Her utility is great.

I tried her out in a Lynch crew with Sue. Sue got reactive from the darkness every turn, then shrug off that whole pesky dying thing. Doppelganger copied spells from just about everyone and became one hell of a utility piece.

Does anyone else feel that the neg-twist is a bit much though?

[Inquisitor Wall]

While I do love using the model, I have not found it to be overly broken. It has some great synergy, and the initiative thing is great, but if you don't activate the doppelgänger as your first activation, it is pretty easy to kill.

[Gremlin guy]

I played using the DG last night. I found when you flip a 2, 3, 3 for initiative, you'll still get beat. When on the next turn you flip a 4, and then ss for a re-flip because you really want init, and then get another 4, you still get beat. So IMO, it's not too OP for the cost.

[Ozz]

Personally i don't like that part of her, because it makes you more likely to go first. Yes, that is a great thing on crucial turns, but a lot of the time it is not that important to go first or second, and when it is not important, going first makes you burn activation's first which i think is generally bad. And as said, she is relatively easy to kill unless she goes first and copies defensive ability's, then she cant do much else. So as you may have guessed, personally i do not rate her. Sure there are some fun tricks she can do, but she just is not a model i am a personal fan of using.

[nix]

I do not think she is broken at all. I play a wide variety of neverborn lists, often in competitive settings, and the Doppelganger is only in 1 of those lists. For her price, her utility is only really good with 1 master in my opinion (Pandora). I love the model and for fun games she can be enjoyable to toss out, but I do not think she is a broken model.

[i_was_like_you]

Flipping 4s, 5s & 6s, for initiative consistently (using dg or not), but having my opponents (3player game) both flip like 11s or 12s, with 1s, 2s & 3s as their second card did make for some fun comments regarding the dg being broken.

By the same token, had I not been facing Ortegas and LaCroix, I do feel I may have wasted activations. As it stood, I only had to waste one model's activation, prior to both of them alpha striking, leaving th rest of the turn up to me do do as I please.

I'd hired dg with Lilith, planning to borrow from her and from the Freikorps Specialist.

[marful]

It's 8 soulstones, doesn't do much offensively in-of-itself and is incredibly easy to kill.

I don't see a problem with it personally...

[i_was_like_you]

It's 8 soulstones, doesn't do much offensively in-of-itself and is incredibly easy to kill.

I was worried about that, but for some reason they were more focused on my Primordial Magic than they were on my Doppelganger. Oh, and the Gremlins decided to kill Tuco, for no reason, before I could use him against the Ortegas. The Specialist then roasted Abuela, taking all of the heat off the DG.

It did turn out to be nice using a model's own weapon against it when I had good cards in my hand.

[Bigkid]

She's often an easy 'kill protégé' in my experience.

[i_was_like_you]

She's often an easy 'kill protégé' in my experience.

So's Cassandra. I've heard the same of Samael. A lot of the protege / understudy models that are so versatile are also so very fragile. Sometimes they're worth bringing. Other times, two lower ss minions are the better option. But it does come down to playstyle. Most protegees seem to get rushed to the frontlines where they get taken out as targets of opportunity, rather than having them stay back field a bit, or at least behind some terrain or fog, where they can play cleanup.

Doppelganger has some wonderful tricks, but we've gotta keep her alive long enough to use them. Having some good crew synergy with her helps, as is the case with her role in a 'Dora crew. Giving her those df buffs is another good way.

[Gruesome]

Every Doppelganger on a table means 1 less Lelu, Lelitu or, hopefully, no Tuco.

So, Doppelganger? Yes please. You kans haz.

[Malicte]

I like to think of the initiative flip thing as helping to make up for the core weakness of a model like the doppelganger; that is, it does relatively little until you activate it and have it mimic stuff. If you win init and spend it bringing the doppelganger up to speed, that's practically the same thing as losing init.

Yes, it helps you get init on crucial turns maybe, but that is more than made up for by being such an easy target for Kill Protegee.

[Bigkid]

So's Cassandra. I've heard the same of Samael. A lot of the protege / understudy models that are so versatile are also so very fragile. Sometimes they're worth bringing. Other times, two lower ss minions are the better option. But it does come down to playstyle. Most protegees seem to get rushed to the frontlines where they get taken out as targets of opportunity, rather than having them stay back field a bit, or at least behind some terrain or fog, where they can play cleanup.

Doppelganger has some wonderful tricks, but we've gotta keep her alive long enough to use them. Having some good crew synergy with her helps, as is the case with her role in a 'Dora crew. Giving her those df buffs is another good way.

Agreed, which is why I'd never consider her 'broken'.

A great novelty minion. One that can, in the right situation, do amazing things but one that can also be a liabilty.

Which will also describe most of the models in the game to some degree. Isn't that why we like the game so much?

[i_was_like_you]

Which will also describe most of the models in the game to some degree. Isn't that why we like the game so much?

Sure is.

[Joel]

I tried her out in a Lynch crew with Sue. Sue got reactive from the darkness every turn, then shrug off that whole pesky dying thing.

sod the doppleganger - can someone explain how I missed this trick!?!?! Just plain awesome!

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

I only just noticed that combo myself, you probably need to do what I need to do, and start looking at merc models. lol

[Joel]

used it today in a game - freakin awesome! Sue getting 4 shots off paired with critical strike. Without any of his other abilities, this is good enough. Killed Gun Vik to win the day.

[M_Ruckuss]

You can do the same with zoraida and a nurse with sue- makes for a great combo. Used with dopple gangers negative flip for enemy initiative means you should be able to get it off most turns. Same with lynch.

I haven't had a chance to look through the cards in detail but DGimic should be great with lynch.

[ooshawn]

I use doppleganger in every neverborn list I play that I want to win with. Going first in a crucial round is absolutely over the top powerful, especially when your going for a major objective or killing a opponent's master. Also the ability to copy abilities of anything on your team is just pure insanity, especially in a pandora crew. The doppleganger is only easily killed if your a newer player. I love when people take kill protege' on mine. Because that means you have to get through the rest of my crew, and they are all now expendable, because two of your victory points are dedicated to my DG. Who will be copying all the best defense abilities on my team.

[easternheretic]

Negative twist to init doesn't guarantee that the opponent will go second. Others have already pointed that out.

For a real jammy tale, try this. I once had a game where I had the DG in the crew, and Zorida had gone avatar for a positive twist to init, and I still lost init. We both laughed our @## off when it happened. One of the many pleasures of playing Malifaux I say.

Cheers.

[ooshawn]

statistics say that if you have the doppleganger, you will usually go first. Especially if you burn a soulstone. Going second with avatar zoraida and doppleganger and burning a soulstone, is such a rare event, that I suspect the chances of that happening are less than 1 per 100+ games.

[i_was_like_you]

Considering that even without Doppelganger, I went first in a three player game last weekend by flipping a 3, to my opponents 2 & 1, anything is possible. We're not just looking at the stats of what one deck can flip, blackjack style. We've got two decks involved, and not everyone wants to use stones on initiative.

[ooshawn]

Using random events to explain things , isn't good enough for me personally. That's how people try to explain the existence of ghosts and other random bull****. Hard facts are all that matters, especially when using logic to determine the usefulness of a model. Some random game with your friends, in which one round you went first due to them flipping low, has about as much effect on this subject as the fact that sometime this month there will be a full moon. It's just a god damn, completely useless statement. Fantastically useless piece of nonsense.

The Doppleganger increases your chances of going first through the roof. When you need to kill a crucial model or complete a objective, it's absolutely relevant argument that being able to dictate not only having the first action in the round, but even more so to predict that you will go first in the next round. Sometimes forgoing a attack for a double movement, knowing you have a really high chance of going first next round.

People who try to cover up factual information with random event that happen in their lives are just... i should stop here.

[i_was_like_you]

Perhaps you should enlighten us with actual statistics regarding exactly how our opponents flipping two cards at a will actually increase our chances of going first. As through the roof is nothing more than an idiomatic expression, not a hard fact, it does nothing to illustrate the point of why anyone should choose to pay 8 soulstones to take a model that, while it does have plenty of versatility, its most prominent and widely talked about feature is its Ill Omens, as it is exclusive to the Doppelganger.

So, please, come off of your high horse, grab your abacus, and enlighten us as to the veracity of your claims.

[Justin]

Please try to keep a civil tone.