The Chess aspect of Malifaux, and why some buffs just don't work.

[dgraz]

I don't think alternating activations are the problem.

I've certainly experienced that turn 5 or 6 anticipation of what the initiative flip is going to be many, many times.

Have you any thoughts on how to fix this "problem"? Alternating initiative after the first turn? Or is it more that you wish the buffs lasted longer?

[Jonas Albrecht]

I've certainly experienced that turn 5 or 6 anticipation of what the initiative flip is going to be many, many times.

Have you any thoughts on how to fix this "problem"? Alternating initiative after the first turn? Or is it more that you wish the buffs lasted longer?

I have a few thoughts. Activated buffs that last until the end of the model's next turn, buffs that activating models receive for being near another model, buffs largely being limited to the self variety.

Remember, my problem's not with initiative or alternating turns, but with buffs never really being worth ceding initiative for.

[dgraz]

I have a few thoughts. Activated buffs that last until the end of the model's next turn, buffs that activating models receive for being near another model, buffs largely being limited to the self variety.

Well there are certainly examples of all of those floating around. I guess you're looking at this for a Mali 2.0 idea? Obviously it would require a massive re-write.........not crazy, just lots of little things that would need change.

I agree with your statement about many things (that may seem like a choice) not really being choices at all. Taking Rasputina for example.....it's either go with a Silent One to boost range, and/or a Gamin to boost damage......by the time Raspy actually goes, you may have lost the chance for her to do much at all.

On the other side of this, too many abilities that can stay up until next turn may make the Initiative flip even more powerful than it is now.

[Jonas Albrecht]

On the other side of this, too many abilities that can stay up until next turn may make the Initiative flip even more powerful than it is now.

Quite the inverse in many cases, actually. For example, if Cassandra's Southern Charm stayed on until the end of her next activation, her opponent winning Initiative might not be the death sentence it usually is for her.

I've pretty much written off Malifaux 1.5 as a game that can be fixed to be anything more than casual with a very narrow set of tournament options, so if I start talking about rules changes, it's a safe bet that I am referring to the next edition.

[FearLord]

I agree that it's a problem with some buffs - not so much (0) actions on offensive models (as you don't really give up anyny in terms of initiative). Other buffs have their place, but are more situational. Some basically amount to one in a million style abilities that almost never get used, compared to normal attacks...

[dgraz]

Quite the inverse in many cases, actually. For example, if Cassandra's Southern Charm stayed on until the end of her next activation, her opponent winning Initiative might not be the death sentence it usually is for her.

Defensively I can see......but take my Raspy example above and her winning Initiative would make her pretty brutal. Even your Marshal example may be too good when you look at the damage Lady J can dish out. I'm probably being too specific for the scope of this discussion......obviously not everything could last till next turn.....some things could be changed to reflect your other examples (perhaps Raspy gains range if she is within 3" of a Silent One or something). Most of the buffs would need to be looked at individually....obviously.

Put me down as someone that would like to re-visit many of the buffs......and at least bring them more in line with the maturity level of the game. But that may all well fall in with just models being re-visited for a 2.0 re-write.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Defensively I can see......but take my Raspy example above and her winning Initiative would make her pretty brutal. Even your Marshal example may be too good when you look at the damage Lady J can dish out. I'm probably being too specific for the scope of this discussion......obviously not everything could last till next turn.....some things could be changed to reflect your other examples (perhaps Raspy gains range if she is within 3" of a Silent One or something). Most of the buffs would need to be looked at individually....obviously.

I think a fairly easy fix would be that offensive buffs end at the End Phase, defensive buffs last UENT. You still run into the issue before though. Offensive buffs should probably just be handled differently than defensive buffs in general. I think those are more suited for the "self buff" and "buff upon activation" type things.

As for my example, I am hard pressed to think of anything Lady Justice cannot kill in a charge. Well, except for that one time she came at my Peacekeeper and Hoffman.

Edited January 31, 2013 by Jonas Albrecht

[Alviaran]

I agree that it's a problem with some buffs - not so much (0) actions on offensive models (as you don't really give up anyny in terms of initiative). Other buffs have their place, but are more situational. Some basically amount to one in a million style abilities that almost never get used, compared to normal attacks...

Like I said, part of my question is why even have things like Flaming Bullets? The (0) self buffs that don't require you to make choices (such as Sword Style, etc.) are IMO just rather pointless. You need to make using it a real choice or just build it into the character. There is no meaningful choice to make since if you are going to shoot, you Flaming Bullets. If not, you don't. There is no other option for the (0) for him.

Buffs in general could probably use a look over when they go to a new edition. The really powerful ones you start to only allow every other activation or only for the round, while the more minor buffs, defensive and offensive, can apply until the end of next activation. Because so often, that first activation can completely wreck the entire turn.

Lose initiative, well, your models who might be needing specific defensive buffs to survive this matchup just get wrecked. Win initiative, and you often don't feel like there is a meaningful choice: I must activate the big threat, at sub optimal conditions, to go purely for the kill because he is about to go down once I pass initiative. And I mean all sub optimal conditions because if I can't get those defensive buffs up, my opponent now activates around my big threat because it has already gone, the teeth have come out of me for the turn in some cases. How often have you played against McMourning, Kirai, etc. and watch their chaff minions do their thing. Seishin, Defensive Stance, Pass, sound familiar? Meanwhile, the master sits back and does...nothing. Waiting. Waiting. Because they are activating from a place of safety and control, they go last after everything has been set up. Imagine if McMourning HAD to go first because he was about the get squished otherwise, but he is low on Body Parts? If he can do some cutting before, he becomes a monster. Instead, the Rezzer player takes a severely suboptimal McMourning activation that gets little done because he knows that if he doesn't, he doesn't get to activate him. And now with McMourning done, I just pick apart the rest of the crew and use my last heavy hitter to finish him off instead. (Yes, McMourning is not dependent on buffs, but he is an easy example of a Master waiting for the end of the turn for things to be set up for him to do his thing)

[FearLord]

Well, with Flaming Bullets, you still need to cast it, which either means you get lucky or you cheat, so there is a cost to the ability, but little point not attempting it...

I think most of the book 1 models could use a little gloss in an edition change - book 4 contains lots of really interesting models that kind of make some of the book 1 model a little dull by comparison...

[Jonas Albrecht]

book 4 contains lots of really interesting models that kind of make some of the book 1 model a little dull by comparison...

Is this any more evident than in the Rail Golem?

[FearLord]

Yeah, the Rail Golem is a great example of a model that is just more interesting to play than some earlier models with a similar role, but there are loads of real gems in the book that bring new stuff to the game (and not in an over the top way like some of the book 2 models or in a fiddly way like say Spawn mother...)

[Euclid (#ScottishMeta)]

So the problem is that some turns you don't see the tactical need to use some buffs? You do realise that what you are sugesting already exists in the game, just not on the model you want...

Ashigaru get a buff from being near ancestors. Toshiro has an always on buff for friendly models. I'm sure there are more examples too.

Tough choices are what makes malifaux fun. If you don't find a particular model effective with a certain master, well then it probably isn;t and that doesn't make the game unbalanced.

[FearLord]

So the problem is that some turns you don't see the tactical need to use some buffs? You do realise that what you are sugesting already exists in the game, just not on the model you want...

Ashigaru get a buff from being near ancestors. Toshiro has an always on buff for friendly models. I'm sure there are more examples too.

Tough choices are what makes malifaux fun. If you don't find a particular model effective with a certain master, well then it probably isn;t and that doesn't make the game unbalanced.

While this is all true, there are some abilities (especially on older models) that just don't get used at all, because they don't make sense to use (as they either prevent the model doing something more useful or make the model not even taken in favour of better models)...

The problem extends to debuffs as well - this is why the Guild Lawyer doesn't see much play - it's got some great debuffs, but most people would rather just have a model attack and kill the same model instead...

If I were activating all of my models, before the opponent could, those debuffs would be invaluable - as it stands, they become much more circumstantial, as I have to choose to activate him or a hitter. Unless the target is going to be extremely hard to kill with my other model, the Lawyer is going to lose out - there are some circumstances where the lawyer will be the better option, but they are few and far between, especially when he costs as much as the bigger Guild hitters and needs to be in the right position at the right time...

[Odin1981]

I think the problem that jonas is saying/talking about is just why would I give up initiative to buff something, when you can use initiative to just kill that which threatens your models. One thing I would be a big proponent of in malifaux 2.0 is init modifiers just flat out being taken away from the game. In my humble opinion the three most important flips in the game are not based on any type of duel they are solely based around turn 2,3,4 init flips. If a pllayer can win 2 of those and assuming their opponent had a similiar skill level I would put money hands down on the side that won two of those flips.

Being able to initiate a turn in this game to set the pace of the rest of the turn is absurdly powerful. Also it really grates me only one faction ever gets any effect on those flips. It would be one thing if insidious madness where outcast faction and be able to be hired by any crew but only one faction has models that effect the most important flips of the game (azoraida, doppleganger, insidious madness) and people wonder why a certain faction places so well in national convention tournaments (granted their our a crap ton of other benefits they get but effecting the pace of a turn is something I believe that no faction should have the benefit off).

[decker_cky]

Another possible solution to this issue is to add a new ability for soulstone users. Discard a soulstone to have a 3" pulse companion activation with any friendly models or something similar.

[dgraz]

Another possible solution to this issue is to add a new ability for soulstone users. Discard a soulstone to have a 3" pulse companion activation with any friendly models or something similar.

Would this then reduce the effectiveness of certain masters/models that have a Companion ability built in? and that is reflected in their cost?

[decker_cky]

Would this then reduce the effectiveness of certain masters/models that have a Companion ability built in? and that is reflected in their cost?

Probably, but only by a miniscule amount. Much shorter range plus discarding a soulstone is a pretty hefty price to pay.

[DeleteAccount]

I frankly could care less about the buff thing, I consider it a good thing to have to think if it's worth it or not. Not always will the judge die in one activation to disallow him to use the buff from the death marshal and it would lead too much into autoplay buffing. What I am a lot more interested in is the initiative thing. Basically, I would like the first activation to be alternating (yes, Malifaux 2.0 idea), that means, first turn we flip for it, but all the following it goes in an alternating fashion, meaning that I have to play knowing that you go first next turn and viceversa.

This would add to the mindgames and would make it so going for broke with a model just to win initiative and keep wailing at it becomes a more debatable plan. Though it would bring the problem of you knowing next time you go first... OK, my fix ain't so hot, but what I'm getting at is that I've also had a few games where winning initiative meant winning or losing, period and this isn't the only alternating activation game where this happens, would just like to see some way to mitigate it.

[Setoth]

Quite the inverse in many cases, actually. For example, if Cassandra's Southern Charm stayed on until the end of her next activation, her opponent winning Initiative might not be the death sentence it usually is for her.

I've pretty much written off Malifaux 1.5 as a game that can be fixed to be anything more than casual with a very narrow set of tournament options, so if I start talking about rules changes, it's a safe bet that I am referring to the next edition.

I think we've started to see some recognition of that with book 4. Torekage, for example, and their smokescreens. I love that trigger precisely because keeping it beyond the start of the next turn creates a lot of strategic possibilities...that smoke screen can be up for roughly as long as you need it. Hell, a single trigger could keep the smokescreen up for the entirety of two turns if the Torekage activates first on the turn it uses the smokescreen and activates last on the turn right after.

[Jonas Albrecht]

I think the problem that jonas is saying/talking about is just why would I give up initiative to buff something, when you can use initiative to just kill that which threatens your models.

This is exactly my point. Tough Choices and Balance and all the other **** have nothing to do with it.

[i_was_like_you]

Being able to initiate a turn in this game to set the pace of the rest of the turn is absurdly powerful. Also it really grates me only one faction ever gets any effect on those flips. It would be one thing if insidious madness where outcast faction and be able to be hired by any crew but only one faction has models that effect the most important flips of the game (azoraida, doppleganger, insidious madness) and people wonder why a certain faction places so well in national convention tournaments (granted their our a crap ton of other benefits they get but effecting the pace of a turn is something I believe that no faction should have the benefit off).

Well, Kirai can hire Insidious Madness, being a spirit and all, so it's not entirely limited to NB players. I would, however, like to see either the Doppelganger gain something that would allow it to be hired out of faction (like Mercenary and Aetheric Demands; Sword Vikie is a Doppelganer, afterall), or a similar initiative modding effect being present on a new model that could be hired out to other factions.

I do think that the timing of certain effects, buffs or otherwise, could stand for a revision. To use the Magic the Gathering example, Until End of Turn would be so much easier than End of Activations, Start Closing, Closing, End Closing, Draw, Begin Activations, etc. [Yes, I know Magic has several steps and phases, but it's allowing certain effects to happen only during certain ones. Malifaux is splitting the End of Turn style effects into several sub-sections, with very little meaningful differences, in most cases.]

Like Regeneration, for instance. It doesn't kick in until that model activates. So now, instead of just a buff, we have to consider activating that model first, just so it doesn't die, so that it can regen to hope to live long enough to do enough damage that they still don't kill it this turn. Having Regen happen at, say, the Start of the Activation Phase (upkeep?), like Kang's Can't Keep Him Down would be much more useful. The only difference, then, would be that Kang's regen happens to get better as the game goes on, whereas others have a set number. [I would like to see the opposite of Kang in a model, that regens a bunch of wounds and then gets less and less of a reprieve in subsequent turns.]

As far as the OP chess analogy, it can pay huge dividends, as the situation allows, to perform feints, to hopefully draw the opponent's attention away from the models that you are worried about, and get them focusing on some altogether different model. Heck, accidentally getting them to focus on a model can be great. [See the eternal grudge my usual players have against the Electrical Creation. They go to great lengths to cap my wub-wub, when there are usually far more dangerous threats well within their ranges.]

[Kadeton]

Surely the answer would be "Those buffs are useful when you can't deal with the threatening target without them." That's where Tough Choices comes into it. Yeah, if you don't use the buffs because you don't need them, they won't get used much, but so what? Is it a problem that some models have abilities that are situationally useful?

If you feel like you can't achieve what you want to do because you need to activate a buffing model and a buffed model before the next enemy activation, that's an outcome of good game design (and you're being outplayed). If you don't use your buffs because you don't need them to do what you want, then just do what you want? I don't see the issue there. Sometimes you WILL need them, so that's fine.

[Jonas Albrecht]

that's an outcome of good game design (and you're being outplayed).

I could not disagree more. For example, positioning yourself to gain a two-to-one advantage against an enemy model, and not being able to use a buff without losing initiative is not "being outplayed". It's also indicative of game design that fails to take into account its own set up.

[i_was_like_you]

Maybe opt for crews with more Companion options?

Win initiative and activate both of the guys in position to take on the enemy two-to-one. Buff, attack, activate next model, attack with buff.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Maybe opt for crews with more Companion options?

Win initiative and activate both of the guys in position to take on the enemy two-to-one. Buff, attack, activate next model, attack with buff.

I'm not making this thread searching for an answer to personal stumbling blocks.

I realize this is a forum full of wargamers, but sometimes "play better" isn't the answer.