Do special Forces hurts Arcanists?

[nix]

In another thread Usiel posted the following:

Rising Powers has a number of good models, but has some of the worst rules language and model balance. Plus, Special Forces... this concept really needs overhauled, it works completely differently between factions. Arcanists are hurt by the restriction, Guild seem to not care, Ophelia, Collodi and Von Schill run their crews just fine, and Molly... poor Molly :Sad_Puppet2:

I did not want to derail that thread, but wanted to get some further thoughts on Usiel's feeling that special forces hurts Arcanists. I have not found this to be the case personally. I use Kaeris alone to run her own crew, and have seen a lot of people talk about using her as henchman to all the rest of the Arcanists except Colette. I actually feel that Kaeris was pretty solid to start with, then Union Miners were added which made Johan more viable, then book 4 came along with a whole bunch of M&SU Members and Assets (Rail Golem, Rail Workers, Kang, Willie).

Could anyone (Usiel or others) expound on how they feel Special Forces hurt Arcanists?

[Subötai]

I do not agree with the sentiment, but I have heard it said that the inability to mix, M&SU Assets and Freikorps hurts the flexilbility of the Faction, but honestly, I think trying to make a 40K gun line with these models will hurt more, because that is not always the best wat to accomplish one's strategy, and schemes.

[i_was_like_you]

Well, it may be a moot point, but Kaeris-led crews suffer from the I can't even hire a totem or an effigy even if I wanted to problem.

The Guild does seem to not care. They either have Lucius and Elite Division models, or they just need one or two of 'em anyways (like Ryle in a Hoff crew).

I still haven't delved into Seamus or Molly girl, but she did just get Yin as a consolation prize for whatever complaints folks have had for her.

VonSchill makes everyone have a wonderful day with some extra mercs, only curtailing their chances at an effigy and removing Student of Conflict from their totem choices (for non-Outcasts, anyways).

Having both Ramos and Kaeris lift the two model limit seems like it should help, more than hinder Arcanists.

Same goes for Zoraida and Collodi.

Gremlins, well, like the Guild, they can run full Kin, or they can just take a couple and they're fine, as well.

[Usiel]

Hey, to expand on what I mean:

I like the SF's in the Arcanists, use them all the time... which is why I don't like the SF rules. There are some builds I would love to try out, but I can't due to conflicting special forces. For example, I've never yet used the Arcane Effigy... wanted to take 2 LSPA's and a rail golem with Mei and can't... Maybe all factions face this issue and it's working as intended; I play Arcanists and Ressers and my primary opponents are Guild and Outcasts, and I don't get the same feel from Special Forces for those other factions. Like I said, I'd love to see the concept of SF's revised and expanded, thoughts?

Well put! Kaeris and Ramos are fine for leading crews (although, yeah, it'd be nice to be able to take a totem with Kaeris). I shouldn't have said that the rules hurt Arcanists so much as affect them more than, IMO, other factions.

Edited January 22, 2013 by Usiel

[i_was_like_you]

I am looking forward to whatever the heck it is they have in store for the Special Forces as, with the current rules, in a Brawl, we're supposed to have access to up to one Henchman per Master. However, that's not possible until they either add a second Henchman per special force (maybe Hannah is the second Freikorps Henchwoman?), or, as was hinted at with the Ronin (yes, I'll keep beating this dead horse) that there may be some kind of Henchman template that certain models will be able to upgrade to. [The biggest problem I've seen with that idea is how do we assign a Henchman pool. See any upgrade Nekima thread for more on that dilemma.]

[CRC]

For example, I've never yet used the Arcane Effigy... wanted to take 2 LSPA's and a rail golem with Mei and can't... Maybe all factions face this issue and it's working as intended;

I may be being cynical, but I feel this was by design. The Effigyies are functionally Neverborne models, but do to faction-model-balance restrictions, they have to be printed in other factions. The SF rules are structured to make sure they're primarily played in their intended faction.

[Clevelander]

I find Kaeris to be incredibly capable as a leader for most strategies. She has a robust variety of models at her disposal, and I've never found myself hurting for lack of a totem. While it would definitely be nice to have the option for a totem, in most cases, I'd probably spend the points on other minions.

My biggest problem with the special forces limitation is the restriction on Union Miners in non-Kaeris crews. I rarely want less than 3 of them, and often I also want a rail golem. Unfortunately, the only way to allow this is to also pay an 8 pt Kaeris tax. Its totally playable this way, and maybe the restriction adds a bit of thematic flavor to the game. However, it also steals some of the flexibility from my crews.

Edited January 22, 2013 by Clevelander

[geistwald]

In my opinion SF rules are as restricting as any other rules that people don't object. It's restricting that Cassandra is U instead of FA3 etc. The SF ruling would only be flawed if it worked differently between factions, and while there is room for debate on this (hi Molly), Arcanists can't really complain in either case.

That said, the allocation of the M&SU Member characteristic is a bit weird, which hurts the Arcanist special forces more than SF restrictions. Also I can't imagine why would the Essence of Power be an overkill for the stand-alone Kaeris. Last but not least, Johan should be errata'd to gain Smoldering Heart. He's the very definition of the ability, really

[FearLord]

There are some builds I would love to try out, but I can't due to conflicting special forces. For example... wanted to take 2 LSPA's and a rail golem with Mei and can't...

Well, you can - you just have to take Kaeris as well. At 27ss for all of those models its a huge chunk of a 35ss list, but its completely possible...

[Dumb Luck]

Playing Special Forces Outcasts isn't too much different from playing non Special Forces Outcasts. We have a limited slecetion of models regardless! Infact, playing with a Hnechman as the leader is beneficial in some cases as you get the Hench Reserve to put into your cache - rather than your full points!

[Nephalumps]

I don't think its necessarily the special forces rules that mess with Arcanists, but more the quality of those models (and how they compare to other Arcanist minions.) The M&SU Assests list includes some awesome models, and I think its relatively common for an Arcanist player to run into a list building clash because of it.

As others have said, this is probably by design, but it does feel much more noticeable in Arcanist. I never run into similar issues when building Neverborn or Ressers lists.

I think the issue is not that the special forces rules need to change. I think more of the non-special forces minions in Arcanists need to not suck.

[Mach_5]

I just think it odd that Kaeris can't hire totems herself but it's ok to connect one hired by a master. Seems more like an oversight to me rather than a balance issue and I'm surprised it hasn't been errata'd already.

[i_was_like_you]

That said, the allocation of the M&SU Member characteristic is a bit weird, which hurts the Arcanist special forces more than SF restrictions. Also I can't imagine why would the Essence of Power be an overkill for the stand-alone Kaeris. Last but not least, Johan should be errata'd to gain Smoldering Heart. He's the very definition of the ability, really

Heck, Molly has a leg up on Kaeris in that department: SF Leader (Horror): A Crew led by this model may only hire Horrors, Belles, and Totems. Instead of, SF Leader (M&SU Asset): Crews led by this model may only hire M&SU Members or M&SU Assets.

Maybe add and Totems to that list.

Heck, Lucius (SF Elite Division) also has and Totems. VonSchill gets Freikorps and Mercenaries...which are quite the list and include two totems, even if the Malifaux Child is, well...Ophelia has the quite overlapping Gremlin and Kin, which allows for her three totems. I think only Collodi, with his pool of 8, should be restricted to just one thing, Dolls, and, thanks to the Stitched and the Effigies, can be quite versatile.

----------------

A bit off topic, but I'd like to see a Master or Henchman who can hire any totem, even those that are supposed to be Master specific, and, would be able to hire whatever multiples the original Master could hire. For instance 3 Young LaCroix, 2 Vultures, 4 Mosquitoes, 3 Doves...Commandeering Levi's Totem Simulator Waifs might be too much, but it'd still be fun to see. Word it so that the Totem replaces all instances of its original Master with the new Master.

[Kadeton]

I think there's a definite discrepancy in the number and quality of the Arcanists' Special Forces. The Guild don't have too much of a problem with the Elite Division, because most of it's garbage (Ryle is okay). The Neverborn use Dolls with Collodi or Zoraida, and nobody else really wants them. For the Outcasts, the Freikorps are great but Von Schill is always the first one you want to hire, which removes the restriction, and the same goes for the Kin with Ophelia.

The Arcanists' M&SU Assets include the Rail Golem, LSPAs, Gunsmiths, Soulstone Miner, Union Miners - they are all great models who can easily find a place in (non-Colette) Arcanist crews. Ressers have a similar problem, but their cream-of-the-crop Special Forces are only Yin and the Rogue Necro - with only two real choices, Special Forces is a much less restrictive limitation.

I do think the Arcanists' problem is mitigated somewhat by the fact that Kaeris is such a powerhouse, but it should still be acknowledged that a greater proportion of their best models are Special Forces than in any other faction.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I personally don't think that Kaeris and Collodi's inability to hire Totems when leading a crew is an oversight. I'm pretty certain it was deliberate.

Edited January 23, 2013 by Fetid Strumpet

[i_was_like_you]

Deliberately perturbing.

Sure, Ramos tends to go light on the stones, so Kaeris can have full rein of them, but including her cost in the crew offsets any gains in stones he might be able to fill with other models (not that she doesn't make up for it, though). And Colette bleeps out stones like crazy, if she wants to.

[insert clever remarks about her synergies, if any, with Marcus, Rasputina, and Mei Feng]

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Since Ramos ignores assest rule, only master in arcanist that I see wanting more than 2 asset is Mei Feng. I am just really struggling to understand most of the arguments in this thread. Maybe if I saw a couple list that ignores the sf rule would help me understand.

The point on effigy. The effigy is nice but yeah I struggle to fit it in when one asset would be better. All factions face this issue who have good effigies. Plus with arcanist I would take student any since ap boost can go to any model.

Edited January 23, 2013 by Mr. Bigglesworth

[*Jack*]

I think there's more competition for slots than there is in other factions - Or, atleast, it's noticed a lot more.

Take guild, outcasts and rezzers to an extent - They have a few models who are SF, and you'd never really want more than two, unless you're taking the associated henchman. Only exception might be the crooligans, but rezzers have better options than that. Neverborn, IMO, don't really use the slots unless you're taking effigies, as stitched are dolls, but not SF:dolls, and wicked dolls and marrionettes are only really taken with collodi. (Or summoded with Z)

However, arcanists have a lot of competition for those two slots, and its getting a bit worse. This is without Kaeris of course, but she's not always necessary, and not useful in some strategies.

Book 2 had Gunsmiths, a really good minion for its cost and useful in most lists. LSA is also great for 5 points, (especially for ARamos but he ignores it).

Book 3 had union miners and book 4 had willie, and the rail golem - Really good minions, arguably the best from the arcanist section (Other than kang... KANG HO.) IMO, which makes it all the more problematic to take only 2 SF, or commit to kaeris and not really have the points to take 3.

[decker_cky]

Willie isn't special forces.

Where I've noticed it has been mostly with Mei Feng. She has a lot of chemistry with lots of different M&SU assets, with rail golem + 2 LSPA being the most obvious.

3 union miners are another one that limits you quickly. I'd like to take those in a Marcus crew sometimes (marcus + union type crew).

Gunsmith gets squeezed out by 1-2 other M&SU members too.

[FearLord]

Book 3 had union miners and book 4 had willie, and the rail golem - Really good minions, arguably the best from the arcanist section (Other than kang... KANG HO.) IMO, which makes it all the more problematic to take only 2 SF, or commit to kaeris and not really have the points to take 3.

Willie isn't special forces...

[Nephalumps]

Three more thoughts about the M&SU Special Forces:

1) It's odd that the Union Miners are part of the Special Forces. Like, I understand how they'd want them to be part of a Kaeris crew, and Ramos circumvents any hiring restrictions on them so he doesn't run into any issues. But anyone else who may want to bring them along is limited to only 2, which doesn't seem to be at all worth it. Considering how fluffy those models are (and kinda neat for their cost,) it's odd that they'd lump them into the Special Forces, and not just give them some other rule that allows Kaeris to hire them (like they did with the Fire Gamin.)

2) The Union Miners are an example of what tends to make the M&SU Assets SF frustrating: most or all of the options available in that SF are great for their SS cost, particularly when compared to what else Arcanists have to offer. The Union Miner is pretty good for 4 SS, the LSPA is great for 5 SS, the Gunsmiths are awesome for 6 SS, and the Rail Golem is fantastic for 9 SS. That's probably by design, and Ramos (the guy who wants them all) gets around the restriction, but it's odd to look at when you compare the other SF to M&SU Assets.

3) The clash also comes up more often in Arcanists versus other factions, in my opinion, because the Arcane Effigy is really useful to a number of the Masters in that faction. Most of the other Effigies are cute-but-not-great, but the Arcane Effigy has some very useful abilities that synch up well with a number of the Arcanist Masters. However, because its part of the Doll SF, you end up bouncing out all those delicious M&SU Assets, which can be a really tough call to make. Similar to the last point, I think this is by design (it's one of the only times I've seen the "can't hire from >1 SF" rule actually matter,) but I don't think any of the other factions run into a similar conundrum.

[decker_cky]

Arcane effigy is a non-factor IMO. Every Arcanist master has a better and cheaper totem available, and only one arcanist master will regularly be going avatar (Ramos, whose totem makes his requirements super easy). I think the Arcane effigy is wonderful with almost every Neverborn master, but I wouldn't take it in an arcanist crew even if it lost the special forces restriction.

I agree on the union miners and LSPA in particular. Both are the kind of solid value cheap minions that fill out crews, but they're heavily restricted. If the LSPA was not Rare 2 and a special force, I'd consider 3 in a Mei Feng crew, and I think Ramos might use it for something more than cheap early game scrap counters. Neither are so good that extras would be a real issue, but they're better than other generic options in that price bracket.

[Odin1981]

I think the main thing that people our forgetting in this argument is if you want to run more than two you hire kaeris as a henchmen and the 2 restriction for special forces is removed. And also lets be honest even if you hire her as henchmen she is not a bad investment for the cost (high damage immolates on non i2i models, or low damage board control via gun+accelerant, in addition to being a ss user).

Granted I only play 3 masters of the faction (ramos, colette, and mei) but really anytime you want to run more than two just run kaeris for 8ss's. It is less than 25% of your total list at 35ss games and slightly more than 25% at 30ss. Granted at 25ss you probably cannot do this but really who consistantley plays at that level once you have bought more than 1 crew box anyway.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Well, add the fact that I think the difficulty of choice is an intentional part of the Special Forces system.

I think you are supposed to have to make hard choices between models available. It just so happens that the other factions don't have those choices to make yet.

[i_was_like_you]

Three more thoughts about the M&SU Special Forces:

1) It's odd that the Union Miners are part of the Special Forces. Like, I understand how they'd want them to be part of a Kaeris crew, and Ramos circumvents any hiring restrictions on them so he doesn't run into any issues. But anyone else who may want to bring them along is limited to only 2, which doesn't seem to be at all worth it. Considering how fluffy those models are (and kinda neat for their cost,) it's odd that they'd lump them into the Special Forces, and not just give them some other rule that allows Kaeris to hire them (like they did with the Fire Gamin.)

That'd be an easy fix. Just make them M&SU Members instead of assets. They are, afterall, the bulk of what the run of the mill M&SU Members should be. They pay their dues. They know their union may not be perfect. They hate the Guild's iron-fisted control. But, they have no idea that the leader of their union, or its top ranking members, are part of the Arcanist movement.

Marcus should be able to take an angry mob of them along without having to have Kaeris play middle manager for him. Colette should be able to have a gaggle of off-duty miners enjoying a show at the Star when suddenly a Guild crew bursts in to investigate allegations of black market soulstone smuggling. They'd defend those pretty ladies with their lives.