Madame Sybelle vs Molly for Seamus?

[D-A-C]

Hey everyone.

I'm just wondering what the consensus opinion is on Madame Sybelle?

I personally think she is an awesome character in terms of looks, fluff and is pretty solid for 6ss in terms of survivabilty, offence and chain activating Seamus' Belle crews.

But after having recently purchased Molly (have yet to use her) I was just wondering if Madame Sybelle should maybe be changed out more often than not in favour of Molly?

I know that Malifaux crews aren't pre-built one-size-fits all, but I'm just wondering if any more experienced players could maybe suggest times when Molly or Sybelle would be superior choices i.e vs certain crews either one is weak or near useless or during certain schemes etc?

We generally play 25ss at my gaming group and I usually run:

Seamus - 3ss Cache

Madame Sybelle w/ Grave Spirit

x3 Rotten Belles

Onryo

But I'm thinking of switching this up for:

Seamus + Avatar of Dread - 2ss Cache

Molly Squidpiddge

Copy Cat Killer

x3 Rotten Belles

My thinking is, that let's face it, Seamus crews 9 time out of 10 succeed or fail off of the success of the Master himself. My new list is focused entirely around helping Seamus succeed rather than dissipating the crews focus into other areas such as Sybelle as an alternate source of Offence or the Onryo.

The new crew will get all of its offence entire from Seamus (and that's why I added CCK for an extra 50. Flintlock and his Avatar for all the nastiness that brings to his game) and will have Molly and the Belles focus entirely on helping to buff Seamus, debuff enemies and do the heavy lifting when it comes to objective interactions. Also, because Seamus will try and manifest into his Avatar at some point Molly can take over alot of Seamus duties such as summoning and buffing the Belles movement.

Plus, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but I have read that Molly can actually summon Madame Sybelle should two corpse counters make themselves available, so the old buxom girl can still posibble make the odd appearence at the cost of maybe a Belle and an enemy crew corpse?

Anyway, I'm just wondering if this is a good idea to switch out Sybelle for Molly, and if you have any ideas for situations were one could possibly be more beneficial than the other.

Thanks

[Clement]

I can't speak to Seamus based lists too much (don't own him yet), but you might want to drop the CCK for a grave spirit if only because it can be attached to Molly. Seamus tends to activate sooner rather then later, and when he does his attached totem is removed.

[D-A-C]

I can't speak to Seamus based lists too much (don't own him yet), but you might want to drop the CCK for a grave spirit if only because it can be attached to Molly. Seamus tends to activate sooner rather then later, and when he does his attached totem is removed.

See, I'm glad I asked this question already, I never even thought of that, so it seems that CCK is a bit of a waste in that type of crew.

But I have also read that Molly is already pretty tough to take out without the grave spirit anyway, so maybe I could just use the 2 SS saved from CCK to buff Seamus' really low SS cache, that way he would have a couple more to burn on defence should he need it, have a couple extra to maximize his Flintlock shots before manifesting and also they could be of some use to Molly in her casting as she is very suit dependant somewhat unreliable.

[Boshea]

If you can fit her in, take Molly simply because she can summon Sybelle. In an avatar list Molly is better simply because she can make use of the corpses to summon in more models, as well as having some decent WP focused stuff of her own.

[Gruesome]

For me, the two do not have an similarity in use. I cannot recall ever having thought about taking one of them vs. the other.

I have often taken both with Seamus. I have often taken only Molly with other masters.

I seldom take Sybelle without Molly unless whatever list I was building happened to have the right SS left after other models I wanted and getting my cache to where I wanted it. With a Grave Spirit attached to her, she can be pretty hardy.

[Mehter]

I don't think Sybelle has been all that useful since the release of Rising Powers, much less now.

Molly can pull some shenanigans for sure, though.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Take neither. Take the Dead rider or Izamu.

[edonil]

I will admit, I'm looking forward to trying Seamus with Izamu...that just seems like fun shenanigans. Sure, Izamu isn't the quick...which is why you position Belles behind him to reel in targets... *grin*

[Kadeton]

Take neither. Take the Dead rider or Izamu.

Heh. There's certainly something to be said for this.

I think both Molly and Sybelle are fine, and Molly in particular is incredible if you want to complete the Bodyguard scheme. However, at 25 SS you could probably get more bang for your buck.

Sybelle gets better the more Belles you have, but mainly to form a Companion chain. Molly is better the more variety of spells you have to copy (i.e. the more different kinds of models available), but at 25 stones you can't afford to throw in the toys she needs to be really effective.

You also really, really need to up your cache a bit, in my opinion. Between Seamus' crappy stats and Molly's Slow to Die healing and the occasional boosted spell, you can burn through a lot of stones. At a minimum, I'd recommend 6 stones.

At the end of the day, though, I'd suggest that Molly is better in 35 SS games. At the 25 SS level, she's just too expensive - by buying her, you can't afford to take the models that she needs to support.

[D-A-C]

Thanks for all the responses guys. After having spent the night flicking through combinations of the models I have it always comes down to changes that need to be made with how Seamus and Molly actually play on the tabletop as much as crew selection lol.

The pool of models I have available is:

Seamus

Molly Squidpiddge

Avatar of Dread

Copy Cat Killer

Grave Spirit

Madame Sybelle

x3 Rotten Belles

x2 Dead Doxies

x2 Onryo

x2 Canine Remains

Bete Noir

The problem I always face is that if I fill out a crew with models I think work well, then Seamus is left with a ridiculously low SS cache of 2, also, looking at Molly if she stayed as she was (faults and all) having her cost 8 SS would make her alot easier to take when combined with Seamus IMO.

I guess my kind of thinking behind the discussion of Molly vs Sybelle is more:

How can I build a crew around Seamus that is solely selected in order to maximize his strengths and minimize his weaknesses? In otherwords, Seamus is the lifeblood of the entire crew (which he essentially is anyway) and so rather than buying a big expensive model like Dead Rider, which simply depletes attention away from maximizing Seamus, instead spend those 10ss on models that are there entirely to make him better and help him achieve his goals

So...

1. I think that unlike alot of masters Seamus' Avatar really ups his game alot by getting him Anathema so he effects all models with terrifying, becomes a melee juggernaut and generally transposes from a nimble killer in the shadows to a beatstick at usually around the time when his Soulstone cache to maiximize his 50. Flintlock and keep him alive has been used up.

So starting with that, I think that no matter what that belongs in his crew even at 25ss.

2. Next he needs his Belles. I used to run three, but I have found that to be excessive, I think 2 is usually the magic number even at higher SS levels. These two are used to both pull others towards Seamus and pull him out to safety should the need arise and they can be used to interact with any objectives.

3. I believe that these first two things are always the base of any Seamus crew, so as I play at 25ss most commonly, this leaves me exactly 17 SS to play with. HOWEVER, as we all know Seamus needs a bigger cache and I think 2 soulstones extra is a decent enough amount to spend keeping him alive and getting around 2 full 50. Hand Cannon shots off.

So that means I have 15 SS to spend on models.

4. Now, if I go ahead and spend 9ss on Molly, the trouble is, that that 4ss Cache needs to be split between them both, and that is just too few IMO. So realistically I need to add another 2 extra to bring the cache to 6, and so in reality, I'm bringing Molly along for 11ss ... and looking at it that is one hell of a points sink.

But, Molly's saving grace is that unlike Dead Rider or Izamu, she is solely there to help Seamus and his existing two Belles and can either be used as the perfect model for the 'Bodyguard' scheme or suicide a high threat model with Philosophy of Uncertainty.

5. On the other hand, Madame Sybelle w/ Grave Spirit costs only 7ss and adds some more offensive punch to the crew. BUT ... the problem with the buxom Sybelle is that, based on my playing experiences, she is very much her own woman, I don't really see what she is bringing to the table that is specific to buffing Seamus which is kind of what I am experimenting with?

In all the games I've played with her and Seamus 9/10 people still target Seamus and charge him down and attempt to kill him the first chance they get, and whilst Madame Sybelle can sometimes punish this by running interference between Seamus and the enemy (usally a master like Lady Justice, Perdita, Lilth etc), I can't tell you how many times I've ended up with Madame Sybelle alive but Seamus Dead. And at that point in the game, its usually lost unless that is near the very last turn.

Summary

If you've made it this far thank you for reading what is essentially a post that is me writing my thoughts down to better find a way to go forward with my Seamus crew.

At the moment my crew selection options come down to these two lists based on the logic I've come up with so far:

Potential 25ss lists

Seamus - 2ss

Avatar of Dread

Molly Squidpiddge

x2 Rotten Belles

(6 Soulstones left to spend, but need to prob keep 2-4 for Seamus and Molly shared Cache)

Seamus - 2ss

Avatar of Dread

Madame Sybelle w/ Grave Spirit

x2 Rotten Belles

(8 Soul Stones left to spend and need to only keep 2 spare to buff Seamus Cache to a decent 4)

So as you can see in both instances my thinking of crew choices always hits the brick wall of Seamus meager SS cache of 2 and perhaps that Molly is ever-so-slightly overcosted.

Looking at it, Molly seems to be doing exactly what I want ... buffing Seamus, because with the crew that features her there is no way victory is happening without Seamus alive and kicking, on the other hand, what is Madame Sybelle actually doing?

She is a middle of the road offensive model, that can potentially allow a few alpha strike type moves ... but with Belles, not the Ortega's!!!

I'm really tempted at 25ss to run with Seamus, Avatar, Molly, x2 Belles and maybe one other model or just the full cache of 8. But is that too small a crew or is it severly limited in some way that makes running it a bit useless?

Because honestly (and maybe this is lack of sleep talking) but it seems it would be much better if Sybelle is the better option to just drop her entirely and pay around 3-4 extra SS for a model like Dead Rider or Izamu and go full beatstick with them, while Seamus skulks around in the background looking for weaknesses and isolated or wounded models.

I hope this post makes sense, What do you guys think?

Edited January 21, 2013 by D-A-C

[Gruesome]

I suspect that for any scenario that I used to consider Sybelle, that I will be looking to dig up an extra 2 SS and getting Yin instead. But we'll see... Have yet to put her on the table.

I still believe that given the right situation that Molly is great.

... But that given MOST situations, she is not worth the points as compared to the many other consistent options available.

As soon as I start playing masters not named Yan Lo again, I will likely play her again as I like her, but I have no illusions about her being "competitive".

My victories with her have generally been far more attributable to less experienced opponents than any other single factor.

That having been said...

I have every intention of trying out some straight up Seamus fluff with all the new strategies.

The VP scored from turn 2 forward and a table full of lures from sped up belles could very well bring a lot of help to Seamus+Molly.

They are still not a killing crew, but never forget VP is the game...

So we ought not to rule anything out yet.

Edited January 21, 2013 by Gruesome

[Fetid Strumpet]

It is true that with the new strategies I may have to re-examine Molly and Sybelle, but in general I find them not worth their costs. I have had situations where both of them have turned games for me in the past, but they required multiple specific things to go well, and they often don't.

The issue again comes down to reliability. The only reliable things that Sybelle brings to the table are her Terror score, which Terror as a main tactic doesn't work too well, and her ability to companion Rotten Belles. She can't even companion all Belles, as it is the Rotten belle who has the companion trait, so she doesn't even have much synergy with Molly. A little extra dmg on her crop, an extra action of some kind, the ability to companion all Belles, or the ability to reliably cast Call Belle would possibly make her more useful. And sure for a 6 SS model she was pretty resilient at 9 wds and def 5 with h2w. For book one days she was pretty tough to remove, but that's not as resilient as it once was with the way dmg and hitting have climbed, and how other model's defenses have evolved.

Molly is just too expensive, while she can do a few amazing things she can't do them reliably, and at the end of the day she is a 9 SS support model that doesn't offer enough support for her cost. For a little bit more than her cost the Ressers can take the Dead Rider or Izamu, who yes have a different role, but that role will be much more useful more often than Molly could even hope to be. The dead rider and Izamu offer very good resilient models, who depending on master can be Super Resilient or hyper fast. Both can be exceptionally speedy, and they provide control, both in terms of the fact that they can actually kill models, removing them from the board, and just their sheer "weight of importance" in the game, they have to be dealt with. Molly is not the support model that Collodi, who is cheaper btw, provides to his marionettes and dolls, or the superstar of control and dmg Kaeris is, and she is less fast and less useful than the similarly pointed Von Schill. The only thing she really brings to the crew on a reliable, turn by turn basis is Terrible Secret, which is a totally awesome debuff, but you need other models to really take advantage of it. At her cost, with her lack of an extra Ap, she is hard pressed to often make best use of that spell, and that the master she is with often doesn't have the extra SS to put into models that can support her debuffs.

Now I've personally found in my meta that the changes to the proposed strategies are a really good step for the game, but at least in the meta I was playing in we were finding they encouraged combat to an even larger degree, in which case I'm not sure Molly and Sybelle are going to find themselves in any greater need than they were before.

After trying the Dead Rider, and Izamu it is very hard to justify ever bringing Molly as point for point she often fails to deliver on the amount of points invested, whereas I've never felt that the Dead Rider or Izamu have ever failed to justify the amount of points spent.

I totally respect that they serve different roles, but 9 SS for a support model that doesn't offer as useful support as 2 Rotten Belles, and drains the SS pool of the funds to recruit the models she could support,...

I really regret this as Molly is one of my favorite characters in the game.

Edited January 21, 2013 by Fetid Strumpet

[DeleteAccount]

New strategies?! What did I miss?!

[D-A-C]

Yeah, but the only problem with your thinking is that ... why take Seamus?

Essentially you guys have reversed it so that Izamu and Dead Rider are really effective and tough beatsticks that are hard for opponents to deal with, but isn't that just as much the case with McMourning and Nicodem? In fact, wouldn't they be even stronger Masters for these models?

My point evolved from Molly vs Sybelle for Seamus to, how do we make Seamus work?

Dead Rider with Seamus seems like; "Well if we add a tough model to the crew that will take the heat off of Seamus a while" and if that's the case, simply choose the best and toughest model for around 8-12 SS and be done with it. But what exactly is making anyone take Seamus (other than his good looks of course lol)?

Seamus, it seems to me, a master that demands that his crew revolves around himself, yet the problem it seems is that he is a Book 1 Master so he doesn't have a series of models that work amazingly well in combination with one another the way Kirai crews do for example.

'Core' Seamus is:

Seamus

Avatar

Molly

CCK

Sybelle

Rotten Belle

Dead Doxies

The problem with these models is that several of them feel somewhat off in terms of rules, cost or both when compared to newier Masters, and that whilst are linked together thematically, don't reliably augment one and other to make each other better.

However, then we have models that Seamus can make use of while still conforming to his playstyle:

Grave Spirit - This essentially belongs on Madame Sybelle and is almost an auto-include to her SS cost lol

Crooked Men - Solid for their points and can do well with Belles movement manipulation

Onryo - Mark of the Jigoku helps to an extent with crews that are immune to WP duels and they are also a cheap form of damage output

Hanged - Have have experience with them, but they are supposedly decent with Seamus as they are tough and effect WP

All the rest of the models either don't work with Seamus effectively (The Drowned, Nurses etc) or just do what they do ultimately regardless of Master (Dead Rider, Night Terror, Bete Noir etc).

What I was discussing was 'internal to the workings of the Master Seamus' which is a more effective choice Madame Sybelle or Molly?

Sure neither is a good option compared to Dead Rider, but what is Seamus doing for Dead Rider that Nicodem wouldn't improve upon, therefore meaning you would be better taking Dead Rider and Nicodem anyway?

I think Seamus has a very definite themed list (and I don't mean in terms of story) but I mean in terms of maximizing what he does as a Master. So what I guess I'm attempting to discuss and figure out is which of the models that work in conjuntion with him are the best and in what situation?

[Pierowmaniac]

Thanks for all the responses guys. After having spent the night flicking through combinations of the models I have it always comes down to changes that need to be made with how Seamus and Molly actually play on the tabletop as much as crew selection lol.

The pool of models I have available is:

Seamus

Molly Squidpiddge

Avatar of Dread

Copy Cat Killer

Grave Spirit

Madame Sybelle

x3 Rotten Belles

x2 Dead Doxies

x2 Onryo

x2 Canine Remains

Bete Noir

The problem I always face is that if I fill out a crew with models I think work well, then Seamus is left with a ridiculously low SS cache of 2, also, looking at Molly if she stayed as she was (faults and all) having her cost 8 SS would make her alot easier to take when combined with Seamus IMO.

I guess my kind of thinking behind the discussion of Molly vs Sybelle is more:

How can I build a crew around Seamus that is solely selected in order to maximize his strengths and minimize his weaknesses? In otherwords, Seamus is the lifeblood of the entire crew (which he essentially is anyway) and so rather than buying a big expensive model like Dead Rider, which simply depletes attention away from maximizing Seamus, instead spend those 10ss on models that are there entirely to make him better and help him achieve his goals

So...

1. I think that unlike alot of masters Seamus' Avatar really ups his game alot by getting him Anathema so he effects all models with terrifying, becomes a melee juggernaut and generally transposes from a nimble killer in the shadows to a beatstick at usually around the time when his Soulstone cache to maiximize his 50. Flintlock and keep him alive has been used up.

So starting with that, I think that no matter what that belongs in his crew even at 25ss.

2. Next he needs his Belles. I used to run three, but I have found that to be excessive, I think 2 is usually the magic number even at higher SS levels. These two are used to both pull others towards Seamus and pull him out to safety should the need arise and they can be used to interact with any objectives.

3. I believe that these first two things are always the base of any Seamus crew, so as I play at 25ss most commonly, this leaves me exactly 17 SS to play with. HOWEVER, as we all know Seamus needs a bigger cache and I think 2 soulstones extra is a decent enough amount to spend keeping him alive and getting around 2 full 50. Hand Cannon shots off.

So that means I have 15 SS to spend on models.

4. Now, if I go ahead and spend 9ss on Molly, the trouble is, that that 4ss Cache needs to be split between them both, and that is just too few IMO. So realistically I need to add another 2 extra to bring the cache to 6, and so in reality, I'm bringing Molly along for 11ss ... and looking at it that is one hell of a points sink.

But, Molly's saving grace is that unlike Dead Rider or Izamu, she is solely there to help Seamus and his existing two Belles and can either be used as the perfect model for the 'Bodyguard' scheme or suicide a high threat model with Philosophy of Uncertainty.

5. On the other hand, Madame Sybelle w/ Grave Spirit costs only 7ss and adds some more offensive punch to the crew. BUT ... the problem with the buxom Sybelle is that, based on my playing experiences, she is very much her own woman, I don't really see what she is bringing to the table that is specific to buffing Seamus which is kind of what I am experimenting with?

In all the games I've played with her and Seamus 9/10 people still target Seamus and charge him down and attempt to kill him the first chance they get, and whilst Madame Sybelle can sometimes punish this by running interference between Seamus and the enemy (usally a master like Lady Justice, Perdita, Lilth etc), I can't tell you how many times I've ended up with Madame Sybelle alive but Seamus Dead. And at that point in the game, its usually lost unless that is near the very last turn.

Summary

If you've made it this far thank you for reading what is essentially a post that is me writing my thoughts down to better find a way to go forward with my Seamus crew.

At the moment my crew selection options come down to these two lists based on the logic I've come up with so far:

Potential 25ss lists

Seamus - 2ss

Avatar of Dread

Molly Squidpiddge

x2 Rotten Belles

(6 Soulstones left to spend, but need to prob keep 2-4 for Seamus and Molly shared Cache)

Seamus - 2ss

Avatar of Dread

Madame Sybelle w/ Grave Spirit

x2 Rotten Belles

(8 Soul Stones left to spend and need to only keep 2 spare to buff Seamus Cache to a decent 4)

So as you can see in both instances my thinking of crew choices always hits the brick wall of Seamus meager SS cache of 2 and perhaps that Molly is ever-so-slightly overcosted.

Looking at it, Molly seems to be doing exactly what I want ... buffing Seamus, because with the crew that features her there is no way victory is happening without Seamus alive and kicking, on the other hand, what is Madame Sybelle actually doing?

She is a middle of the road offensive model, that can potentially allow a few alpha strike type moves ... but with Belles, not the Ortega's!!!

I'm really tempted at 25ss to run with Seamus, Avatar, Molly, x2 Belles and maybe one other model or just the full cache of 8. But is that too small a crew or is it severly limited in some way that makes running it a bit useless?

Because honestly (and maybe this is lack of sleep talking) but it seems it would be much better if Sybelle is the better option to just drop her entirely and pay around 3-4 extra SS for a model like Dead Rider or Izamu and go full beatstick with them, while Seamus skulks around in the background looking for weaknesses and isolated or wounded models.

I hope this post makes sense, What do you guys think?

It really does depend on the strategy you have flipped.

Firstly Avatar Seamus in some cases (admittedly not many) can be dropped.

Both your lists will be viable depending on what Schemes you pick and thats without considering the variables of opponents crew (if its Hoffman forget taking Molly) and terrain.

[Gruesome]

Yeah, but the only problem with your thinking is that ... why take Seamus?

I would not really call it a problem as much as an acceptance of the way things are.

When you boil it down to "why take Seamus?" the answer for me is the same as it has ever been... Because I like playing him sometimes.

If you mean that question to be "what competitive reason is there to take Seamus instead of one of the other Rezzer masters?"

Well... IMO, there is not one. For what *I* get out of Seamus playing him and watching/reading others play him, I feel that I have a better chance with other masters in the faction for any current strategy.

"how do we make Seamus work?"

That's a different question. The first part of my answer, if people accept that Seamus is at a disadvantage out of the gate, is that its probably NOT a good idea to hamper him further with models that are not cost effective like Molly unless you KNOW you will face a crew that she excels against.

I'd also ask who you need him to work against?

Most of my games are relaxed games at home or at the store where I am often the more experienced player, so I generally do ok with him.

Do you mean how does Seamus work in a large tournament like Adepticon or Gencon?

Well... I can only say that I do not know. (I can also definitively say that I do not know how to get very far with Nicodem at Adepticon in the masters)

In looking at results, it seems that no one else knew how to either.

So, be the FIRST!

My contribution? Not Molly.

(Unless she is kick butt with the new strats... Which is not out of the question, I hope)

Edited January 21, 2013 by Gruesome

[Fetid Strumpet]

+1 to Gruesome. Molly and Seamus are my favorite Characters in the game, and I really wish I enjoyed playing one or both. I'll admit aSeamus has his moments is is a blast to play, but right out of the gate his basic master form is pretty weak due to a variety of factors but one of his biggest hindrances is a lack of initial SS.

There are a few reasons you might decide to take Seamus out of the box over another master, but if you are looking to optimize you chances of winning a game then there isn't a single reason to take Seamus over a different resser master, he really, IMO ranks at the bottom of the ressers, and his base master form is one of the weaker in the game. Compound that, as Gruesome said, with cost inefficient models like Molly and Sybelle and it just adds to the problem.

Now this is the opinion of a player who likes to play competitively. If your meta doesn't include folks like me, or is mainly full of people who are just learning then the differences in power curve become less apparent. I've successfully used Seamus + Molly lists against newer players with very strong crews and done well. They can be alot of fun, but against competitive players using the best list they can bring Seamus and Molly tend to find themselves behind the Curve very fast.

If you are insistent on taking Molly or Sybelle I would take Molly. The list past that becomes a matter of choice, but I would ALWAYS bring a Grave Spirit attached to Molly.

[Mehter]

Avatar Seamus is good in Treasure Hunt.

Regular Seamus has always been my go-to Master for playing against Pandora. Throw Sue and a couple Crooligans in there and Pandora is sitting at 4 WP while Seamus is at 9. Then Undead Psychosis all you want. You can lock her out of activating if you know what you're doing. I've always had good results in that matchup, but I never take Sybelle or Molly.

[D-A-C]

In terms of how competitive my gaming group is, its very mixed. All of us picked up Malifaux about 3 months ago and obviously depending on personality some are more inclined to try and find 'auto-win' or 'power build' type lists more than others.

What I'm trying to get at is how to be as competitive as possible with Seamus, in other words, I understand that in competitive situations I would probably be better off with any of the other three Resser Masters, but I'm just trying to find a combination of Seamus crew models that is as strong as possible whilst still playing like a Seamus crew.

For example, like I keep saying (sorry to harp on about it), I don't like the thought of taking either Dead Rider or Izamu because neither particularly contributes to the Seamus crew, instead they are just tough models that attempt to paper over some of the cracks that inevitably appear in Seamus' game. They do this by simply being power houses and that's it. They aren't Seamus models, they are just strong models.

Whereas a model like the Hanged for example adds to what Seamus crews already do by attacking WP and being incredibly tough or a Crooked Man synergies well with Belles lure abilities or an Onryo helps a little with crews that are immune to WP duels whilst adding a bit of offense (Seamus loves the ladies as well).

So what I'm trying to do is get a full pool of Seamus Crew Models to draw on that fit well with one another and play in the ways that help and synergies with one another. Then once that pool of models has been established, decide which combinations are best at each of the schemes and strategies so that I can enjoy playing Seamus and still play somewhat competively.

If I included models, that whilst powerful, don't fit in with Seamus' playstyle in someway or tie in with him thematically, then I would feel like I wasn't playing Seamus and would just wonder why I don't use Nicodem or McMourning etc.

Does that kind of make sense lol?

So what my original question was about is: In what situations was Molly more useful than Sybelle in a Seamus crew and should Molly ever be considered at lower SS games over Sybelle because of her abilities (and because she can eventually summon Sybelle given the right circumstances anyway).

Anyway, a list I was toying with this week and might try out soon is:

Seamus - 5SS Cache

Avatar of Dread

Molly Squidpiddge w/ Grave Spirit

x1 Rotten Belle

x3 Canine Remains

My thinking behind this list is that if I come up against a living crew Molly can give the Canine's Necrotic Spray and her and Seamus can follow behind (in the hope that) when they inevitably die, they will take something with them and leave 3 or 4 corpse counters ready for Molly to summon Madame Sybelle and Seamus to get another Belle and then proceed from there.

The one Rotten Belle in this list would be kept behind Seamus but within range of Womanizer so that should he (or Molly I suppose) get stuck in melee they can be quickly pulled back to relative safety.

Its just a base template, but is something I was considering trying with Molly in the crew.

[Fetid Strumpet]

The thing is though there aren't any actual Seamus Models. Aside from giving Belles a little extra movement he doesn't really have massive synergies with anything the ressers have.

Thematically you are limited to Belles if you are looking for fluff oriented models to go with Seamus. That's it. In the fluff the only undead of any type that is definitively known to have been animated by Seamus that wasn't a Belle was Philip's head. So by your own argument you shouldn't be including Canine Remains either, as thematically they don't work with Seamus. Even in the fluff they are explicitly stated as having been animated by McMornings experiments. Also the Rabies debuff is nice, but I find you rarely ever get it off. The dogs die so fast that you aren't looking to get many attacks off before the whole pack goes down, even with their Df Debuff, and you need a hit with a crow to trigger it. On the plus side if you are counting on them dying then they do provide you with the Resources to bring sybelle out, if you get the crow you need.

If you are trying to therefore only stick with Females you could do something like:

Ressurectionists Crew - 35 - Scrap

Seamus, The Mad-Hatter

--

5 Pool

+ Seamus, Avatar of Dread

[2ss]

Molly Squidpiddge

[9ss]

Grave Spirit [1ss]

• Convict Gunslinger
  [6ss]
  
  
• Desperate Mercenary
  [2ss]
  
  
• Rotten Belles
  [4ss]
  
  
• Rotten Belles
  [4ss]
  
  
• The Drowned
  [4ss]
  
  

Of course that means you'd have to get Miss Demeanor so the convict could be Female.

If you are looking for models that synergize well with Seamus then the Dead Rider and Izamu then pop back into the List as they both work well with just about anyone. The dead rider having some of the movement manipulating shenanigans that Seamus requires to stay alive. Izamu being a Bodyguard for Seamus and something to make models not want to get close to stop the avatar from coming out.

Trust me I get where you are coming from as I felt the same way for a long time. The best generic lists I could come up with for Seamus and Molly was something like this at 35 SS.

Ressurectionists Crew - 35 - Scrap

Seamus, The Mad-Hatter

--

7 Pool

+ Seamus, Avatar of Dread

[2ss]

Molly Squidpiddge

[9ss]

Grave Spirit [1ss]

• Dead Rider
  [10ss]
  
  
• Desperate Mercenary
  [2ss]
  
  
• Desperate Mercenary
  [2ss]
  
  
• Rotten Belles
  [4ss]
  
  

I guess then at the end of the day as you have your own opinion as to what constitutes "a Seamus Model" it would perhaps be more productive to ask you to provide a pool of models you personally consider "Seamus Models" and the community could then help you make the most competitive list from those choices.

Does any of that help?

[Gruesome]

I feel like Fetid nailed it.

To OP, I sort of get what you want. Its funny to me actually what you are trying to say about wanting "Seamus Models"...

There was a thread a while back about what Seamus gained from the 10T book and I got kinda wrecked for suggesting that I did not feel that he gained anything as much as the other masters. My feeling was that while he would benefit from a number of things in the book, that the others masters seemed to be getting even MORE from it.

(I could have stated what I meant more clearly, in hindsight...)

I cannot speak to Izamu with Seamus.

I can say that whether you think Dead Rider is "right" for Seamus or not, he works really well with him.

He is a great emergency taxi.

He is great for bringing Seamus "lunch".

He is a fast distraction that cannot be ignored, allowing Seamus to continue to work from the shadows.

With a Grave Spirit Attached, he is VERY durable.

I understand that he is not a belle and that its not fluff, but I find that the two of them are great together.

With Regen and Adjust Purpose, the DR can "heal" 3 wounds a turn, so in a pinch, Seamus can "Live for Pain" off of him when necessary to get wounds back.

When He is Purpose: Engage, he is Terrifying 13, and with Seamus' Trail of Fear, that starts getting difficult to deal with since he has a push movement effect you can do the same thing as the Yin-YoYo, which is to push out of terrifying range from models that passed terrifying and back into terrifying range to make them have to recheck. (Or just leave the combat and bring one of the enemies with you...)

So... for Dead Rider, I'd say that while he does a lot of things for all the masters that its not a good reason to not have him with Seamus.

[rancor709]

If your trying to make seamus shine the game is built against it althought Seamus's biggest gain in book 4 was that most models are living and not immune to influence, so that is bonus right there. His avatar is light years beyond his base form, but to get the most out of it and to allow him to live to become the hulk, he needs a Beat stick to complement. Try as she might sybelle is only 6ss and functions on the lower end of 6ss models. You need onlly look at the design of 6ss models in book 4 to realize how aged sybelle looks at her pts cost. If your going to take a beat stick the two best available are Dead Rider and Izamu as has been stated.

Getting something out of molly is never easy and even less so with the low soulstone count that Seamus has. I've found the neatest trick molly has is super charging the walk stat of my beater models to make them even more annoying and buying precious time. If you facing a living crew she goes up in reliable utility in forcing card cycling with her reveal phillip but her shoddy movement doesn't help. Again an extra true ap nimble or casting expert would help her cost immensely. aSeamus has possibilty but again you have to protect regular seamus so he can manifest unmolested. Seamus is not a front line beater, that's McMourning Job, and he's not a true support disrupter, That's Nicodem. A thematic Seamus force can be okay in a thematic environment but that boat won't float competitively. Molly can be a hard rock to take down that is perhaps her greatest ability and she is an excellent bodyguard target. She'll earn those two vps for you and thats about it unless you get some specific cards at the right time.

[Fetid Strumpet]

The issue with taking Bodyguard on Molly, which I do regularly, is that you pull her teeth when you do so.

If you don't put Bodyguard on her she is annoying to remove from the game, and if you want to try you have to use mid to cheap minions to do it, a model with I2I, or a master as she can pose a threat to expensive minions with Philosophy of Uncertainty.

If you put Bodyguard on her you completely remove the threat of Philosophy of Uncertainty, or at least from her as she could conceivably still cast it with her totem.

I really wish she had Nimble or casting Expert, as has been said in the past. Although with the new Age of Izamu and the continuing Epoch of the Rider, I'm still not certain she'd be good enough to displace them in a list. She'd definitely be more worth her cost though.

[D-A-C]

I guess then at the end of the day as you have your own opinion as to what constitutes "a Seamus Model" it would perhaps be more productive to ask you to provide a pool of models you personally consider "Seamus Models" and the community could then help you make the most competitive list from those choices.

Does any of that help?

First off, yes, these responses I have recieved in this thread have helped immensly since I started it a few days ago.

Secondly, let me just say thank you all for taking the time to respond.

Anyway, the more I look at it, Molly at 25ss just doesn't work outside of the friendliest of games because of how small Seamus cache is to share between the two of them.

So, let's stick to a 35ss limit then (which is tournament size here in my gaming group) and what I should be realisticly aiming for when building 'competitive' Seamus list. So what models are Seamus Models?, Well its not entirely up to me in the sense that I am open to suggestions but my thoughts focus on two things:

1. What are the thematic models

2. What are the models can co-exist with either Seamus or his core models to make a better crew e.g How Crooked Men or the Convict Gunslinger can both make use of Belles lure (and thus synergise with core crew models) and provide something missing, in this case damage output and ranged support.

So I think 'Seamus Crew Models' are:

Core Crew/Fluffy/Thematic/Most Synergy

Seamus

Avatar of Dread

Copy Cat Killer

Molly Squidpiddge

Necrotic Machine

Madame Sybelle

Rotten Belles

Dead Doxies

Secondary Models That Synergise With The 'Core' Crew/Master

Grave Spirit - Preferred totem, syncs well with Molly/Sybelle/Hanged, isn't Seamus trying to find the Grave Spirit in the fluff?

Crooked Men - Can make use of Rotten Belles Lure, provide ranged support and are tough for 4ss

Onryo - Female, Geisha so type of hooker, removes immunity to WP duels with Mark of the Jigoku, some offense for only 5ss and tough thanks to spirit

Hanged - Never used, but supposedly they effect WP like Seamus, are tough as nails, and deadly thanks to reducing models to half wounds and no healing flips, they synergize well with Seamus crews WP manipulation tricks

Convict Gunslinger - Provides solid damage output for cost and can take advantage of Belles lure to get maximum damage on offense, also a female version available but rare.

Bete Noir - Female ... that's only excuse for theme lol, but she is a nice source of damage output, and Seamus likes his ladies

Canine Remains - They are generically useful for all Ressers, Seamus knows McMourning so could get them from him, they are more sensible 2ss Corpse Counters than desperate mercs thematically, and for some reason I always imagine Seamus using dogs like this (Joker = Seamus ... at youtube 'The Dark Knight: The Final Fight Batman and Joker')

Those would be my first thoughts for Seamus Models either in terms of theme or playstyle, but I could be wrong.

On the other hand I also own most of these models so its a nice sampling of whats available for me to build my crew with anyway.

What do you guys think, am I missing something or talking through an orifice other than my mouth etc?

Competitive List

Seamus - 4ss Cache

Avatar of Dread

Molly Squidpiddge

x2 Rotten Belles

x2 Canine Remains

Bete Noir

The Cache is frickin low again, but two dogs go forward with Molly behind debuffing enemy targets with Terrible Secret, giving Necrotic Blood to dogs and waiting till they die to exchange them for Sybelle, plus in this list they are a delivery system for Bete Noir as well.

Seamus, stays near edge of action, picks a shot or two and aims for turn 3/4 manifest.

Edited January 24, 2013 by D-A-C

[Fetid Strumpet]

Drop Molly, add 2 drowned or 2 Crooked Men, substitute the Canine Remains for 2 Desperate Mercs.