How to make our Minions more competitive/balanced?

[Kriltic]

Well since I started a thread for the Masters I thought I may as well see what people think of our minions/totems/henchmen etc. It's the same principle as before, what changes would you make to balance out the masses? I.e. to make the rarer models become a little more popular and the clearly amazing models pay that little bit more so they don't overshadow the rest of the gang, or to balance them all somewhat haha

Just to point out before someone comes out with it yet again, no I'm not trolling, no I'm not saying Resurrectionist minions are terrible and no I'm not saying Resurrectionist's aren't competitive so please go away if thats all you have to say.

Yes this is a semi serious thread as in I'd like the suggestions to be sensible(ish) in the sense that they are plausible, despite this been a wishlist like topic. But it is also meant as a bit of fun to see what people think of our minions! So lets make it that.

So, without further a do, what changes would you like to see?

---------- Post added at 05:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:51 PM ----------

I don't have a massive amount of experience with all the minions so I can't comment on everything and one or two suggestions might not be perfect so feel free to post your own suggestions or point out changes you would make to my list. If you wish to know why I've put something just ask and I'll try to explain.

Totems

Grave Spirit, increase to 2SS

Lost Love, increase to 3SS

Copycat Killer, reduce to 1SSIncrease Cb for .50 Flintlock to 4, remove mask from Mistaken Identity add 'Upon switching models make one .50 Flintlock strike with the Gunfighter rule., ignore 'suffers 1 wound and' under .50 Flintlock.

Vulture, reduce to 1SS, Eyes and Ears only reduces CA by 2, add Too small: This model drops no corpse counter upon dying.

Minions

Flesh Construct, reduce by 1 SS

Mortimer, reduce by 1SS

Rafkin, reduce by 1 SS

Nurse, reduce by 1 SS

Dead Doxy, reduce by 1 SS

Rogue Necromancy, reduce by 2 SS

Rotten Belle, increase by 1 SS, add 'Always together: Increase SS starting pool by 1 when this model and another model with the 'Belle' characteristic are purchased in the same crew. This second model may not use Always together to increase the pool further.

Punk Zombie, increase WD to 8

The Hanged, add (+1) Nimble

The Drowned, Madame Sybelle and Jaakuna entries removed.

Edited November 25, 2012 by Kriltic

[Pierowmaniac]

Crooligans?

I also don't quite get the increase in SS you suggest for some models. Fair enough they are good value (hence they see a lot of table time) but I don't see any of them as being under costed. If anything maybe the dead rider is the only model I would consider as being under costed.

[Kriltic]

Crooligans are not something Im familiar with so I don't know how well they do on the table. As a result I didn't want to add/remove anything. The same is true of the Dead Rider.

If you consider something a really good value for their points (and so usually you field them a lot) then it usually means one of two things, 1) they are under priced and so there's no reason not to take them or 2) The alternatives are not as well costed or do not perform the task as well. Would you still consider the models with suggested cost increases still great value or just okay? Would you still take auto take them or would you be more inclined to look at the other possibilities now?

If you think they are just okay and that you would look at other things that you wouldn't normally take then clearly my point is working. (Also I forgot about the Rogue Necromancy and Jaakuna so I've now added them.)

---------- Post added at 07:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:27 PM ----------

Just to explain my thoughts on some of the costs etc.

Totems

Grave Spirit -- Clearly at 1SS hes a no brainer for most people/masters and is amazing value. At 2 SS I dont feel that hes too expensive but I think its a fairer cost and it gives some of the other Totems a chance to be used instead.

Lost Love -- Another amazing choice and why wouldn't you take him for Kirai?! At 3SS hes a little fairer and helps reduce her SS pool thus helping to create a little more balance with her and her crew.

Copycat Killer -- Reducing his cost would perhaps give him a chance to appear in a list, especially as a 1 SS .50 Flintock

Vulture -- Dropping cost helps them compete with the Grave Spirit to an extent, reducing the CA modifier helps let Nicodem attempt to actually use them for the purpose they were supposed to be used for and not dropping corpses stops people buying 2 to simply get 2 dirt cheap corpses (excuse the pun!)

Minions

Flesh Construct -- Reducing the cost hopefully may see one occasionally appearing in crew rather than just as something to summon.

Mortimer + Rafkin -- Most people feel these are very situational models due to cost, reducing the cost may see people take them in more lists due to a higher cost/reliabilty ratio.

Nurse -- I've only seen people mention Nurses to speed up the Manifesting requirements.

Dead Doxy -- Simple case of many players feel they are a little over costed.

Rogue Necromancy -- I think only Molly really hires these because she has few other options, most people feel its too expensive considering how fragile it is. Making it simply harder to hit or increasing its wounds would only reward those that summon it even more, reducing its cost rewards those that take it to begin with.

Rotten Belle -- I think almost every Resser crew (bar Kirai's) love this model, everyone can see she is amazingly valuable and cheap. However I think 5 might be punishing Seamus a bit too much as he loves using Belles whereas other masters like 1 or 2. Thus I thought giving them a Guild Hound like rule might help to some extent so they dont end up too far the other way and not see much use.

Punk Zombie -- People wanted a little more survivability and although 2 wounds isn't much, it certainly helps I think.

Edited November 25, 2012 by Kriltic

[Rathnard]

I think the trick with rebalancing models is not to try and tweak them all according to percieved value, but to tweak just a few who are particularly under or over-powered. The former approach is just too subjective - you'll rarely get a consensus over if or how some models should be tweaked, and making so many changes is a huge risk - minor changes will either have a minimal effect on the meta or inadvertantly introduce new balancing issues that leave the game in a worse state than where you started.

In other words, forget about the minor imbalances - just go for the biggest ones.

While Ressers are the Faction I'm currently least familiar with (although that's not saying much), the models I would first want to look at tweaking would be;

Lost Love

Grave Spirit

Crooligan

Dead Doxy

Guild Autopsy

The first is way too much of a no-brainer and perhaps a little too easy to implement (maybe add a range to it's Kirai-saving talent?). The Grave Spirit is not massively overpowered per se, but at the very least I think it needs toning down to allow players to consider taking other totems.

The last three are just difficult models to justify using when compared to other models that can do the same or a similar job.

Edited November 25, 2012 by Rathnard

[Gruesome]

I do not really understand the point of INCREASING the points for some of our models. It feels like you want to use their utility within the faction as a balancing against other things within the faction and therefore INCREASE their cost to see other things get played.

I think all that does is DECREASE our ability to compete with other factions.

If we do not want Grave spirit ALWAYS being taken, then maybe vultures should be worth something. Making them NOT drop corpses is certainly not my view of how to do that.

The Grave spirit is certainly good... But... It drops no corpse and a SINGLE BLAST from just about ANY spell that has a blast will kill it.

I would also not touch the Rotten Belle, our shining beacon of value for the cost. The day they cost more is the day that the guild should have ALL of its 4SS cost models increased as they are ALL fantastic values.

Increase Madam Sybelle? I do not understand that either. What is she doing for you that you think that our only 6 point melee model should disappear?

Out of your list, I like:

Mortimer, reduce by 1SS (Becoming less relevent every release)

Rafkin, reduce by 1 SS (Just dies too easy and needs to be in perfect place to be worth points)

Nurse, reduce by 1 SS (Something needs to happen to make them get on the table)

Dead Doxie, reduce by 1 SS (Its neatest ability takes half of another of your model's wounds)

Vulture, reduce to 1SS (Or better yet, leave at 2, but make something on it better)

Copycat Killer, in particular, I would like to see an outright model change rather than trying to mess with cost.

I do not agree with reducing Hanged cost. They are simply specialized and against the crews that they are good against, they are REALLY good, against others, they are not a good option at all. So adjusting their cost does not make them a better option, IMO, for things they are not good at, but does start unbalancing them against lists that they were already good against.

I do not agree with reducing Rogue Necromancy by 3 SS (Maybe 2? But probably 1). While I am not a big fan of RN, 7 points for that model that drops THREE corpse counters is too cheap. He'd be in every Nicodem list I run, bolstered and with a Grace Spirit on him.

HOWEVER... What I could see being kind of cool is if he had something like "Special Affinity(Molly)" where she could hire him for a reduced cost.

I also agree that Crooligans need some attention.

Whether its cost adjustment or someone posting an honest to goodness battle report that illustrates them doing things useful in a way that I have not thought of, seen in person, or read about in the forums.

These are all just opinions... I been wrong plenty 'o times...

Edited November 25, 2012 by Gruesome

[Odin1981]

Why are you complaining about your minion choices? The only faction (guild) outside of yours that has anywhere near the # of great 4-5 point cost minions. You have 4 great choices of minions at that cost. They are punk zombies, onryo, belles, and crooked men. Granted you might not have too great 7-9 point models currently outside of maybe the hanged (till yan lo snake thingie and toshiro hit the shelf) but you have the best rider options for kill joy, von schill, and jack daw out of faction for high point baddies. Plus you have great objective grabbers in night terrors/crooligans as well as the best summoned model in the game (rogue necro/flesh construct).

Can you honestly tell me you never use any of the above or don't use any of the above mentioned correctly in context with the strategy and schemes of your given game? Or do you personally believe in not mix and matching of minions between fluff crews? Cause the sheer amount of playable cheap models your faction has access too is arguably the best selection in the game. Here is the main thing as well the majority of the 6+ minions you mentioned share a common trait that almost all models in their cost category (threw every faction) share in that outside of building your list to maximize the synergy of models you are taking in a list you will feel those models aren't carrying their weight. Not every 7 point model can be one of the twins. And this game is wholeheartedly a great deal better for that.

[Kriltic]

I forgot about the Guild Autopsy otherwise I would have added it. I always think small changes are needed rather than big ones as the large changes are much more prone to mistakes in my opinion. But this thread is all about what everyone thinks!

I dont think those reasons justify keeping the Grave Spirit at 1SS, not every crew loads up on blasts and if you expect them to then suddenly you have to make a slightly more tactical decision which is always a good thing. The Vultures not dropping corpses is to stop people taking 2 as a cheap way to field 2 corpses, if people buy dogs for the same purpose why not buy even cheaper vultures? As for the Copycat I was merely going with as few changes per model as possible so dropping to 1SS seemed like the best option.

Im not trying to increase costs of models to simply see others be used more but to have them balance more against the less used ones, i.e stop the weaker ones from not been used rather than simply dropping the costs of them all. The Belle for example is as everyone says amazing value for 4SS, but is 5SS the point which you think she is terrible value or would you still field them? Having 2 Belles at what amounts to -1SS to their combined cost helps keep them reasonable without being an auto-include. As for the Rogue Necromancy, if you field it at 7SS with the Grave Spirit at 2SS, you save 2SS over the current cost which seems fair. The RN on its own for 7SS doesn't seem an auto include or over powered but perhaps others see it differently. As for the Hanged I may be wrong, and if I am then I apologise, perhaps they are worth the 8SS, as I said these were just my opinions.

I don't use any of the models you have in bold unless I can summon them, although once I get my crews sorted Rotten Belles will be seen in all but my Kirai crew since I think for 4SS they are a steal. The ones you pointed out are hard to justify (some more than others and with the obvious exception) over alternative choices. And all but my McMourning crew will make the strong but fluffy lists (as best I can), the only reason McMourning doesn't is I'm unsure what to take with him currently.

And yes, the Guild have far too many good cheap minions, but why should everyone have the amazing cheap 4SS that should be more? Id rather everyone have minions who are priced fairly but I realise its hard to justify a Belle at 5SS without people assuming the other factions would have the same kind of changes as well. And no I dont think everyone should have 7SS models like the Twins, that's not what this post is about, if every faction was to have things changed then I imagine the Neverborn list would be a little bit longer than most.

---------- Post added at 09:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:15 PM ----------

Just to point out. The Rotten Belle change wouldn't be that big, assuming you field 2 you would pay 9SS instead of 8 which doesn't seem unreasonable does it? Plus most Molly and Seamus crews wouldn't see much change. (thanks to the 'Always together bit I would add). The normal brackets is current cost and the square bracket is modified cost.

Seamus (8 pool) [8 pool]

Grave Spirit (1) [2]

Madame Sybelle (6) [7]

3 Rotten Belles (12) [15]

2 Dead Doxies (10) [8]

---------- Post added at 09:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:28 PM ----------

Also Ill either edit the original list (and note which items have been added/removed) or create a new list depending on other peoples suggestions, i.e. either drop some changes or add some.

Edited November 25, 2012 by Kriltic

[Gruesome]

Seamus' pool is hit enough in its size, so yes, I would consider increasing the costs of of his most common model, rotten belles, to be breaking things.

You'd effectively be decreasing his SS cache to ZERO...

Its odd to me to be concerned about people taking the Vultures at 1, even if only for corpse counters (See: Zombie Chihuaha, cost: 1) as a problem. Although its also removing the ability to take the Grave Spirit...

I can see you are a fan of increasing the costs of some models, so I will leave you to it...

Cheers!

Edited November 25, 2012 by Gruesome

[Kriltic]

Yes but as I've just shown, the exact same list is unaffected by the change due to the +1 SS pool it grants when taken in pairs. If you dropped the Dead Doxies in either case you would still have 10SS to spend on other things, assuming you wanted a full pool.

A Zombie Chihuahua is only available to McMourning and he simply carves it up anyway, so he has a choice of a few cheap body parts of the Grave Spirit attached to something. If you had Nicodem and could take 2 1SS models and turn that into a Flesh Construct or some other big nasty then most people would. Even without corpses I would think having Nicodem attempt a casting of Rigor Mortis from halfway across the board, or at almost any point on the board is worth considering not using the Grave Spirit, even if its only cast with Ca5.

Edited November 25, 2012 by Kriltic

[Rathnard]

I always think small changes are needed rather than big ones as the large changes are much more prone to mistakes in my opinion.

Small changes may be less porone to mistakes, but what you're proposing is LOTS of small changes, several of which people can't even agree on whether they're needed. And that, in my opinion, is far more prone to mistakes than making just a handful of larger changes.

To be honest, I think you're approaching this the wrong way. While it's important to ask "will this change unbalance the game?", you should first be asking yourself "Does changing this model significantly improve game balance?".

Take the Rotten Belle. It's a commonly taken minion and an excellent choice for almost any Resser crew. But nobody complains about it - there are no threads talking about how Rotten Belles are some kind of overpowered win button and I've yet to hear someone talking about how they lost because their opponent just spammed Rotten Belles for the win. Even if people do agree that the Rotten Belle is slightly undercosted, nobody actually seems to care and the Rotten Belle's power level isn't having a negative effect on peoples game experiences.

So why bother changing a model that is not actually negatively affecting the game?

Instead, the better approach is to focus on the models that people do complain about - the Crooligans, the Guild Autopsies and so forth. The changes required may be larger than what you'd do with a Rotten Belle, but by focussing on just a few models instead of most of the range, you're far more likely to pick up on any issues and rectify them.

[Fetid Strumpet]

The thing that makes a model good or not is how effective it is at actually achieving conditions that let you win the game. Your list above doesn't seem to take that into account and instead seems to try to play with numbers based on arbitrary perceptions.

A case in point is your argument for increasing Sybelle's cost. Please don't take offense at this, but I feel you are flat out wrong for even suggesting a price increase. She is hardly ever used now at her current cost, because she doesn't do anything remotely consistently of any use for winning a game. The best things she has going for her is her ability to companion Rotten Belles and her ability to call a Belle, neither of which is game winning. The companion ability lacks because in a Belle centric list you have no threat outside Seamus, and Seamus isn't effective enough to take enough advantage to make including Sybelle worthwhile, and additionally you can only companion Rotten Belles, which means Molly and Dead Doxies have no synergy with her at all. Call Belle is a strong ability, but the reliance on a mid to high value suited card means that ability is inconsistent, and inconsistent models are not competitive.

You mention her dmg output as being statistically high but I don't see what your basis for that is. She suffers from having a weak and moderate dmg of the same low number, and most tellingly, she doesn't have an extra action, so she is slow, and doesn't put out much dmg.

To your points on our totems, changing point costs I don't feel are going to change the totem line up at all. For example even if you made the Copy Cat Killer 1 SS I would still never take it, because as it currently exists it doesn't contribute in anyway to achieving victory. It is an excessively fragile, living, combat model, with a terrible Cb score, no ability to easily augment that Cb score, and low wounds, who takes dmg from doing what you brought it to do, IE shoot people. It doesn't matter that it is the .50 cal flintlock x2 for Seamus because in order to even have a chance to hit anything with an average Df, you are going to have to burn a high value card, which let's face it, would more than likely been of better use being spent on a more effective model, and you'll actually have to get into position to fire, which since the Copy Cat is slow, and doesn't have an extra move action, means that the opponent is going to kill your model, often before you get a chance to move him effectively.

If your intent is to make Resser totems better and attempt to make totem selection a choice rather than the default Grave Spirit, you need to make the Totems actually augment how it's intended master plays the game, as the totems since Book 2 have done. Kirai hardly ever doesn't take the lost love because he fits the mechanics of how she plays the game. It wouldn't make sense to take the Grave spirit since the Grave Spirit doesn't augment Kirai as much as the Lost Love. The same goes for the upcoming Yan Lo Totem, the Soul Porter, who again augments Yan Lo's playstyle, so that even though you can take the incredible 1 SS Grave Spirit, you often aren't going to because the synergy between master and intended totem is just too good to pass up.

Most of the book 1 Totems suffered from not augmenting their master, which is why the majority of the totems from book 1 that are used are the generic ones, Grave Spirit, Essence of Power, Primordial Magic, Student of Conflict. A rare exception that proves this point is the Voodoo Doll, which actively augments how Zoraida plays the game, which is why you will very rarely see the Primordial magic in a Zoraida crew that doesn't have Collodi.

Then on to the Resser minions in the 7-9 stone range, my opinion is again not that they aren't worth their cost or that they are too expensive, it's that at that range you really need to have another action, or have actions that are so good they are like an extra action. For example, even if you dropped the Hanged to 7 stones I still wouldn't take them very often, because neat as their abilities are they don't have the extra action to make use of them. Give them Nimble or casting expert and suddenly they'd be worth their stuff. With how fast the game turned after book 2 models they cannot keep up with the likes of Lilitu, Lelu, the Stitched Together, Kaeris, Collodi, the Rail Golem, and so on just aren't going to be taken.

Edited November 25, 2012 by Fetid Strumpet

[Seb3110]

---------- Post added at 09:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:15 PM ----------

Just to point out. The Rotten Belle change wouldn't be that big, assuming you field 2 you would pay 9SS instead of 8 which doesn't seem unreasonable does it? Plus most Molly and Seamus crews wouldn't see much change. (thanks to the 'Always together bit I would add). The normal brackets is current cost and the square bracket is modified cost.

Seamus (8 pool) [8 pool]

Grave Spirit (1) [2]

Madame Sybelle (6) [7]

3 Rotten Belles (12) [15]

2 Dead Doxies (10) [8]

when i look at your calculations here i get the following:

1+6+12+10=29 (8 pool)

2+7+15+8=32 [5 pool]

So that actually costs the same Seamus crew 3ss in cache with the changes.

Personally, i dont think the problem beeing that some models (grave spirit/belles) are doing "too well", but rather some models not beeing able to perform on par, in their given role.

And when it comes to Sybelle, then i have not really had any problem with her beeing overpowered, have played with and against her, and cant really say i have seen any problem from either side.

Can agree that the internal balance between, lets say, Copycat Killer vs. Grave spirit, isnt very good. But dont think its a price fix that is needed.

Seb

[Kriltic]

Dont forget I added a rule which meant for each Rotten Belle you take, it increases the pool by 1 SS if you take another model with the Belle characteristic. So the 3 Rotten Belles each increase the pool by one as that list had 3 other Belles in it (2 Dead Doxies and Madam Sybelle).

I never claimed to be perfect and get it right in the first go, thus why I've asked others (and changed bits when I can).

---------- Post added at 11:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:04 PM ----------

How about the new list? Its slightly different than the one on the first page, does this help give some synergy between Seamus and Copycat?

Totems

Grave Spirit, increase to 2SS

Lost Love, increase to 3SS

Copycat Killer, reduce to 1SS, increase Cb for .50 Flintlock to 4, remove mask from Mistaken Identity and reduce CC to 10 and add 'Upon switching models make one .50 Flintlock strike with the Gunfighter rule. ignore 'suffers 1 wound and' under .50 Flintlock.

Vulture, Eyes and Ears only reduces CA by 2 and add 'When Nicodem uses Arise or Bolster Undead, this model will immediatly also use the same action (for free) but with half the normal range.

Minions

Flesh Construct, reduce by 1 SS, add Regeneration 1

Mortimer, reduce by 1SS

Rafkin, reduce by 1 SS

Nurse, reduce by 1 SS, add 'All better now' Rng6" CC12 Rst- Remove all Counters and effects currently on target. This can not be used on the same model under the effects of 'Massive Dose'.

Dead Doxy, reduce by 1 SS, change 'halves wounds' to 'inflicts 2 wounds'

Rogue Necromancy, reduce by 2 SS

Rotten Belle, increase by 1 SS, add 'Always together: Increase SS starting pool by 1 when this model and another model with the 'Belle' characteristic are purchased in the same crew. This second model may not use Always together to increase the pool further.

Punk Zombie, increase WD to 8

The Hanged, add (+1) Nimble

Guild Autopsies, increase Cb by 1, increase WD by 2, remove rule which prevents them dropping a corpse counter

Again as I dont really know about the Dead Rider or Crooligans I cant do much with them

Edited November 26, 2012 by Kriltic

[Gruesome]

I like Rathnard's notion that its the models that are at the bottom of everyone's list that warrant attention.

For me, that's

1. Crooligans (I want them to be better for me, but have failed to this point for their cost/use)

2. Guild Autopsies (I think it says something for me that its the only rezzer minion I do not own and I actually forgot it existed until mentioned in this thread)

3. Copycat Killer (Love my Seamus and love the CCK concept...)

4. Vultures (I'd like to see them stay at 2SS and continue dropping corpses, but get SOMETHING to help them)

5. Dead Doxy (I would like to see them have hard to kill. If they are gonna be tarpits of any sort, then I think they should be able to take at least 2 hits all the time before swapping out. Alternatively, I would like disappearing act to NOT wound the replacement model)

I never really thought about the Flesh Construct before, which is interesting. I summon them all the time, and I know how EASY they die (As do belles... Df 3 BLOWS). They have a lot of wounds, which keeps them around and their end of turn strike can be money, but they are slow, eat into my hand if I want them to have 2 actions and have no means of self-healing/regenning.

I think at 6 points, I might actually hire them because while they are not nearly as hardy as Sybelle, they can actually hurt something, which has not been my experience with Sybelle. I still like taking sybelle sometimes though, with Grave Spirit attached, as my "tank". Often I also have a 6SS "hole" that needs filling(Hey now!) and she is the ONLY option. A 6 point Flesh construct would actually give an option.

Kudos for bringing them up. Something new to think about.

Edited November 26, 2012 by Gruesome

[Kadeton]

Heh. I think one of the main problems with these threads (aside from my constant arguing, perhaps) is that they're considering things in isolation. As came up in the Masters thread, rebalancing a Master can simply be a matter of changing the abilities of their minions rather than the Master themselves - and the reverse is also definitely true. What really needs to be considered is why some models have more synergy with certain Masters and crews than others, and how the synergies of "bad" models can be improved. (I personally think changing SS costs is the worst way of achieving this.)

For example, the changes you proposed to Belles seem based around the idea that they're a little too strong for their cost, but that Seamus should not be discouraged from taking loads of them, since it fits his fluff. Rather than making the Belles give out +1 SS between two (and making it reliant specifically on Rotten Belles), why not give Seamus +1 SS for each Belle he takes, up to +4 (similar to the Dreamer's ability for Nightmares)? That seems like a nice, fluffy solution but since it's a thread about minions, it's outside of the scope of the discussion.

The lackluster Resser totems are another symptom of this lack of synergy - the simple synergy of +2 Armor from the Grave Spirit (at a bargain-basement price) is simply better than anything the CCK or Vultures can provide, and that will be true even if their costs are reduced because they simply provide no benefit to their crew. Instead, we need to think outside the box a bit.

Here's one suggestion for the Vultures: what if Arise and Bolster Undead automatically emanated from them as well as from Nicodem, and they extended the area of his zombie control? That seems fluffy, thematically cool, and it partially mitigates one of the problems with Nico's crew, the need to bunch up together. They're damn easy to kill, so I don't think it would be terribly unbalanced, but it might make people consider taking them.

I'm not sure about the CCK (I kind of hate both the concept and the actual model). However, the main objection to him seems to be that he basically sucks at everything. Since he's focused around the .50 (which is honestly not that scary a weapon in the scheme of things), why not give him Nimble and the same Cb as Seamus? Being able to move and focus a shot at a half-decent Cb would make him a credible threat (the enemy will still squash him almost instantly, but he might be able to kill something first). He should also benefit from Necrotic Ministrations when Seamus does, just so he doesn't kill himself with his own gun.

Those probably sound unbalanced at first glance, but I think they'd turn out okay with some tweaking. Certainly it would give people a choice other than "Grave Spirit or nothing".

I'll probably post more ideas when I've actually got the books to hand and don't have to go off memory.

[Kriltic]

Point taken about simply altering costs being a little dull so ive try to change that a little. Are these changes a little more like what you were hoping for?

[Pierowmaniac]

I think you need to focus on just a few of the models on your list. I hoesntly don't think any resser model is underpriced, apart from dead rider (and we don't have enough experience with the book 4 stuff yet).

For example totems.

Grave spirit is only used extensively because Copy cat killer and Vultures are not worth taking. By fixing Copy cat killer and Vultures you wouldn't need to do anything to the Grave spirit.

Similar goes for Rotten Belle and Dead Doxy. If you fix the Doxy then the Rotten Belle will certainly see less board time, especially in a Seamus crew. And just to say it again the Rotten Belle isn't broken at 4SS, she's just a very good choice, especially now that the other factions have luring options with the recent book 4 minions.

[Omenbringer]

Copycat Killer, reduce to 1SS, increase Cb for .50 Flintlock to 4, remove mask from Mistaken Identity and reduce CC to 10 and add 'Upon switching models make one .50 Flintlock strike with the Gunfighter rule. ignore 'suffers 1 wound and' under .50 Flintlock.

I would say just increasing the Cb of the Flintlock and removing the suit from Mistaken Identity would make him worth it. The other stuff really ups him above his two SS costs.

[Kadeton]

Point taken about simply altering costs being a little dull so ive try to change that a little. Are these changes a little more like what you were hoping for?

A bit! You're way more conservative in your changes than I would be, though that's probably not a bad thing. I tend to go for sweeping alterations rather than tiny tweaks.

An example of sweeping alt:

Mortimer is a sad, sad minion without much play time. He's a bit of a contrast to some of the other problematic Resser models in that he has obvious potential synergy - the problem is that he just sucks at his job. Others will probably come along and shout about how I've got Mortimer totally wrong and blah blah blah, but to me it seems to come down to these:

1) Mortimer looks like he's supposed to offer Resser Masters (especially Nicodem) an alternative source of Corpse Counters to killing dogs or the enemy. He's quite bad at this, requiring a 7+ to cast and either a flipped or cheated Crow.

2) Most of his abilities are simply garbage. Six Feet Under is incredibly situational, and makes it harder for him to keep up. Make My Own Friends is so bad it makes Molly's summoning abilities look good (although it does have the best name of any ability in the game, in my opinion). Empty Grave makes his melee attacks theoretically quite decent (with the potential for 3-8 damage plus Slow or Paralysed) but you wouldn't spend your high Crows cheating for the A Grave For You trigger.

3) Otherwise, he's actually pretty solid: he's got a good Cb, great Wds, semi-decent defenses and Fresh Meat, which is useful for speeding up the undead horde (but leaves him behind unless you make him Undead with the Necrotic Machine). Being left behind is a real problem for him, since he's also Wk 4 and tends to want to spend his AP on Fresh Meat.

So to make him more playable, I would suggest that he needs a way to keep up with the crew while still participating, a better system for bringing Corpse Counters into play, and some more useful stuff to do. I'll put what I would suggest as his list of talents up here and let people rip it to pieces.

Abilities

Regeneration 1

Trudging Behind: Whenever a friendly Master within 6" moves or is moved, this model may move up to its Wk towards that Master's final position.

Actions

(0) Sniveling Assistant: Target friendly Master within 6" receives +:crows to its Ca.

(0) Zombie Companion: Target friendly Undead model within 6" activates after this model's activation ends.

(1) Funeral Procession: Friendly Nicodem within 6" may move up to 3".

Triggers

Cb(:crows) A Grave For You: When damaging defender with a Shovel Strike, increase Shovel's Dg to 3/4+Slow/6+Paralysed.

Ca(:masks) Zombie Whisperer: Friendly Undead models may move up to their Cg rather than their Wk.

Spells

(0) Make My Own Friends (CC: 9:crows/Rst: -/Rg: C)

Discard 1 Control Card. Summon 1 Mindless Zombie.

(1) "Fresh Meat!" (CC: 12/Rst: -/Rg: 15)

All friendly Undead models in play may immediately move up to their Wk toward the target model. All Mindless Zombies in play immediately move 3" toward the target model. This spell may only be cast once per turn.

Some notes:

It may seem weird that Snivelling Assistant and Make My Own Friends are (0) AP, but it's by far the simplest way to make sure that they can never be used on the same turn, or more than once per turn (or be copied by Molly). They may also seem too powerful to people who think that summoning is unbalancing - this was argued at length in the Master thread, and people are welcome to their opinions.

Trudging Behind seems like a fluffy way to help Mort keep up - it forces him to stay close to his Master, as a support model should. Funeral Procession is there to give him some specific synergy with Nicodem (and help Nico with his own movement problems).

I wanted Fresh Meat to also affect Mindless Zombies, since the mental image of being pointed out by Mort and having the whole shambling horde turn and fix hungry eyes on you was too cool to pass up. I also tweaked it so that it doesn't require the Mask (but rewards you if you have one) - in general, I'm opposed to heavy suit reliance on core abilities. However, to help balance out the buff I made it once per turn.

The above would make Mort into a damn good support piece, giving a significant speed boost to Undead crews (especially Nico's) and a boost to Masters' summoning. He's probably too powerful as I've written him at his current point cost, but I like to go overboard and then tone back rather than be overly cautious. I also think he probably needs another situational (1) action or spell to fill out his options, but nothing thematic sprang to mind.

Anyway, that was a fun exercise.

[CRC]

That's a great example Kadeton. I think you might be correct about the power level, but such things can be worked out.

I've been trying to think of similar ways to re-write the Nurses...

I'd probably give them (0) Link, and change their harmless to

Assistant: this model is harmless while in base to base with a friendly model.

Then they'd work a lot like little aMcMournings (escorting flesh constructs around, and using (0) supports and surgery).

(I'd consider giving them (+1) Nimble instead of (0) Link, same purpose, different mechanic.)

I'd also probably give them Dispel Magic, straight off a witchling. It seems abusive at first glance, but you'd need to have 2 nurses, (one to dose, one to fix) to pull it off. It also takes a decent card, and can't be used to fix herself (if she gave herself reactivate, say) because it's an attack.

Finally, I'd change Life Support into a Syringe trigger, and make all three triggers go off on different suits. I'd probably also add a fourth trigger to do poison.

And after all that, they wouldn't need (or want) furious casting any more so that can go away.

[Kriltic]

See these kinds of changes were what I was looking for! As you pointed out mine are much smaller ones but mostly because I was hoping to avoid rewriting a complete cards stats etc but simply adjust them for minimal fuss/risk factor.

By the way great job and idea Kadeton, I love it! I may try another go with my list and take both yours and CRC's changes to make minor tweaks to things and see what people think. Ill attempt to add the Dead Rider and Cooligans into the list too.

[Kriltic]

Right, rather than rewrite cards I've still kept with the trying to tweak the current things but perhaps this is more what people were looking for.

Totems

Grave Spirit, increase to 2SS

Lost Love, increase to 3SS

Copycat Killer, increase Cb for .50 Flintlock to 4, ignore 'suffers 1 wound and' under .50 Flintlock, remove :masks from Mistaken Identity and reduce CC to 10 then add 'Upon switching models make one .50 Flintlock strike with the Gunfighter rule.

Vulture, Reduce to 1 SS, Eyes and Ears only reduces CA by 2 then add 'When Nicodem uses Arise or Bolster Undead, this model will also immediately use the same action (for free) but with half the normal range of the action.

Minions

Flesh Construct, reduce by 1 SS, add Regeneration 1

Mortimer, reduce by 1SS, Exhume ignore 'Flip a fate card... If the card is a :crows ' add trigger '( :crows )You're a big one [Exhume] Two corpses may be placed instead of one. Change 'Make all my own friends' to a (2), add (0) 'Yes Sir?' Charge directly towards a friendly Nicodem, no stikes are made should this bring Mortimer in melee range of Nicodem. Add to Fresh Meat, this also affects Neutral or friendly Mindless Zombies.

Rafkin, reduce by 1 SS

Nurse, add (0) Link, add 'Assistant 'Each time a friendly McMourning moves or pushes, this model may move towards McMourning. add 'All better now' Rng6" CC12 Rst- Remove all Counters and effects currently on target. This can not be used on the same model under the effects of 'Massive Dose'. add 'First Aid' CC13 Rst - Rng 2" 'Target performs a healing flip.'

Dead Doxy, reduce by 1 SS, change 'halves wounds' to 'inflicts 2 wounds', add Hard to Kill

Rogue Necromancy, reduce by 2 SS

Punk Zombie, increase WD to 8

The Hanged, add (+1) Nimble

Guild Autopsies, increase Cb by 1, increase WD by 2, remove rule which prevents them dropping a corpse counter

Crooligans, reduce by 1 SS, add +1 WD, +1 Df, add (+1) Reckless

Edited November 27, 2012 by Kriltic

[Fetid Strumpet]

Frankly on copycat I'd be happier if the DF went to something like 6 or 7, he lost the gun, and Mistaken Identity was a 1 action, not a spell, that didn't require LoS. I'd include Copycat almost every game for that ability.

Thematically it makes sense because what looked like Seamus for a good chunk of the game turns out to be the CCK all along, and it gives Seamus much better positioning abilities, which with the Avatar Attached, means you opponent can't just ignore the CCK, because Seamus could use it to jump into position, weather an attack on the off activation, and then hulk out.

Doxies are fine at 5 Stones, they just need a better role than what they are now, which frankly would be much easier solved by upping the dmg slightly on both her weapons than by adjusting the cost to be the same as a Rotten belle and adding additional abilities.

Crooligans would be fine if their ability to Teleport to each other was a 0 action instead of a 1 Action.

Nurses would be fine if they could Link.

I can't comment on the other suggestions too much.

Sybelle would be fine and dandy if you upped the moderate on her riding crop and on Shriek by 1 dmg each, and gave her Companion (Belle) instead of (Rotten Belle), and I personally would love the Call Belle ability to lose the mask Requirement, or require a lower Mask Value, or to go up in casting Requirement, but again lose the Mask.

[Pierowmaniac]

Right, rather than rewrite cards I've still kept with the trying to tweak the current things but perhaps this is more what people were looking for.

Totems

Grave Spirit, increase to 2SS

Lost Love, increase to 3SS

Copycat Killer, increase Cb for .50 Flintlock to 4, ignore 'suffers 1 wound and' under .50 Flintlock, remove :masks from Mistaken Identity and reduce CC to 10 then add 'Upon switching models make one .50 Flintlock strike with the Gunfighter rule.

Vulture, Reduce to 1 SS, Eyes and Ears only reduces CA by 2 then add 'When Nicodem uses Arise or Bolster Undead, this model will also immediately use the same action (for free) but with half the normal range of the action.

Minions

Flesh Construct, reduce by 1 SS, add Regeneration 1

Mortimer, reduce by 1SS, Exhume ignore 'Flip a fate card... If the card is a :crows ' add trigger '( :crows )You're a big one [Exhume] Two corpses may be placed instead of one. Change 'Make all my own friends' to a (2), add (0) 'Yes Sir?' Charge directly towards a friendly Nicodem, no stikes are made should this bring Mortimer in melee range of Nicodem. Add to Fresh Meat, this also affects Neutral Mindless Zombies.

Rafkin, reduce by 1 SS

Nurse, add (0) Link, add 'Assistant 'Each time a friendly McMourning moves or pushes, this model may move towards McMourning. add 'All better now' Rng6" CC12 Rst- Remove all Counters and effects currently on target. This can not be used on the same model under the effects of 'Massive Dose'. add 'First Aid' CC13 Rst - Rng 2" 'Target performs a healing flip.'

Dead Doxy, reduce by 1 SS, change 'halves wounds' to 'inflicts 2 wounds', add Hard to Kill

Rogue Necromancy, reduce by 2 SS

Punk Zombie, increase WD to 8

The Hanged, add (+1) Nimble

Guild Autopsies, increase Cb by 1, increase WD by 2, remove rule which prevents them dropping a corpse counter

Crooligans, add +1 WD, +1 Df, add (+1) Reckless

totems

Just change the Vulture and Copy cat killer, so they are usefull and the other two don't need changing.

Minions

Flesh construct No comment - no experience playing

Mortimer Um not sure but perhaps not quite so drastic a change is needed if any.

Rafkin Yeah -1SS is about right

Nurse I think these can work with just the -1SS cost or an healing ability. The ability to remove the sacrificing effect from massive dose would break them imho

Dead doxy Just drop -1SS no need to change anything else, they work fine on the table when summoned and I think 4SS would be the right cost for them as they currently are. They have a good set of spells that people just need to utalise more.

Rogue Necromancy Tough one as you dont want him to be too cheap, but still need him viable in starting crews. I'd say -1SS normally but Molly gets an extra -1SS discount

Punk Zombie no change needed, especially with book 4 summoning options.

The hanged Maybe just +1 Walk instead of nimble. but really I dont see any change being that necessary really.

Guild Autopsies Remove the non corpse counter rule and increase WD stat

Crooligans Make the mist a (1) Action instead of spell. They have high enough Df already (7 in the mist)

Additionaly

Dead Rider +1 SS

Edited November 27, 2012 by Pierowmaniac

[Gruesome]

Crooligans would be fine if their ability to Teleport to each other was a 0 action instead of a 1 Action.

I like that, and I would also like to see their "interact push" change to an optional "interact push OR walk".

So, they could destroy evidence and get away OR pick up treasure and walk with it.

If they had those things, I think they would be a serious contender at their current costs for our objective grabbers vs. Night terrors...

Additionaly

Dead Rider +1 SS

Its interesting to me that people think Dead Rider should cost 11SS...

He sort of does cost 1SS in most lists anyway because you need a Grave Spirit with him or you are risking way too much with his death. He is 1/3rd of your crew. If he dies, you are done and he drops 1 corpse counter when he goes down.

He is definitely my favorite rider, but he is already the most expensive.

Is he REALLY better than Von Schill? Because that is who he would now cost more than.

Edited November 27, 2012 by Gruesome