Time to give old models new love?

[PandaBearGuy]

I know that the key to a good business is constantly creating new products to sell, but with the fourth book release I'm beginning to worry that Malifaux will succumb to 3 things:

1) become an arms race complete with (whispers) power creep.*

2) result in crews with detail and size of models clashing heavily based on age.**

3) Too many options***

* A (potentially flammable) idea would be to have a thread where people could go to suggest new rules for old models (I'd love to see hoarcat prides get companion to each other).

** I wouldn't mind having a Gencon year be spent on nothing but resculpting and re-ruling old models. I started getting sad with my ice gamin when the fire gamin came out looking so much cooler, but now that the metal gamin are out I can't even look at my little frozen buddies (or Line-dancer, Come-at-me-bro, and Hand-shaker as I call them).

*** I don't know where I stand on this one. On one hand, I don't believe games like chess would ever have gotten to be such a skill-based game if new pieces were constantly added. In other words, I'd rather beat my opponent because I out-thought him than because I bought new models from a book he hadn't read yet. On the other hand a game which doesn't evolve runs the a higher risk of stagnating than becoming "classic", and from a (justifiable) business view a game without new product relies on new players as opposed to new players AND old players buying merchandise. And is "too many options" ever a bad thing? If I don't like it then I can make a deal with friends to only play the game with certain books.

At this point I'm beginning to ramble, but I'd like to read your thoughts, with as much unbiased detachment and civility as we fanboy/hater/trolls can muster of course.

Edited September 11, 2012 by PandaBearGuy
I suck at organization

[NeuroFire]

* A (potentially flammable) idea would be to have a thread where people could go to suggest new rules for old models (I'd love to see hoarcat prides get companion to each other).

I've thought about this before. There are several models (from more than just the first book, too) that could become infinitely more playable with a single rule change. I know there might be problems involved with changing the old models, even single rule changes, but I still kind of wish they would.

[mistercactus]

Not sure why, but I've a feeling next Gen Con will feature Malifaux V2 with everything rebalanced and plastic models replacing all the current metals.

[the imp]

While companioned hoarcat prides does conjure visions of adorable cuddly waves of death, I think that might push them a little too over the edge. I agree that some tweaks are needed to level the playing field, but we don't want to over-correct and fall to power-creep.

I agree with Mr Cactus. The next stage of game design will have to be a general realignment of all models. I expect that it will also see a significant revision of Master and Henchman roles. Henchmen do not seem to have caught on as desired and I think some clarification in that area, along with special forces, will be beneficial to the overall game.

It will also be an opportunity to further diversify the factions, or to reassert the five-faction model. I see the next year being an opportunity for the design group to use Ten Thunders to test the waters and decide how receptive we are to further lateral expansion. If they do well, I expect that we'll see many of our extant masters and minions straddling dual factions in the next iteration of the game rather than the current, sometimes confusing, hiring permissions and restrictions.

I'm torn on the subject, myself. As a figure collector, I love variety. As a gamer, I crave simplicity and intuitiveness. More factions equals more exciting models, but keeping it to the original five would make the game easier to comprehend and faster to introduce to people. And now I'm rambling...

[Cats Laughing]

I like the Hoarcats: Companion (hoarcats) idea.

I would also be interested in seeing a few ideas for maybe an additional rule or two for book 1 models that are regularly considered subpar.

I don't know if this would really help much, but I wonder if the Ice Golem might be a more viable selection if given an auto-tome to his Df stat (therefore the auto-trigger) and/or if Statue was made into a (0) action, thereby giving some minor mobility boost (can wk twice and statue at end) while tempering it with a 'boost friends or become hard to wound' choice. Perhaps Ice Gamin would benefit from the same changes.

I know there are other models people would like to see boosted, but the above are my areas of concern/'knowledge', so I'd like to see other ideas.

[NeuroFire]

I would also be interested in seeing a few ideas for maybe an additional rule or two for book 1 models that are regularly considered subpar.

If the Death Marshal (2) Pine Box spell included some movement (e.g. "Move this model up to its charge towards target model...") it would make the models much more attractive to me. I almost never get a chance to use the spell because it's short-range and eats all their AP. That or make it a (1) spell.

A Nurse, as they are, is almost a one-turn model; their job is to dose something up and send it off to die. The healing spell almost never gets used because it requires base contact (if I'm remembering right.) Give a Nurse Link, and she's a useful model worth her points.

She's not a book one model, but Avatar Perdita desperately needs something to make her more defensive. The logical solution would be to give her Black Blood to go along with her Neverborn characteristic.

(Not really a fix, but by all rights the Executioner should be Ruthless, something that didn't come along until book two.)

[Korrosion]

Ice Golem = 9 SS

Rail Golem = 9 SS

One of these is priced wrong.

For another example compare the steamborg executioner to anything else that costs 10SS.

[Gruesome]

Ice Golem = 9 SS

Rail Golem = 9 SS

One of these is priced wrong.

For another example compare the steamborg executioner to anything else that costs 10SS.

Lelu, Lilitu, Mortimer...

One of those doesn't belong. You know my view... Firsthand...

[rancor709]

I say a lot of the 4th book helps make older models more playable through attractive combinations and new ways of using them. Now that out of the way I think there are some that definitely could use a bit a love and slight new coat of paint. I'm looking at you malifaux child.

No game is perfect and at somepoint you'll see some tweaks, but nothing says you have to play optimally ever game. Some times you take things just for fun and that should also be the time for your opponent to do the same. In a perfect world we could all take every model and strategy will rule the day which I think for the most part it does. Except I've yet to find a moment when Malifaux child would even be not terrible, if anyone has done this please let me know, redjoker not withstanding.

Play your game and have fun, because at the end of the day fun is what matters.

---------- Post added at 08:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:17 PM ----------

Now all that said there should be clear definition of each price of model in stones and those features should be fairly universal. Again in a pure book 1 Ice Golemn was cool, literally now he just doesn't stack with Robot Jock.

[Korrosion]

Lelu, Lilitu, Mortimer...

One of those doesn't belong. You know my view... Firsthand...

Lilitu is priced just a stone or two to high and Lelu could use some armor or maybe object 2, something like that. I'M KIDDING, please don't shoot me!

[decker_cky]

I'll give my feedback on a few of the arcanist beasts I have decent experience with:

For Myranda, I think she deserves a pretty significant makeover, but I think removing the second tome from shapechange would be enough to make her useful.

Razorspine rattler should get some armour. Not sure if that would be enough to make it a legitimate choice, but it makes sense and is a definite step in the right direction.

2 alternative suggestions for the Sabertooth Cerberus:

-11 wounds: Adds some resilience, and makes the three-headed ability a little less flaky.

-Drop it a soulstone and improve it's Ca to 5 or so.

Onto something that's sure to be a favourite to update: Malifaux child. I suggest it have an adjusted soulstone cost of 0 and gains "Comes cheap". Still wouldn't be favoured over any other totem, but might actually find a home in Viktoria lists and other lists that end up without totems. Insignificant + terrible stats mean it's really only worth about zero.

Edited September 12, 2012 by decker_cky

[Forar]

Lilitu is priced just a stone or two to high and Lelu could use some armor or maybe object 2, something like that. I'M KIDDING, please don't shoot me!

Should probably drop Stitched Together's a stone or two, those things are vastly overpriced. >.<

/sarcasm

[tadaka]

Malifauc child easy fix. If this model is alive at end of game score one vp

[CRC]

For another example compare the steamborg executioner to anything else that costs 10SS.

You picked a bad SS point. Here's the list:

Lucius

Dead Rider

Rogue Necromancy

Bad Juju

Mature Nephilim

Bishop

Steamborg wins a lot of those comparisons. (oh and before you talk about how good the RN is, SBE would be ungodly if you could summon it directly into melee...)

[Gruesome]

I am not sure anyone is trying to argue the RN is worth 10 points. It is the ultimate glass cannon.

However, its a GREAT summons and with Chiaki coming to remove its summoning-slowness, it will be even better.

[Cadilon]

I am not going to get into specific model costs or weighing the benefits of any one model. I do think there are models that make you just kinda scratch your head when you look at them.

But on the other hand, isn't it somewhat nice to have a group of 'underdog' models in the game that provide some fodder for experimentation and as an interesting handicap for better players? Perhaps these models ultimately have little value, but I can see some players getting great enjoyment out of trying to solve their puzzle and getting them to work far better than anyone guessed they could have.

[CRC]

Underdog models are an important part of game balance. However, they should be interesting.

Good underdog models are stuff like December Acolytes, Myranda, or the Wendigo. They have neat abilites, and in the hands of a lucky or skillful player they can be worth taking.

Bad underdog models are stuff like the Ice Golem or the Malifaux Child. They are not only weak, but boring.

[Dumb Luck]

Warpigs should be six points. Gracie is seven and much more useful.

Lenny should be four points. Slow in a crew with one less card in their hand (in before Survial of the Fittest) is just not great.

All Outcasts masters should be given a cache of at least two stones.

Taxidermist could do with being a point cheaper, considering that you can only take the unit it is there to control if he's on the board.

Come at me, Omenbringer.

[Cunning]

All Outcasts masters should be given a cache of at least two stones.

Completely disagree. Maybe Som'er but def not Hamelin and I dont really think Viks or Levi need it.

[decker_cky]

All Outcasts masters should be given a cache of at least two stones.

I don't think they should all have 0 stone caches, but Hamelin and Leveticus certainly have no issue with 0 soulstone caches. I think giving 1-2 soulstones to some of the lower powered masters that need it could be justified, but saying all of them should gain soulstones is silly.

CRC - Myranda is a neat concept, but the luck aspect is too much. There's only 6 cards in the deck allowing her to transform, and transforming is her thing. Make that easier and she's a neat toolkit that can adapt to the situation.

[Dumb Luck]

I don't think they should all have 0 stone caches, but Hamelin and Leveticus certainly have no issue with 0 soulstone caches. I think giving 1-2 soulstones to some of the lower powered masters that need it could be justified, but saying all of them should gain soulstones is silly.

So that makes by definition, Viks and So'mer the lower powered masters? Not sure I'd agree there - Viks have won Adepticon two years running.

[PandaBearGuy]

While I was hoping for this to be a more theoretical thread about all 3 of the points mentioned in the OP (instead of a community rebuild of book 1), I pointed out in a different thread that I would pay 9 SS for ice golem if the only change made was adding combat expert.

On a different point from the OP, what models do you guys think need a resculpt regardless of stats changes? From the models I own I would say ice gamin, molemen, maybe terror tots.

Edited September 12, 2012 by PandaBearGuy

[Forar]

On a different point from the OP, what models do you guys think need a resculpt regardless of stats changes? From the models I own I would say ice gamin, molemen, maybe terror tots.

You know what would be awesome? An idea my buddy had (@MikerofWorlds); that any Rare figure has as many sculpts available for general purchase as its Rare number. Obviously it'd be a TON of work to make enough to account for a Brawl, and the non-limited figures would still be left at however many Wyrd felt necessary, but it'd be nice to get a third Stitched, a second Silent One, a third and fourth Desperate Mercenary, etc.

[NeuroFire]

All Outcasts masters should be given a cache of at least two stones.

I completely disagree with this. IMO, a great many Outcast minions are undercosted, and it's (presumably) for this very reason. Quite a few Outcasts are fully worth their out-of-faction cost, and they of course cost a stone or two less for an Outcast master. (Yeah, I know some of them come cheap and some of them are no good, but my point is that an Outcast master can build quite a strong crew and still have a nice cache left over.)

On a different point from the OP, what models do you guys think need a resculpt regardless of stats changes?

I'd like to have an alt for the Watchers, just for the sake of variety (and they should be smaller, if that's at all possible, since they're technically ht 1 models but are bigger than Witchlings.) I'd also kind of like an alt for the Exorcist. I think all the Henchmen should get alts eventually, since the masters have alts. That's all that comes to mind right now.

[Dumb Luck]

I completely disagree with this. IMO, a great many Outcast minions are undercosted, and it's (presumably) for this very reason. Quite a few Outcasts are fully worth their out-of-faction cost, and they of course cost a stone or two less for an Outcast master. (Yeah, I know some of them come cheap and some of them are no good, but my point is that an Outcast master can build quite a strong crew and still have a nice cache left over.)

Only roughly a quarter of the faction (Mercs) can be hired by eveyone. The others can only be hired by one master (I think). I do not think that such a narrow hiring restriction for the lion's share of the faction justifies a cheaper soulstone cost.