Poison and Object/Hard to Kill

[retnuH]

Okay this is pretty pedantic but it's potentially important!

The poison errata currently states (emphasis mine):

"When a model is hit by an attack with Poison # or affected by an Ability with Poison #, increase the number of Poison Tokens the model has to the # indicated either after resolving the attack, or as indicated by the Ability. Each time the model begins an activation it suffers 1 Wd per Poison Token it has, and then discards one Poison Token."

The way I read this, is that it takes each Poison Token causes 1 Wd individually. Thus, something with Object 1 that has 2 Poison Tokens on it would take 2 Wds when it activates. Similarly, a model that is Hard To Kill with 2 Wds remaining that has 2 Poison Tokens on it would die when it activates - the first Poison Token would cause 1 Wd, reducing it to 1 Wd, and then the second Poison Token would cause 1 Wd, reducing it to 0 Wd, killing it.

Now, if the intent is that it that it is all applied in one go, the bit I've highlighted in bold should probably be worded differently to make this clear. Perhaps something along the lines of "Each time the model begins an activation, it suffers # Wd, where # is the number of Poison Tokens it currently has, and then discards..."

Edited September 10, 2012 by retnuH

[Hateful Darkblack]

Nope, it's a lump sum. When damage is separate sources, it's called out explicitly.

Edited September 9, 2012 by Hateful Darkblack

[retnuH]

Can you give me an example? Not that I don't believe you, of course, I'd just like to have one for reference!

I still think it would be nice if the clarification were worded in such a way that there's no ambiguity. I've seen others on the forums asking the same thing...

[therat]

When I started playing I thought poison was delivered as a lump sum, but someone told me that was not the case, pointing out the language in the rulebook. Since then that's how I've played it. After seeing this post I searched and searched for an answer somewhere else and cannot find one. Where is the language that says it's one way or the other?

[MudgeBlack]

Okay this is pretty pedantic but it's potentially important!

The poison errata currently states (emphasis mine):

"When a model is hit by an attack with Poison # or affected by an Ability with Poison #, increase the number of Poison Tokens the model has to the # indicated either after resolving the attack, or as indicated by the Ability. Each time the model begins an activation it suffers 1 Wd per Poison Token it has, and then discards one Poison Token."

The way I read this, is that it takes each Poison Token causes 1 Wd individually. Thus, something with Object 1 that has 2 Poison Tokens on it would take 2 Wds when it activates. Similarly, a model that is Hard To Kill with 2 Wds remaining that has 2 Poison Tokens on it would die when it activates - the first Poison Token would cause 1 Wd, reducing it to 1 Wd, and then the second Poison Token would cause 1 Wd, reducing it to 0 Wd, killing it.

Now, if the intent is that it that it is all applied in one go, the bit I've highlighted in bold should probably be worded differently to make this clear. Perhaps something along the lines of "Each time the model begins an activation, it suffers # Wd, where # is the # of Poison Tokens it currently has, and then discards..."

My understanding of poison is that it acts just as you spelled it out. That the hard to wound model would die.

[necroon]

I believe the clarification comes from "Damage Resolution" - Step one of which states "Total the damage being inflicted".

I could be wrong, however. Looking forward to an offical ruling on this.

[Dracomax]

My interpretation would be that it is one damage source that does damage based on the number of counters, such that it's Damage *. I.e. Object would reduce it. But I can see the other side of the argument, and I think it comes down to exactly how the wording is interpreted. hope it gets ruled on soon.

[TranquilitiesEnd]

I read it clearly as lump sum wounds. I've always played it that way, and no one at any tournaments I've played in has ever called it differently.

n tthe hard to kill interaction, it wouldn't matter which way poison worked, as hard to kill only kicks in fromdamage, and poison does straight up wounds, so a model with two wounds left and hard to kill will die to poison 2 on activation anyway.

[psychocamel]

Each time the model begins an activation it suffers 1 Wd per Poison Token it has, and then discards one Poison Token.

To me that's pretty clear language stating you take it as a lump sum.

If it was individual damage it would say something like "the model suffers 1 Wd from each Poison Token" where as the way it's worded indicated you take one lot of damage, determined by the number of Poison Tokens

[retnuH]

To me that's pretty clear language stating you take it as a lump sum.

If it was individual damage it would say something like "the model suffers 1 Wd from each Poison Token" where as the way it's worded indicated you take one lot of damage, determined by the number of Poison Tokens

From http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/per

"1. for each; for every"

So to me, it's pretty clear language that you take each one individually

[psychocamel]

But that still doesn't make it so they are doing the damage individually... it's just the poison is damaging for each/every one.

[retnuH]

My point is that it's not clear - the language is ambiguous. You can see by the other posts that I'm not the only one who is confused.

I don't really mind either way which way it works; what I would is a clarification (on the Errata page) that is unquestionably clear, through the use of stronger/tighter language, examples, whatever. Just so that it is clear and self contained.

[psychocamel]

Oh sorry I didn't mean to sound condescending or anything.

It's just I've always been a hardcore nerd gamer (rpg board games, table top, ccgs and so on) and that wording is fairly common with those. So I automatically thought "oh sure it definitely means this"

But even saying all that I do of course understand why you want it settled once and for all, ambiguous wording is the devil's plaything

[retnuH]

Any response for this? There doesn't seem to be any consensus, an official ruling would be helpful!

[CRC]

Any response for this? There doesn't seem to be any consensus, an official ruling would be helpful!

Things like this rarely get an official ruling. I'm not sure why that is, but it just doesn't seem to happen.

However, on your "no consensus point", you're the only person arguing that it's multiple damage sources. There are several against, and several undecided, but you're the only "in favour" voice.

I, btw, think it's a single damage source, because every time we've had an argument like this one, it's always been a single damage source.

[therat]

However, on your "no consensus point", you're the only person arguing that it's multiple damage sources. There are several against, and several undecided, but you're the only "in favour" voice.

Well, as I said, it was explained to me that each poison counter was applied separately (albeit for a different purpose I now know to be moot), so there are other people who came to that conclusion independently.

[Paddywhack]

I agree with the single lump sum. A simple reading of it indicates this to me (although obviously not to everyone). It says take 1 WD for each poison token it has. So 1 token, 1 WD, 2 tokens, 2 WDs and so on. I see nothing that indicates they are individually given out vs lump. There would need to be another sentence to make me believe that it was one at a time (in fact, wording to that effect - one at a time). This is just my reading of the rules and seems to be the most widely accepted.

[Twisted Metal]

I hate for the Necro on this thread but this issue is still coming up in my group and its still unresolved.

[Subötai]

It is one lump sum, as per the Damage Resolution steps quoted earlier in the thread.

[Darios]

but actually its just wounds and therefore rules for damage don't apply.

[Twisted Metal]

Which is why I re-bumped this thread. For every one person sayings its a lump sum there another saying its 1wd per counter taken one at a time.

[Ausplosions]

I doubt it is all separate.

Poison 2 and a blight counter would do 6 wounds to a regular non-object model total.

Poison 2 and 2 blight counters, 9 wounds total.

And so on and so forth.

[Mister_Q]

It has been pointed out a couple of times already in this thread, but Poison does Wounds, not Damage. Things like Hard to Kill work on Damage, and thus have no effect with Poison. It makes no difference if the Poison counters are taken as a lump sum or individually.

[FearLord]

It has been pointed out a couple of times already in this thread, but Poison does Wounds, not Damage. Things like Hard to Kill work on Damage, and thus have no effect with Poison. It makes no difference if the Poison counters are taken as a lump sum or individually.

But it does make a difference with Object, which reduces wounds and not damage.

[Mister_Q]

Fair enough. Is Object the only characteristic where this would be an issue? Everything else works on Damage, doesn't it?

I'd be playing it as a lump sum. It's Wounds taken from a single source (Poison), not "a Wound from this Poison, then this Poison", etc.

[Twisted Metal]

Spirits?

Edit: Never mind spirits are damage as well.

Edited December 6, 2012 by Twisted Metal