Self-targeting

[Grifonetto]

When a model targets itself, does it still have to flip to defend? Thinking of Lilith targeting herself with Transposition, here.

[minmax]

Lilith can not target self. U can not attack urself. It is annoying

[Ozz]

If there is a resist on the spell, you are unable to target yourself. Unless it states you can in the spell (though i don't think one like that exists atm)

[Mach_5]

I believe minmax and Ozz have it right, but going through the books I'm having a hard time figuring out why that is.

From the rules manual:

Pg 18 "Spells that require a Resist Duel... is considered an attack, ... A model cannot attack itself unless the attack's description states that it affects friendly models"

from Lilith's card:

"Transposition: Target 2 models when casting this spell. If both models fail in resisting the spell, Switch the 2 target models."

As far as I know, you can freely target/attack friendly or enemy models unless the spell description specifies only enemies or only friendlies as a target. So is this just a case of "you can target friendly models, but since the spell doesn't state it explicitly you can't target yourself" or was there something else I'm missing?

[EnternalVoid]

You said it yourself in the page 18 part, a Model cannot attack itself. Any spell that has a resist duel to it counts as an attack. So if Transposition did not have a resist duel, Lilith could target herself, but because it does she can not target herself. So a spell like Invigorate can target yourself as it does not have a resist duel, thus does not count as an attack.

[Grifonetto]

Good to know -- thanks, everybody.

[Mach_5]

You missed the last part of the quote, "A model cannot attack itself unless the attack's description states that it affects friendly models"

Transposition *can* target friendly models, since it doesn't say target enemy models. I believe it's more or less common knowledge that Lilith can't target herself with Transposition, I think the rules marshalls ruled on it before, but I am still wondering why. The only explanation I can see is that because the spell description doesn't state that it affects friendly models you can't target yourself (even though you can target friendly models, since it doesn't state you can't).

Unless, as I said, I'm missing another piece of the puzzle...

[Grifonetto]

Well, first of all, is there even a spell in the game that 1.) is an attack, and 2.) specifically states that it may target friendly models?

[Mach_5]

Nicodem's Decay is one... maybe the only one.....

[Grifonetto]

So Nicodem can Decay himself, but Lilith can't transpose herself -- I'm just thinking that the language of the rules may be a design tool that lets them tweak the power level of spells by turning on or off the "attacking yourself" option . . .

[egoon]

A spell saying 'target friendly models' and 'target yourself' is not the same thing.

You cannot target yourself with an attack unless the spell specifically says you can target yourself. A spell that allows you to target friendly models does not necessarily allow you to target yourself.

Oh, and Nicodem can't target himself with Decay. He can be hit by the blast, but that's about it...

[baskinders]

A spell saying 'target friendly models' and 'target yourself' is not the same thing.

You cannot target yourself with an attack unless the spell specifically says you can target yourself. A spell that allows you to target friendly models does not necessarily allow you to target yourself.

Oh, and Nicodem can't target himself with Decay. He can be hit by the blast, but that's about it...

Yeah so that's what I thought but I've just checked the RM and I think Mach5 is right?

It definitely says "A model cannot attack itself unless the attack's description states that it affects friendly models." on pg18.

I can't find anywhere where it says you can't attack yourself unless it specifically says you can "target yourself", only that you can target "friendly models". So this means that Lilith can't still cast Transposition on herself, because it doesn't specify that it affects friendly models, but Nicodem could definitely cast Decay on himself, given that it does specify friendly models?!?

[egoon]

It definitely says "A model cannot attack itself unless the attack's description states that it affects friendly models." on pg18.

Must have missed that. Sorry.

And I thought that all spells could target friendly models unless it states 'target enemy model'.

[Ausplosions]

Must have missed that. Sorry.

And I thought that all spells could target friendly models unless it states 'target enemy model'.

They can. You just can't attack yourself if the spell has a resist.

[baskinders]

They can. You just can't attack yourself if the spell has a resist.

...unless it's specifically says if affects friendly models, like Nicodem's Decay.

[Ausplosions]

...unless it's specifically says if affects friendly models, like Nicodem's Decay.

Nicodem CANNOT attack himself with decay. He can attack a friendly, and be hit by the blast. He is not attacking himself. You cannot attack yourself.

[Dracomax]

Nicodem CANNOT attack himself with decay. He can attack a friendly, and be hit by the blast. He is not attacking himself. You cannot attack yourself.

I think the problem is that RAW seem to say he can.

p.18 of the Rules Manual says "A model cannot attack itself unless the attack's description states that it affects friendly models." or, to phrase it differently, a model can attack itself if the attack can target friendly models, i.e. Decay.

Unless there is another rule that says otherwise, then by that rule, there would seem to be no reason that decay couldn't be used by Nico on himself. No one is saying it can, or should be. Just that as written, the rules seem to say it can, and we would like to see specifically why it can't.

Edit:

If it is something that has been ruled in the forums, then a link would be appreciated. I have a friend who plays Nico, and he responds poorly to "it's on the forums"

Edited August 13, 2012 by Dracomax

[Sybaris]

Just to add a little out-of-the-box insight, Lilith does transposition herself in the fluff (with a crow when she visits Zoraida)...so who knows what the intent is. I am aware that fluff is not always followed when gameplay is concerned, but it might still be an indication of the intent.

Lastly, the spell mentions to select 2 models, which implicitely means all type of models, be they friendly or enemy...they probably didn't want to write both words to save space and/or not sound redundant. Besides, if "2 models" do not include friendly models...it probably shouldn't include enemy ones, so what models would be left to target?

As far as targetting goes, a model always has a line of sight to itself.

Edited August 13, 2012 by Sybaris

[notmikehill]

Just to add a little out-of-the-box insight, Lilith does transposition herself in the fluff (with a crow when she visits Zoraida)...so who knows what the intent is. I am aware that fluff is not always followed when gameplay is concerned, but it might still be an indication of the intent.

A primordial magic could've been anywhere during that dialogue, waiting to switch em

If it doesn't state what type of model it hits then it pertains to enemies. You can also target friendly models too. It's due in part to the ambiguity of the spell. But you wouldn't hit Lilith because you can hit enemies as well.

[Sybaris]

Primordial magic? heh...why not, i am not even sure the writer thought of that one.

As for the rule, I am probably lost you there, sadly. It's like the game requires a degree in cross-referencing and proof reading...

To me it reads simple: you pick any 2 models you can target. Since a model always has LoS to itself, Lilith can target herself?

It would be odd to me that only 1 model in the game (Nicodem) has the specific wording in order to attack itself, but anyway...

:Confused_Puppet2:

[ravenborne]

Since Decay is designed to be a healing spell for undead, Nicodem targeting himself does not seem that strange by design intent.

I would like to hear the final ruling on this.

[011121]

Doesn't decay have a blast? If so he could catch himself in the blast freely even if he can't target the spell straight at himself.

[Ausplosions]

Doesn't decay have a blast? If so he could catch himself in the blast freely even if he can't target the spell straight at himself.

Yeah, we all understand that, but the question is that as RAW can Nico target himself with Decay.

And if he can:

As Lilith's Spell says "Target 2 models" but does not state friendly or enemy, why can't she also?

[Golden]

Decay doesn't specify that you can attack friendly models, it just states target model, and therefore you can't use it on Nicodem. It lists an alternate effect should the spell, or the blast, hit a friendly undead model, in this case it is heal 2 wounds. The only reason Nicodem can heal from a blast that might hit him is because of Embrace Death.

[Mach_5]

Food for thought in past threads here and here.

Both talk about the exact lines we're discussing here, and both have rules marshal input, though neither are terribly conclusive to the subject of Transposition (though Keltheos does say Nico can cast Decay on himself in the first thread).

---------- Post added at 12:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:07 AM ----------

Or in fact there's this thread from the new FAQ release where Keltheos says Lilith can't target herself with Transposition, although his reasoning is simply that it's an attack and he doesn't say why the "unless friendly" clause doesn't apply.

For the record, if the intention is that Lilith can't transposition herself then I think the "unless friendly" clause is unnecessary; simply state that models cannot attack themselves. If there's a specific reason why you'd want a model to be able to do so in future they could simply say "this model may target itself with this action" or some such, in the same way that pulses/auras don't affect the caster unless noted otherwise.

Edited August 14, 2012 by Mach_5

[Csonti]

Maybe the confusion comes from one of the FAQ's answer that has nothing to do with the issue about targeting yourself with an attack but it can be mixed together easily.

From the FAQ:

Can a model target itself with an Ability?

Yes, unless the Ability states it targets enemy models or other friendly models.

Spells are not Abilities (RM p18) so in regards of Decay or Transposition this answer is irrelevant.

The key to those - as some of you already quoted - is in the RM on page 18. The last sentence of the Attacks section says:

A model cannot attack itself unless the attack's description states that it affects friendly models.

In Decay's description you can read: Friendly Undead...

Meanwhile in Lilith's Transposition you can't find any Friendly reference. Of course the spell can be cast on (other) Friendly models but in question of self-targeting this is irrelevant. You need to have the words of direct reference in the description of the spell to be able to cast it on yourself.

That's why Lilith can't do it and that's why Nico can. (And not just with the blasts but with direct targeting too.)

Hope that helps.

Edit:

And to answer the original question: yes, you have to flip when you target yourself but in case of Resist flips you can choose to tie the total and therefore lose the duel without cheating.

Edited August 14, 2012 by Csonti