Gencon Masters Tournament Predictions

[Gruesome]

I don't think player skill should be represented by how fast they take actions.

Skill is a pretty ambiguous word. One might say that it takes skill to recognize that you need to maximize your VP as quickly as possible within a tournament to ensure that time does not become your enemy.

I think there is far more than faction and tactical knowledge that makes up the best tourney players. They are maximizing everything within the confines of the tournament and are really good at it.

The best "turn 6" player on the planet may never take top 8 at a major tournament if he is not fast enough to help get there.

This reply is not intended to stem into a discussion of what factions might excel in different phases and thus have "disproportionate" results.

Just trying to give credit to the very good players that excel within the confines of a given tournament format.

Edited August 22, 2012 by Gruesome

[Merbak]

I was one of the could-have-been wins Lobo had, and I have to agree with him. I chucked Marcus, Von Schill and a pair of birds into his going-to-become aRamos group to try to stop it, and successfully slowed it down (while they all died horrible, burney deaths)... but given another 10-15 minutes, he'd have wiped my team from the board and had 2 or 3 full turns to flip the dynamite markers back over, with most or all of his team intact.

[Gruesome]

I was one of the could-have-been wins Lobo had, and I have to agree with him. I chucked Marcus, Von Schill and a pair of birds into his going-to-become aRamos group to try to stop it, and successfully slowed it down (while they all died horrible, burney deaths)... but given another 10-15 minutes, he'd have wiped my team from the board and had 2 or 3 full turns to flip the dynamite markers back over, with most or all of his team intact.

Would you have sac'ed them like that if time were not running out?

[nilus]

I strongly believe the tight time limits make it near impossible for certain masters to win. I have said since I started this game I wish rounds were 2 hours long.

I actually agree with you, it also is a matter of certain fast crews have an easier time swooping in and scoring in certain strategies.

The problem is 2 hour rounds make for very long tournaments(8 hours by my count, 6 hours for actual play time, two half hour breaks minimum and a half hour for reg and a half hour for scoring and awards).

Tournament organization is very tricky to get right, I think we Malifaux Henchman are still learning what works and what doesn't.

[notmikehill]

I actually agree with you, it also is a matter of certain fast crews have an easier time swooping in and scoring in certain strategies.

The problem is 2 hour rounds make for very long tournaments(8 hours by my count, 6 hours for actual play time, two half hour breaks minimum and a half hour for reg and a half hour for scoring and awards).

Tournament organization is very tricky to get right, I think we Malifaux Henchman are still learning what works and what doesn't.

This 100%. In my meta, we have some games where players would play for turn 5 but didn't manage to get to that point because of time constraints. It's tough to balance time and play because a long tournament could be just as bad as having short rounds.

[bashamer]

I played at gencon; had games go to turn 3 and end a few activations in, and had games go to turn 8 and complete.

Granted, I play fast; I've played hardcore in privateer press a number of time including with 30+ model count armies.

But the big trick is that you have to know your cards, or stick with what you know. If you have to read your card to see what you can do, you'll run out of time. If you read your cards to verify that you can do what you are planning to do you should be fine.

The time limits were fine for me, altough it would have helped if I knew the game better. As long as it was strategies I was familiar with it was pretty easy; the ones I had not really played before; not so much and made many mistakes. but the again I went into Gencon having played ~20-30 games. But I ahd an idea of the masters I was considering for wich strategies.

But yeah, if you don't have an idea of what you can do, and you don't have an idea of what you want to play, and you don't have your models easily accesible; well then time limits won't work for you.

[Merbak]

Would you have sac'ed them like that if time were not running out?

It was actually not intended as a last minute sacrifice it was a turn 1/turn 2 arrival, genuinely intended to put Ramos & crew down... cards were not with me though (only drawing 1 card above a 9 in 3 turns, and the only thing my 2 trappers managed to hit the entire game was 1 electrical creation), so it functioned as a sac for time in this case, but with full time the cards I was getting and the skill Aaron was playing with would have ended in a pure loss for me.

[Mach_5]

2h time limit isn't that bad. Yeah it's longer than 1.5h (obviously!), but I've played in a lot of wfb tournaments that had 2.5h time limits. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect some games not to finish, but you need to look at the % of games that finish. 75% completion seems reasonable to me, but if less than half of the games are actually played to completion than its probably time to increase the time limit.

[011121]

maybe go for 1.75 hour as an intermediate compromise and see how it goes. Keep stepping it up by 15 minutes as necessary....

[nilus]

2h time limit isn't that bad. Yeah it's longer than 1.5h (obviously!), but I've played in a lot of wfb tournaments that had 2.5h time limits. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect some games not to finish, but you need to look at the % of games that finish. 75% completion seems reasonable to me, but if less than half of the games are actually played to completion than its probably time to increase the time limit.

The problem is in the con honestly. I could easily dedicate a whole day to one Malifaux event at Adepticon can get people, in fact I plan to next year(Team tournament rounds are going to be 3 hours long and Masters may be 2)....But Gencon has the problem of being to big with to much stuff to do. Its a lot harder to fill 30+ seats in a tournament that goes longer then 4 hours at the con because people generally don't want to dedicate that much time to one event in the weekend. I honestly think that is why our Masters attendance dropped off so much(22 people, vs a Minimum of 30 for any of the 4 hour events)

But trust me, round times and how they are handled in tournaments going forward is high on the list of things to discuss once everyone from the con recovers.

[dookieagain]

The problem is in the con honestly. I could easily dedicate a whole day to one Malifaux event at Adepticon can get people, in fact I plan to next year(Team tournament rounds are going to be 3 hours long and Masters may be 2)....But Gencon has the problem of being to big with to much stuff to do. Its a lot harder to fill 30+ seats in a tournament that goes longer then 4 hours at the con because people generally don't want to dedicate that much time to one event in the weekend. I honestly think that is why our Masters attendance dropped off so much(22 people, vs a Minimum of 30 for any of the 4 hour events)

But trust me, round times and how they are handled in tournaments going forward is high on the list of things to discuss once everyone from the con recovers.

Has it ever been considered that maybe using chess clocks would be a way to go? Admittedly it puts more onus on you to know your cards and abilities inside and out, but that way a player would have a harder time playing for a round 1 or 2 point rush since by the nature of the clock time limit you'd have to keep things moving.

I'm fairly sure kings of war was designed with that in mind, but I personally haven't tried it since my days of high school chess club.

[Cadilon]

Has it ever been considered that maybe using chess clocks would be a way to go? Admittedly it puts more onus on you to know your cards and abilities inside and out, but that way a player would have a harder time playing for a round 1 or 2 point rush since by the nature of the clock time limit you'd have to keep things moving.

I'm fairly sure kings of war was designed with that in mind, but I personally haven't tried it since my days of high school chess club.

I've thought about this quite a bit and think it would be worth a try. The only problem I see is that 'control' of the game goes back and forth so much it would become tiresome. How many times has the game technically been on your turn but you're waiting on your opponent to make a decision on cheating or using a trigger? Would you have to hit your clock every time you are done with a flip? It would become rather onerous, but like I said, I am willing to give it a try I think.

[ravenborne]

I actually agree with you, it also is a matter of certain fast crews have an easier time swooping in and scoring in certain strategies.

The problem is 2 hour rounds make for very long tournaments(8 hours by my count, 6 hours for actual play time, two half hour breaks minimum and a half hour for reg and a half hour for scoring and awards).

Tournament organization is very tricky to get right, I think we Malifaux Henchman are still learning what works and what doesn't.

I came from Warhammer and Magic the Gathering, 10-15 hour days were standard for big tournaments. Maybe an 1:45 minutes?

---------- Post added at 10:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:33 PM ----------

Another suggestion, having run a few tournaments (and probably soon to run some Malifaux myself)...

Have a key that labels all the terrain, so players spend no time discussing it.

---------- Post added at 10:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:35 PM ----------

The problem is in the con honestly. I could easily dedicate a whole day to one Malifaux event at Adepticon can get people, in fact I plan to next year(Team tournament rounds are going to be 3 hours long and Masters may be 2)....But Gencon has the problem of being to big with to much stuff to do. Its a lot harder to fill 30+ seats in a tournament that goes longer then 4 hours at the con because people generally don't want to dedicate that much time to one event in the weekend. I honestly think that is why our Masters attendance dropped off so much(22 people, vs a Minimum of 30 for any of the 4 hour events)

With the game growing and so many new Henchmen, would it be possible to run some qualifiers before Gen Con? That sort of thing gets everyone super excited, it's one of the reasons that Dark Age (an inferior mini game) picked up so much steam in the Atlanta area.

[LoboStele]

And, for what it's worth, I don't think player skill should be represented by how fast they take actions.

I don't think I would ever say that a player's skill is judged just by their speed. But it's obvious when a player really knows what they're doing, and can play super fast, like Webster does. It's a real benefit to the overall game too, because then even the losing player at least feels like they had a full game in order to win it.

I was one of the could-have-been wins Lobo had, and I have to agree with him. I chucked Marcus, Von Schill and a pair of birds into his going-to-become aRamos group to try to stop it, and successfully slowed it down (while they all died horrible, burney deaths)... but given another 10-15 minutes, he'd have wiped my team from the board and had 2 or 3 full turns to flip the dynamite markers back over, with most or all of his team intact.

Hey man! Good game with you! And don't sell yourself too short. We were in turn 5, and you had delayed me long enough that even if we played out the game without time limits, I think I would have only been able to maybe flip over 1 marker in Turn 5, and then MAYBE 1 more marker in turn 6, but only if I could kill your remaining pieces. Only flipping 1 marker, even if I had got that Watcher into your deployment zone to deny your holdout, it still would have been a 4-4 tie. So I had to flip at least 2 markers over AND deny your Hold Out in order to win at that point. Or go for Sabotage. Any of which would have required at least the next round as well. So I think, played out even to the end of Turn 5, you still would have won. However, I did realize that I sold myself short on the Watcher's movement. I always forget the +1 Wk Ramos grants Constructs. Still would've been a 3-2 win for you though. The Marcus/Von Schill rush worked perfectly, and slowed me down too much to recover. It was well played. Even if you didn't get the kills, you kept me busy long enough for the rest of your crew to do their job.

Its a lot harder to fill 30+ seats in a tournament that goes longer then 4 hours at the con because people generally don't want to dedicate that much time to one event in the weekend. I honestly think that is why our Masters attendance dropped off so much(22 people, vs a Minimum of 30 for any of the 4 hour events)

I understand this to some degree. Then again, when I used to play Star Wars Miniatures, we drew 70+ for 3 years in a row for their equivalent of a 'Masters' tournament. Those were typically 10-12 hour tournaments when it was all said and done. Or at a minimum it was 8-9 hours of Swiss rounds, followed by 3 rounds of a Top 8 single elim the following day. Now, I think a very large part of drawing that many people consistently: prizes. And prizes that were announced WELL in advance of the con. So I think that this is something Wyrd could do better about as well, rather than just nebulous "stuff will be awarded to the top finishers". I think as the competitive community grows, more and more people will be willing to spend a whole day playing in a tournament, but I think it would be nice to know what they're playing for an have a well established/published prize plan.

As for chess clocks....No, don't think it will work. Slow play is something every game system has had to deal with over the years. In my experience, the best way to deal with it is via judges. If you think your opponent is intentionally stalling, then call the judge. I've had a couple ideas regarding this, so if it does become a problem over time, I'd be interested in having a separate discussion, perhaps in its own thread. I think you could do some neat things like penalizing players by taking away 1 SS from their cache for the next game or something.

[Wulfen]

The problem is in the con honestly. I could easily dedicate a whole day to one Malifaux event at Adepticon can get people, in fact I plan to next year(Team tournament rounds are going to be 3 hours long and Masters may be 2)....But Gencon has the problem of being to big with to much stuff to do. Its a lot harder to fill 30+ seats in a tournament that goes longer then 4 hours at the con because people generally don't want to dedicate that much time to one event in the weekend. I honestly think that is why our Masters attendance dropped off so much(22 people, vs a Minimum of 30 for any of the 4 hour events)

But trust me, round times and how they are handled in tournaments going forward is high on the list of things to discuss once everyone from the con recovers.

Do you know how long the Game of Thrones LCG tournaments ran? Much longer, and they had more participation. Not a knock, but I'm saying it can be done.

And my personal opinion, the small SS lists had just as much to do with it as anything. Some crews just work better at 25SS games, and our group's opinion was that those games are just too small.

[Gruesome]

I'd be interested to hear if anyone DOESN'T want longer time limits.

[Letux]

Another suggestion may be a few more minutes between pairings and the start if the round. Between declaring faction then masters then minions then schemes the games never really seemed ready to start when the timer did.

[Forar]

Do you know how long the Game of Thrones LCG tournaments ran? Much longer, and they had more participation. Not a knock, but I'm saying it can be done.

And my personal opinion, the small SS lists had just as much to do with it as anything. Some crews just work better at 25SS games, and our group's opinion was that those games are just too small.

I used to do 2 flights at Magic pre-releases, about 4 hours apiece, when I had the time, money and inclination, though I will freely concede in advance that there is a difference between attending an event for a single tournament, versus going to a convention and wishing to potentially see, do and experience dozens of other things as well.

The SS pool for Masters was 35, correct? I looked at the thread that lists the tournaments, and it seems that the beginners were 20/25, then the rest were 35, if I'm not mistaken.

I find I play much more quickly in the 20-25 range, but that does shift the game in a noticable fashion. Some crews/builds often rely on at least one massive SS sink figure in the 9 to 14+ range, and only having 1 to 16 ss left over for a totem, other support minions and objective takers can easily put the hurt on those crews or builds. But at the same time, the reduction of 10-15ss from the pool can translate into several fewer figures per side, which can lower the complexity of a given board by orders of magnitude, allowing for swifter play in that you don't need to account for so many extra models, ranges and abilities on both sides of the board.

Finding a compromise in the middle (allowing enough space/depth to allow a variety of crews to flourish, while being as expedient as possible) seems like a good way to go, especially with time limited concerns (other events/tournaments/what have you) in place.

[Wulfen]

I used to do 2 flights at Magic pre-releases, about 4 hours apiece, when I had the time, money and inclination, though I will freely concede in advance that there is a difference between attending an event for a single tournament, versus going to a convention and wishing to potentially see, do and experience dozens of other things as well.

The SS pool for Masters was 35, correct? I looked at the thread that lists the tournaments, and it seems that the beginners were 20/25, then the rest were 35, if I'm not mistaken.

I find I play much more quickly in the 20-25 range, but that does shift the game in a noticable fashion. Some crews/builds often rely on at least one massive SS sink figure in the 9 to 14+ range, and only having 1 to 16 ss left over for a totem, other support minions and objective takers can easily put the hurt on those crews or builds. But at the same time, the reduction of 10-15ss from the pool can translate into several fewer figures per side, which can lower the complexity of a given board by orders of magnitude, allowing for swifter play in that you don't need to account for so many extra models, ranges and abilities on both sides of the board.

Finding a compromise in the middle (allowing enough space/depth to allow a variety of crews to flourish, while being as expedient as possible) seems like a good way to go, especially with time limited concerns (other events/tournaments/what have you) in place.

The qualifiers were only 25ss, and the final invitational was 35ss. Greatly restricts lists, I believe, in certain crews more than others. Most of my Guild test lists only had 4-5 models; for a showcase tournament that's just too small.

I hate to harp on it, but a little more than hour for a game of Malifaux? Not nearly enough. I for one don't want any form of 'Malifaux Hardcore.' I've already quit playing one game like that.

[bashamer]

Thursday was 25, Saturday was 35, invitational was 35. Those are the only events I'm sure of.

[Cadilon]

Friday's two were 25ss as well.

---------- Post added at 03:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:41 PM ----------

Thursday

First into the Breach 25ss

A Wyrd Encounter (for beginners) 20ss

Friday

One Way ticket 25ss

Swing by the Hanging Tree (story encounter) 25ss

Saturday

Master of Malifaux 35ss

Sunday

Avatar of Malifaux 35ss

[MinimumPhase]

As of 30min ago the last update I got was:

Round 1:

6 NB

6 Arcanists

3 Outcasts

1 Guild

Round 2:

6 Nb (2 Lilith, 2 Zoraida, 1 Dreamer, 1 Pandora this round)

2 Arcanists (both playing Colette this round)

Although it is a week late, I wanted to note that one of the Arcanist players in Round 2 was not playing Colette. He was playing either Marcus or Ramos.

[Merbak]

If it matters to anyone, I can confirm what Phase just said: as an Arcanist in that second round, I can say definitively that I was not playing Colette as I do not have her. I was running Marcus (as I did for every game I played at GenCon).

[Dumb Luck]

The important events should remain at 35ss. Any Outcast other than henchmen tend to struggle at lower points since they need to buy their crew AND their cache.

[Gruesome]

The important events should remain at 35ss. Any Outcast other than henchmen tend to struggle at lower points since they need to buy their crew AND their cache.

I understand what you are saying in theory.

But outcasts took first AND second place at adepticon masters and it was 30SS. So, those players figured out how to make outcasts work just fine at less than 35SS.

IMO, at 35SS, some factions become "complete". They can cover all bases.

My recollection of the Adepticon feedback was that a majority liked the 30SS...

If time limits are truly public enemy #1 as they seem to sound for tournaments, then dropping 5SS sounds like a decent first step to me...

Edited August 26, 2012 by Gruesome