Silurid, Instictive and Leap...

[baskinders]

Had this also come up today. Instinctive means you can do two different (0) actions. And I've also read that spells that can only be cast once per turn can be "tried" more than once, I.e. if you spend an action on the spell and fail the casting flip the spell doesn't count as being cast and you can have another crack if you've got enough actions left.

So combining these two, can you attempt Leap with a Silurid, fail, and then use your second (0) to have another crack seeing as though you didn't "do" the action?

[Therril_83]

If Leap had been a (1)-spell that had said "may only be cast once per turn" then you could've tried it several times. However, since it is a 0-action, you may only spend that special type of action point once normally.

Silurids may make two 0-actions but they must still be different, with no mention of taking success into account. So I can not see that they would be able to try it twice.

[baskinders]

If Leap had been a (1)-spell that had said "may only be cast once per turn" then you could've tried it several times. However, since it is a 0-action, you may only spend that special type of action point once normally.

Silurids may make two 0-actions but they must still be different, with no mention of taking success into account. So I can not see that they would be able to try it twice.

Yeah I get what you're saying, but I'm a bit torn. Instinctual says "may perform two different (0) actions", so it basically comes down to the intent of what "perform" means. Does that mean simply spending a (0) Ap on the Talent and beginning it, as in what you're saying, or does "perform" mean actually doing the action, as in the case of the "successful cast" for once per turn spells. If it means the second then I guess that would be a reason to try twice

[Headcase2]

"Perform" means you can only try it once. So just one try at leap, in case of failure to cats you'll have to cheat if you really want to use it.

[baskinders]

"Perform" means you can only try it once. So just one try at leap, in case of failure to cats you'll have to cheat if you really want to use it.

Sweet mate, but what make's you say that? I just scoured the RM and the term "Perform" isn't ever defined and is used in several places as a word for doing stuff, so it's a little ambiguous here.

I guess I'm of the mind that it'd be ok for a model with Instinctive to have a second go at a failed to cast (0) spell, given that pg 53 of the RM says "If a Spell can be cast a limited number of times, this attempt does not count toward that limit" for a failed attempt at casting a spell. A (0) spell has a limit of 1 use, hence this would apply?!?

[Q'iq'el]

The action you perform isn't the Leap, but cast. Even if you fail to cast the spell, the cast action has already been taken, hasn't it?

Normally you can perform cast action as many times as you want, that is why you can repeat once-per-activation or turn spells until you run out of AP or succeed. But here you are limited by Instinctual to taking cast action only once.

[baskinders]

The action you perform isn't the Leap' date= but cast. Even if you fail to cast the spell, the cast action has already been taken, hasn't it?

Normally you can perform cast action as many times as you want, that is why you can repeat once-per-activation or turn spells until you run out of AP or succeed. But here you are limited by Instinctual to taking cast action only once.

Hmm, I don't think that's right either, because that woul mean you couldn't cast two different (0) spells if you had them with Instintual?

[Ozz]

The action you perform isn't the Leap' date= but cast. Even if you fail to cast the spell, the cast action has already been taken, hasn't it?

Not sure i get that ether, why is the action not leap?

Instinctual "This model may perform two different actions during its activation"

As for Kaeris Flame Wall (the card i have with a once per activation spell)

"This spell may only be cast once per activation."

The difference between the two sentences is that you may take two different 0 actions with Instinctual per turn. But With Flame wall, you may only cast the spell once per turn, and a spell is not cast unless you meet all the requirements (meet the casting total ect)

But for my example, unlike Q'iq'el i am of the thought that you take the leap action then try to meet the casting total rather than take a generic cast action, so we still need some clarification.

[Q'iq'el]

Spells ar not actions. Cast is the name of the action you use with spells. And yes, you cannot cast two different (0) spells with Instinctual. I thought it obvious, but I also have hard time recalling right now any Instinctual model with multiple (0) Spells to choose from.

Go to the beginning of Magic section and you'll have Cast and Channel listed as the actions used with spells.

On your character cards actions are listed separately from spells too.

[Therril_83]

Never thought of it that way, Q'iq'el, but I can't really make an argument against it.. as for a model with several 0-spells, no need to look further than Marcus. By your argument he couldn't cast Feral and Wild Heart in the same turn.

I don't think it's the intention, but I really can't formulate an argument to say against you as I fully see your point. I'll have to give that some thought before trying.

[Morgan Vening]

Never thought of it that way, Q'iq'el, but I can't really make an argument against it.. as for a model with several 0-spells, no need to look further than Marcus. By your argument he couldn't cast Feral and Wild Heart in the same turn.

I don't think it's the intention, but I really can't formulate an argument to say against you as I fully see your point. I'll have to give that some thought before trying.

There's an explanation from Keltheos in this thread, that seems to concur with Q'iq'els perspective, but there was no followup to the questions I had, similar to yours.

Morgan Vening

[Q'iq'el]

Never thought of it that way, Q'iq'el, but I can't really make an argument against it.. as for a model with several 0-spells, no need to look further than Marcus. By your argument he couldn't cast Feral and Wild Heart in the same turn.

He has other non-cast Actions he can use though.

I don't think it's the intention, but I really can't formulate an argument to say against you as I fully see your point. I'll have to give that some thought before trying.

I'm pretty sure it is the intention - whenever issues regarding AP and casting spells crop out, we are being reminded the name of the action is Cast (or Channel) and that the spells are not Actions themselves. Why should it suddenly work different here?

[baskinders]

So after coming back to this a day later, I've changed my mind and agree with you guys about not being able to have another go at casting a failed (0) spell. The reason is that, unlike (+1) Fast or any of the (+1) Specific Ap for doing something, (+1) Instinctual doesn't actually give you +1 0Ap to spend on another (different) action, it just says you may perform two different (0) Actions during your activation. I think I had in my head that it worked like the other +1 talents and gave you 2 0Ap. So yeah, you couldn't turn around a use you second 0Ap to have another Cast because you don't actually have one, but you can do another (0) Action if you want (ostensibly for free). All makes sense now .

Also I agree that RAW you can't actually cast 2 different (0) Spells with Instinctual, which is a little blow for old Marcus and a few others (Molly, Dreamer) but not massive.

Cheers!

[dgraz]

Also I agree that RAW you can't actually cast 2 different (0) Spells with Instinctual, which is a little blow for old Marcus and a few others (Molly, Dreamer) but not massive.

Cheers!

(Bold mine) Disagree. Any "cuddle" to a model that is already fighting uphill to be competitive is "massive".

Marcus already suffers from having too many abilities that should go together but can't be used together.....this is just one more and honestly if this is the way it works I'll probably never pick up Marcus again. It's already a headache sometimes when using him........compared to other models with non-competing (0) instinctuals and (+1) nimbles or any other bonus AP that Marcus has no access to.

After the total suck Avatar that he got, this ruling will probably be the death blow for me.

Edited August 6, 2012 by dgraz

[Ausplosions]

Yeah, can we get a confirmation that instinctual doesn't let you cast two (0) spells?

[NeuroFire]

I always thought the two (0) actions just needed to have a different name, not that they couldn't be the same type of action.

[Ausplosions]

I always thought the two (0) actions just needed to have a different name, not that they couldn't be the same type of action.

Yep, that's what I thought.

[Q'iq'el]

I always thought the two (0) actions just needed to have a different name, not that they couldn't be the same type of action.

It's not the same type of action. It is the action of the same name. It is called Cast. It doesn't matter which spell you choose for it, you always perform the same action with the same name. It's been clarified as such in the ruling in the linked thread as well - not sure what more of a confirmation can we get.

I'm not saying it is intended for Marcus to be suffering from that limitation, but in general that is how casting works - no matter the spell, it is always the same action (casting).

[Ausplosions]

It's not the same type of action. It is the action of the same name. It is called Cast. It doesn't matter which spell you choose for it, you always perform the same action with the same name. It's been clarified as such in the ruling in the linked thread as well - not sure what more of a confirmation can we get.

I'm not saying it is intended for Marcus to be suffering from that limitation, but in general that is how casting works - no matter the spell, it is always the same action (casting).

Yeah, just read the linked thread. Case closed.

You cannot use Instinctual to cast 2 (0) Spells.

This is because you are taking the (0) Action Cast., which you cannot do twice with instinctual.

Fair enough.

Edited August 7, 2012 by Ausplosions

[dgraz]

The sad part for me is that I have so many models that I only use with Marcus (Silurids, Waldegeists, Night Terrors, etc.) that probably won't see the table much anymore.

Admittedly, this is my own mistake for assuming I could use Instinctual for Feral and Wild Heart....might as well just delete Feral from his spell list now....can't see it ever really being used now.

I don't think it is truly a big hit to Marcus, honestly...Feral is probably one of his least used spells. Still, I win with him all the time, but this aggravates me....it's a hit he didn't need.

[Rathnard]

Well that's sad.

With me, I used Feral to pull off a Stare Down --> Alpha against Masters and other nasty models. If the Feral Failed, no big deal - I'd Wild Heart for 8"Wk and +2Df and get back to safety.

But if Marcus can't cast Wild Heart after Feral, well, I guess it makes Alpha even more of an all or nothing spell. Bummer.

[Paddywhack]

Hhhmmmm. Reading the rules through for the first time this is not what I thought either. It says on pg 32 on Actions that the name of the Action appears in bold after the () indicating the cost of ap. That would lead one to think that each spell is indeed a separate action. Even on pg 46 where is talks about casting it says that it casts the spell with that name (lower case cast), not that it is a Cast.

Oh well.

[Boardgameguy]

Well, I've been playing the Siliruids wrong. Crap!

Thanks for posting this