The less biased Great Joker Debate

[dgraz]

I agree with Malovane. The RJ is a risk. But it is on the player to mitigate that risk. If you haven't seen the RJ yet and the opponent's deck is low, maybe don't take the risk of putting your most valuable model where it could get taken out by an RJ flip.

There is also something to be said for redundancy. Don't put all your eggs in one basket. Having one model that your game plan hinges on is a bad idea. Take models that can overlap skill-sets so if you lose one, the loss is not so keenly felt.

I'm not overly competitive. I do like to win of course but I'm more interested in just having a fun, memorable game. So the comments about altering it for competitive play are really beyond me.........I suppose if enough people wanted that it might not be a bad thing. My only counter-argument to that is that I believe mitigating the RJ is part of a player's skill.

I agree also with Gruesome that people want to discuss the RJ and not so much other things. I have seen so many people suggest that strats/schemes be adjusted, but not too much by way of suggestions to that end.

---

The main reason I posted this poll was to try and put the RJ debate to bed (at least mostly). Let democracy settle it. If the numbers show that most people think it needs work.....well then I'm sure Wyrd will take notice. No need to keep up the debate.....the masses will have spoken.

But, if the numbers show that most people are fine with it as is.....then please let it go. Some of the people hotly debating against the RJ have come up with some cool ideas and I would love to see that intellect directed into something that almost everyone agrees needs work.....instead of going round and round on the same argument.

[Silas Cordell]

I vote no change, but I will add here, as I have in the other thread, that I would be fine with changing the red joker damage to severe+weak across the board. I do not support changing how the card works based on twists of fate.

[Ozz]

Is this a matter of casual versus competitive? Maybe the RJ should be tweaked for Gaining Grounds only. If a potential revision applied only to tournaments and official events, I for one would be satisfied.

Basically this is what i meant with my first post, i think the Red Joker is great fun for friendly games, and so i voted for change not being needed. But in competitive games it just has the potential to do to much damage.

[SRDragon]

All I am going to say is, No. I love how it adds the Randomness to a game. For me it has made some of my most memorably fun games with just a simple Flip and OMG!!! LOL!!!

[Dumb Luck]

As long as it keeps conjuring up these massive threads, I'd say no.

[karn987]

In a few words: Nope, doesn't need revision

[Q'iq'el]

Small minion hits big minion -> small minion lands a bad/average hit -> makes a flip -> flips red Joker -> big minion dies

i voted yes

Remember David and Goliath?

I bet Goliath's buddies voted yes too.

[WiccanScott]

One of the things that really drew me to Malifaux, besides my friends, was the card mechanic. The Red Joker and Black Joker, when in the deck, add a very small factor of uncertainty. This is can be a lot of fun. I groan when my 3+T attack yields no damage, and roar when my negative flip turns out to be an utter success.

However, it's easy to see why the Red Joker on a negative flip is not always the same as a Black Joker on a positive flip, as the outcomes depend entirely on the situation. Furthermore, this is the real question behind this discussion, namely "Does the Red Joker on a negative flip work to undermine the purpose of the Negative Twist"? I haven't played enough to have a definitive answer, but this discussion seems like it deserves a more critical eye than just "no" or "yes" answers. Personally, I feel really cheated when the Jokers are able to circumnavigate my defenses in a way that models who do not rely on twist protection do not suffer from. That's feeling though, and not evidence of whether or not the system works. Where are this board's card math experts?

[Fetid Strumpet]

For myself I personally don't mind too much that the Red Joker can possibly trump a negative flip. I have a minor issue with the extra dmg flip, but I can even accept that, a little. I agree it potentially could be removed in a more competitive format, but that not even a major concern of mine.

My only issue with the red joker is in how it relates to models with H2W, and only because the mechanic they use just happens to be neg flips. As a defensive ability, it is at least my perception, that many models that have H2W have lower Df Scores and slightly higher wd counts than those with just a higher Df, or armor, or Spirit, or something else that makes the model more durable. The issue is that factions which contain a much higher percentage of H2W, simply because of all the - flips that the player will see, will see a disproportionate amount of Red Joker on Dmg flips, because the opponent is flipping so many cards over the course of the game(s).

If other defensive abilities had potential drawbacks built into the basic mechanics of the game I'm pretty certain it wouldn't bother me. If Models with H2W had significantly more wounds than averagely costed models (again I do not dispute that they tend to high slightly higher wds) It wouldn't not bother me.

It also doesn't bother me (much) when a black joker comes up during a paired attack duel I'm making, or if a red comes up on the opponent's shot at my model while I'm in cover. I actually enjoy the cinematic moments these create, particularly because the swing is so rare that a truly critical flip is what they appear on.

My ONLY issue is in how the RJ relates to H2W, so if the decision were mine, and it isn't, I would not change the Jokers, I'd more change H2W so it either did something useful that a RJ couldn't screw up, or I'd change H2W to have an additional proviso that Red Jokers are either ignored on a dmg flip (I.E. can't be chosen as the card if flipped) or that a H2W model only takes severe from a RJ.

Just a personal opinion for general thoughts.

Edited July 12, 2012 by Fetid Strumpet

[Kabosan]

I voted No. I love the joker mechanic. I have had more fun games because of the red and black jokers than I have had games ruined because of it. Some of the best memories I have of the game were caused by the jokers. Like the time my opponent's Punk Zombie one hitted my Mature Nephilim for the kill on it's slow to die action in a tight game that I 'should have won'. We still talk about it to this day. I caused a loss when we both thought I would win it by a tight margin, but I still remember that game kindly.

On a second note, as primarily a Lilith player ( greatsword) the times I have cursed hard to wound because it denies me my auto 9+ damage on a cheated red joker flip vs the times I have seen it come out (even in my fishing trips with Collodi) In my experience the HTW argument is a lot more emotional than factual. Keeping your opponent from being able to cheat that game breaker is a much bigger deal than the off chance it will net them a rare card flip. HTW2 will keep you safe from Lilith with a red joker in her hand when nothing else will.

All of that said, however, I can see how it could be frustrating in a tournament or competitive environment. I could accept a change to tournament only rules regarding the red joker. Limiting the swings of fate in that environment does make some sense.

Edit: I would also like to add, in re: to the HTW issue... the times you see the red joker come up and kill your HTW model will vastly exceed the times your opponent will say "Gee, I would have been able to kill that model by charging it and cheating in a severe damage flip but decided not to do it because it had HTW and I wouldn't have been able to cheat damage". I know my Mature Nephilim struggles with this decision making problem every time he faces a model with HTW that's low on wounds. The problem I think with HTW is that it's benefits are largely invisible while it's weakness is highlighted dramatically every time it happens.

Edited July 12, 2012 by Kabosan
Adding to post

[Q'iq'el]

Furthermore, this is the real question behind this discussion, namely "Does the Red Joker on a negative flip work to undermine the purpose of the Negative Twist"? I haven't played enough to have a definitive answer, but this discussion seems like it deserves a more critical eye than just "no" or "yes" answers.

Actually the real question is "is this intended or not?". Because I've seen the assumption a mechanic undermining another mechanic must be an unintended occurrence, but I don't see any grounds for it.

If you think of the game in terms of a simulation of combat in Malifaux (not so realistic ), you have to think what the mechanic tries to accomplish and not what you think the intention behind the mechanic is.

IMHO HTW is an ability which, simply speaking, simulates something tough to kill. It's the zombie you have to behead or it will continue to come at you, it is a machine with steel torso bullets ricochet from etc. It is perhaps a balancing mechanic as well, but my strong supposition is the fluff is main reason for it. That is to say, models which narrative portrayals as such receive the ability. Then in turn it is reflected in their SS cost or lack of other stats/abilities to keep them balanced.

In contrast Red Joker mechanic represents a lucky occurrence. A lucky shot or a desperate gamble made by a minion or master in trouble. When you are within range of attacking a HTW model, you can always choose to run away, but you choose to charge forward. In terms of the game it is logical and more interesting when minions charge and kill or get killed. In terms of simulation, this is heroic action of someone who'd rather run away never to be seen again.

In almost every single case this heroic action will be for naught - the dagger will bent, the bullets will ricochet, the rotten flesh will fall off the undead without causing the creature any harm and the unfortunate hero will get repaid in full in a moment. But every now and again the shot hits the mark, the dagger severs some crucial oil line or the head cleanly pops off the rotten carcass. This is the Red Joker - a cinematic effect and a heroic feat against the odds.

Other defensive abilities may simulate something else. Being trained in combat means you can avoid damage more reliably than a zombie - the ability to avoid the opponent and not expose yourself giving his luck some chance. The Red Joker is still a possible occurence, the chances are even lower.

I don't see nothing wrong with this discrepancy between abilities which simulate different things. There is the question of the possible minion point-budget (which we can only speculate about) and whether HTW is priced right or not (which again we have little means to check).

Another issue worth considering is "how bad is the frustrating for the game?". Because frustrating is inevitable - every time you got a lucky break it means the other side had just got frustrated. In fact a very strong random factor is not only a source of frustration, but something people try to work around, limit. Simply removing it from the game may make it boring and perhaps less demanding, when it comes to skill needed to win.

Edited July 12, 2012 by Q'iq'el

[Math Mathonwy]

The main reason I posted this poll was to try and put the RJ debate to bed (at least mostly). Let democracy settle it. If the numbers show that most people think it needs work.....well then I'm sure Wyrd will take notice. No need to keep up the debate.....the masses will have spoken.

But, if the numbers show that most people are fine with it as is.....then please let it go. Some of the people hotly debating against the RJ have come up with some cool ideas and I would love to see that intellect directed into something that almost everyone agrees needs work.....instead of going round and round on the same argument.

Just as it's human nature to remember momentous occasions, it is also human nature to favour status quo. So how much of a majority is, in your opinion, enough to dismiss the concerns? Also, the question of the poll affects the answers. If the question had been, for example, "Would you think it's a bad idea that Red Joker would cause mereley severe damage on negative flips?" the percentages would likely be very different. Or "Would you think it's a bad idea to change Red Joker damage to Severe + Weak?".

I'm not trying to invalidate the poll, just noting something. I'm pretty sure that had a poll been made about the Alp cuddle or the Bury cuddle or, heck, even the Gravedigger cuddle the percentages would've favoured status quo.

[WiccanScott]

In contrast Red Joker mechanic represents a lucky occurrence. A lucky shot or a desperate gamble made by a minion or master in trouble. When you are within range of attacking a HTW model, you can always choose to run away, but you choose to charge forward. In terms of the game it is logical and more interesting when minions charge and kill or get killed. In terms of simulation, this is heroic action of someone who'd rather run away never to be seen again.

With a dwindling randomizer, it's not so much lucky as inevitable, assuming the Red Joker is still in the deck.

As to simulation, it's a very important part of any miniatures game, but if that game wants to have a competitive atmosphere, it needs to put design ahead of simulation when the two lock horns. A side discussion for another day would be "Does Malifaux want or need a competitive scene?"

[Keltheos]

We seriously need a subforum just for these debates...

[Kabosan]

I thought this was the subforum for this debate. :Hiding_Puppet:

[WiccanScott]

It doesn't really seem like that contentious of a topic to me.

[Grifonetto]

I voted "no", but I wouldn't mind if Hard to Wound was rewritten to prevent an RJ's extra damage flip.

[dgraz]

So how much of a majority is, in your opinion, enough to dismiss the concerns?

The sad part of it is that even if it were 99% it wouldn't be enough for some people and it would still clutter up pages of the forum and completely derail other discussions.

For me personally, if the numbers fell into a 50/50 range then I would think that the debates should continue and some testing be done. But if there was a 75% majority one way or the other then that would be enough for me. The poll is still pretty young so I don't want to jump to any conclusions yet, but I am surprised that out of almost a hundred people so far that one side is at a staggering 85%.....considering all the debate that has gone on about it.

So far, it appears that the biggest deal is not the RJ itself, but how the RJ interacts with HTW. So if some other topics come up about HTW it would make more sense to me. I don't play Rezzers and I've never gotten frustrated to have a 4ss Death Marshal get killed from an RJ strike....so I don't plan on being very involved in that discussion.

[Q'iq'el]

I'm not surprised by the results and I don't think it can be dismissed as a simple defense of the status quo.

Fate deck is the major feature of Malifaux, which differentiates it from other games.

Joker mechanics are very prominent - people learn from the very start how powerful these are and the manual has sections on using Jokers in all important sections.

In a way, the Jokers symbolize the different way outcome of the combat is determined in the game - even though they are the snake-eyes/carts, they still can be controlled and gambled with.

Personally I consider HTW issue minuscule comparing to the above. On the top of that, I think of it as dramatic rather than frustrating.

[osoi]

To continue on with that dgraz, I am primarily a Resser player and have been wracking my brain for the past few days on and off (a lot more today) on how to / if any adjustments to what Hard to Wound does, but havent got close to what I see as reasonable. I still honestly cant see if a change there is justifiable but I am trying.

By the way I think the Joker mechanic is fine, I'm not just supporting the status quo.

[morella]

+1 to Q'iq'el forever - you always express my thoughts on these issues better than I can.

[Gruesome]

I voted "no", but I wouldn't mind if Hard to Wound was rewritten to prevent an RJ's extra damage flip.

+1

That's where my head is at on this now.

[Guy in Suit]

If other defensive abilities had potential drawbacks built into the basic mechanics of the game I'm pretty certain it wouldn't bother me.

Magical Weapons. Weapons that ignore armor. Weapons that lower defense. All these exist aplenty - in fact I'd bet my left jewel that there are more weapons that fit in these categories than weapons that give a to damage!

So you are cool with the RJ then? Good to know.

[Gruesome]

Magical Weapons. Weapons that ignore armor. Weapons that lower defense. All these exist aplenty - in fact I'd bet my left jewel that there are more weapons that fit in these categories than weapons that give a to damage!

Everything you list is an ability of another model that must be chosen and paid for by their controller.

And none of them make armor or spirit WORSE, they simply ignore them.

If you want the BETTER analogy for being "the same sort of problem", its one I have brought up before.

What if armor, when a red joker is flipped does ADDITIONAL damage equal to its armor rating rather than subtracting damage?

Armor would still have the benefit of not increasing the likelihood of the red joker, it would just get the worst damage spike of all.

(BTW, I already voted no as I think amending Hard to Wound is the better approach)

[Guy in Suit]

Everything you list is an ability of another model that must be chosen and paid for by their controller.

So is hard to wound. If you hate it so much don't take models that have it...

And none of them make armor or spirit WORSE, they simply ignore them.

HTW is NEVER ignored except in exceedingly rare cases - AKA Von Schill. Even therare models like Lilith that have a to dmg that would be utterly wrecking face against models without HTW are instead on a level playing field that every not HTW duel is on. That is a HUGE difference as a previous poster explained. In this respect armor and spirit are weaker than HTW. Your statement quoted above is fallacious.

If you want the BETTER analogy for being "the same sort of problem", its one I have brought up before.

What if armor, when a red joker is flipped does ADDITIONAL damage equal to its armor rating rather than subtracting damage?

Armor would still have the benefit of not increasing the likelihood of the red joker, it would just get the worst damage spike of all.

You are missing the forest for the trees. This wouldn't be fair at all because HTW does NOT significantly increase the likelihood of the Red Joker damage being applied to your model because in DECREASES the ability of your opponent to cheat it in. Both players can INFLUENCE that likelihood throughout the course of the game. Your 'solution' for armor doesn't make any sense because it would apply when the Red Joker was cheated in for damage - which is how it appears on damage flips the majority of the time.

I've tabled a fair few novice Resser players in my day, and more than once via a RJ on a negative twist - But they sometimes fail to realize that I've been cycling my RJ through the deck the whole game rather than hold it, and that if they weren't HTW they only would have been tabled sooner. I don't divulge this after the game as it would seem unsporting - but if all this whining continues I may have to start the Enlightenment :Hiding_Puppet:

Edited July 12, 2012 by Guy in Suit